Cabinet Construction Techniques

[pfulghum]

As mentioned by Terry in this thread ...
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=31&post=30834#POST30834

I would like to discuss why some people dado a slot in the left, right, top, and bottom for a back for their cabinets.

I personally think that a full back (even 1/4") attached to the back builds a stronger box.

What are your thoughts?

-- pat

[bleeth]

Pat: My reasoning for a dado for a 1/4" back is this: We do mostly stain and topcoat wood boxes. I offset the top nailer for bases and top for uppers so we can pull the back out for finishing. This has the added advantage of allowing us to do a "pre-installation" with backs off for precisely locating cutouts we need to make in the backs to expose outlets or fit over plumbing. With two nailers and two stretchers the box pretty much self squares in construction and doesn't need the back for integrity or strength while allowing shooting the finish without splash.

Dave

[Ryan Patterson]

Pat,
There are a few reasons speed of assembly, some will inset the backs in on a sink base to allow more room for the pluming. I use a ¾” back you 5/8” with the back cut to fit inside the box. When I put the cabinet together I would see a line in the corner. I started to use dados to put this line on the side instead of the back. I think using a back that is applied to the back of the cabinet (back cut to the over all size of the cabinet) puts more stress on the strength of the cabinet. With CabinetParts CabinetParts (%20http://www.cabinetpartspro.com/) I still use a back that is ¾” with a rabbit to fit in the dado. I also assemble using pocket screws by having the dado I do not need as many screws in the back of the cabinet.

Look foward to hear how others use dados and build their boxes.

[wooddr]

Pat,

I used your Box Cutter program today and it was simply awesome. I cut out 8 sheets of melamine and other than my typo error on the width of one of my boxes, it work flawlessly. I have to say I am very impressed and grateful you are willing to share this program. As far as cabinet construction, I use the ¼ inch glued and stapled to the back with a 3” screw strip at the top of the box. I know this probably isn’t the true European way to do it, but I have been doing it this way for many years (over 20 I think) and never had a complaint or a problem. I think it makes for a nice strong box.

Pat, my vacuum table worked great as well. Thanks to Pat he gave me the incentive to do a vacuum table like his with a Fein lll vacuum. It’s nice to have Pat living a few miles away from my shop to share ideas and thoughts with.

Many thanks again Pat for a fine program and a lot of hard work.

Dirk Dunham

[terry]

Pat,
I'm glad you took this to the next level. I'm looking forward to being educated....

My reason for an inset back has to do with the look of the finished product. I build all face frame cabinets, so the face frame is what squares and stiffens the box. I like not having the stretchers, or nailers, show inside the box. It makes a very clean look. I inset the back 1/2", use 1/2" CD pine plywood as a stretcher behind the back (glued and nailed to the deck or top) and it is quite strong. As an added benifit, it helps when spanning a wall that has crooked studs as you have a half inch to play with. Also, you can plane the ends of the cabinet to fit an out of plumb wall if needed. I tried going back to just putting the back "on the back" and was just not satisfied with the look or the issues when installing. I don't consider strength to be an issue in the case of standard kitchen type cabinets. In a commerical setting it may be different along with some special cabinets in any setting, and I build those to fit the need. However, if you were to glue the back into the dado and made sure it was a snug fit (which I don't normally do) it becomes a very strong and stiff cabinet that you will never rack. I have a work table build like that. Light and very strong.

I only dado the ends of the cabinets. The top and deck of the cabinet are reduced in width by 3/4 inch (1/2" inset + 1/4" plywood back) and the back is nailed to these when the stretcher is put over the back. The shelves also would be affected. The inset and back material would need to be user defined, but your already doing a great job on that.

Speaking of shelves, I apply a 7/16" moulding to the front of my plywood shelves to cover the plys. You already allow for that as an "edgebanding", but as I see it the number you enter here affects the ends and front and back of the shelf. If you just added another field in that area for front edgebanding thickness that would cover it.

Enough for now. Thank you very much for your efforts. They are very professional and user friendly. Your mind thinks in a very clear and logical manner that is easy for the rest of us to follow. Simplicity requires a lot of effort. Thanks for that effort.

Terry

[stickman]

Hello all,

I build alot of garage cabinets, I've also built a few kitchen cabinets, some frameless and other face frame. With both the styles I use European hardware. When I build face frame style cabinets, I assemble the face frame using pocket screws. I build it with 1" - 1 1/4" stiles and then use a rail that ranges from 2" - 4", depending on where I use them. At the sides, I line the inside of the face frame up with the inside of the box. I like building this way, so that I can use the hardware, yet create a face frame look. Playing with the door overlays, changes the look and distance between doors.

As for the back construction, The sides are full depth, while the top and bottom are reduced 3/4" or even 13/16". I then fasten the back to the top and bottom shelves through the back. Then I run screws through the sides into the back. If it was to be a finished end, I would cut pocket screws, but most of the time on finished ends, I would sand and fill the screw heads and veneer over the ends.

Most of my cabinets have been built from white melamine or MDF clear coated or painted.

Morning, Jay

[kaaboom_99]

Pat, how do I go about getting the files that are required from Microsoft to run your software. My laptop is where I do all my design and as such I have never (nor do I wish to) let it on the net. Are these files downloadable and can the installation of your software be redirected to where they reside on a hard drive?
Thanks Pat. Looking forward to seeing what sounds like a nicely written piece of software.

[pfulghum]

Perry,
I will post a response in the other thread..

[terry]

Pat,
I thought of another reason I dado the backs. I try very hard to mount the cabinets, both upper and lower, so that the finish ends fit nicely to the wall. Then I don't need to put a trim against the wall. If you nail the backing to the back of the box then it is exposed at your finished ends. I have had several of my new clients ask that question specifically, because they don't want a trim at the wall.

Just another two cents worth.

Terry

[beacon14]

I cut the backs full width and height and staple them onto the cabinet. For upper cabinets I then staple and screw hanging cleats (made from the same 3/4" material as the cabinet sides) at the top and bottom, screwing through the backs and into the sides, tops and bottoms. This makes the cabinet lighter and less expensive than using 3/4" backs plus the hanging cleats make installation a breeze. The backs hold the cabinets square (so they need to be cut square). I apply an end panel which matches the doors wherever an end is exposed - I size it to allow a scribed fit to the wall or if the doors are mitered or edged on 4 sides it sometimes looks better to butt it to the wall or even leave a small gap.

For base cabinets I use 4" rails at the front and rear instead of a full top. There is another rail at the top of the back, that makes an "L" with the rear top rail. Still with me? The "L" is a very strong assembly, even with 4" melamine strips, and the back is then stapled to it as well as the sides and bottom. The 4" rips and hanging cleats come from scraps, increasing the overall material yield.

There are a few variations of this pattern, for sink cabinets, corner cabinets. etc., but these basic starting points get me out of most situations without having to dado or rabbet anything. Precise material thicknesses don't really matter. I staple the boxes together to align the parts and then use 2" "Grabber" screws to secure them. They go together quick and I've never had one fail (or I guess no one's lived to tell me about it?)