Faster, Faster... speeding up cutting, how?

[harryball]

I have a common activity to almost all our bat houses... cutting grooves. This is the A number one reason Mr. Bot moved in. Bonus points if anyone can tell me how to get a little more speed. Below is the grooving file for one of our bat house kits. I've commented out the pauses and jogs to home, it's called inside of a larger file.

It currently takes about 28 minutes to run a full sheet of grooves, that's 4 kits. It takes about 50 minutes per sheet total cutting time to get 4 kits. Mr. Bot spends the majority of his time ramping up and down as it moves across the 14" grooves.

It is basically a large S pattern 14" wide at 1/2" spacing that covers the 48" width of the sheet. The house gets narrower at the top so the path shortens for the last few runs. The depth is .015" so the 1/8" bit doesn't meet much resistance. I've got the move speed set at 10 ips and Mr. Bot currently jogs at 8 ips.

I'm wondering about 2 things... if modifying the ramp speeds safely is possible and/or if making the ends of the S's rounded turns rather than square would help.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm already running my other cuts at 6 ips / 18000 RPM in one pass. I'd like to get the file as close to 30 minutes as possible.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


'Turning router ON just in case it is off
SO,1,1
'PAUSE,2
'
MS,10.0,1.0
JZ,0.750000
'J2,0.000000,0.000000
J3,1.311299,0.968095,0.236200
M3,1.311299,0.968095,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,0.968095,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,1.468095,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,1.469040,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,1.469040,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,1.969040,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,1.973539,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,1.973539,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,2.473539,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,2.476441,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,2.476441,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,2.976441,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,2.976034,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,2.976034,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,3.476034,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,3.480329,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,3.480329,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,3.980329,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,3.979922,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,3.979922,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,4.479922,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,4.480744,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,4.480744,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,4.980338,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,4.980338,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,5.480338,-0.015000
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M3,15.311299,6.979066,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,7.979538,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,7.979538,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,9.479907,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,9.980029,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,9.980029,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,10.480205,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,10.980500,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,11.480686,-0.015000
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M3,15.311299,11.980694,-0.015000
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M3,15.311299,12.480869,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,12.480869,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,12.481884,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,12.981881,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,12.981881,-0.015000
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M3,15.311299,13.482057,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,13.482057,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,13.982352,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,13.982352,-0.015000
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M3,15.311299,14.482528,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,14.482538,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,14.982546,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,14.982546,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,15.482721,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,17.483501,-0.015000
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M3,15.311299,17.983507,-0.015000
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M3,15.311299,18.983631,-0.015000
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M3,15.311299,20.984297,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,21.484472,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,21.984594,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,21.984594,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,21.984772,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,22.484770,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,22.484770,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,22.485069,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,22.985065,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,22.985065,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,22.985245,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,23.485241,-0.015000
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M3,1.311299,23.985258,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,23.985258,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,23.985437,-0.015000
M3,15.311299,24.485434,-0.015000
M3,1.311299,24.485434,-0.015000
M3,3.811299,24.987482,-0.015000
M3,12.811299,24.987482,-0.015000
M3,11.811299,25.487883,-0.015000
M3,4.811299,25.487883,-0.015000
M3,5.811299,25.987011,-0.015000
M3,10.811299,25.987011,-0.015000
M3,9.811299,26.486620,-0.015000
M3,6.811299,26.486620,-0.015000
J3,6.811299,26.486620,0.236200
J3,14.081494,27.426348,0.236200
M3,14.081494,27.426348,-0.015000
M3,17.081493,27.426348,-0.015000
M3,18.081493,27.925957,-0.015000
M3,13.081494,27.925957,-0.015000
M3,12.081494,28.425083,-0.015000
M3,19.081493,28.425083,-0.015000
M3,20.081493,28.925486,-0.015000
M3,11.081494,28.925486,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,29.427532,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,29.427532,-0.015000
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M3,22.581493,29.927708,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,29.927708,-0.015000
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M3,22.581493,30.927723,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,30.927902,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,30.927902,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,31.427898,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,31.428198,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,31.428198,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,31.928194,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,31.928373,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,31.928373,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,32.428371,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,32.428493,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,32.428493,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,32.928493,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,32.928669,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,32.928669,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,33.428677,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,33.428688,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,33.928684,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,33.928864,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,33.928864,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,34.428860,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,34.429161,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,34.429161,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,34.929157,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,34.929337,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,34.929337,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,35.429333,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,35.429283,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,35.429283,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,35.929279,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,35.929459,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,35.929459,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,36.429466,-0.015000
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M3,22.581493,36.929474,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,36.929653,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,36.929653,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,37.429649,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,37.429947,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,37.429947,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,37.929947,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,37.930122,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,37.930122,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,38.430122,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,38.430244,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,38.430244,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,38.930244,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,38.930420,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,38.930420,-0.015000
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M3,22.581493,39.430439,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,39.930435,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,39.930614,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,39.930614,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,40.430611,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,40.430912,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,40.430912,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,40.930908,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,40.931087,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,40.931087,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,41.431084,-0.015000
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M3,22.581493,41.432098,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,41.932095,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,41.932274,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,41.932274,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,42.432281,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,42.432289,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,42.932289,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,42.932465,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,42.932465,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,43.432465,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,43.432762,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,43.432762,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,43.932758,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,43.932938,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,43.932938,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,44.432934,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,44.433060,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,44.433060,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,44.933056,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,44.933235,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,44.933235,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,45.433243,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,45.433254,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,45.933250,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,45.933430,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,45.933430,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,46.433426,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,46.433723,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,46.433723,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,46.933723,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,46.933899,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,46.933899,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,47.433899,-0.015000
M3,8.581494,47.438202,-0.015000
M3,22.581493,47.438202,-0.015000
J3,22.581493,47.438202,0.236200
JZ,0.750000
'J2,0.000000,0.000000
'
'Turning router OFF
SO,1,0

[Brady Watson]

Robert,
What are your ramps set to at the moment? Default?

The file you pasted here should be able to cut in about 2 or 3 minutes.

-B

[paco]

Last Complete |PREVIEW Mode| Est: 00:02:28 Reps: 1 10:16:10 10-24-2006
File Max: 22.58, 47.44, 0.75 Min: 0.00, 0.00,- 0.02 Offset:no Brks=0

with the default ramping value; can be improved a little but even with the default, you should save some time. The preview estimate can be a little off but it sure is under 5 minutes.

The best way to test and get used to ramping setting is cutting air... you'll know when it's wrong. It'll get either jerky or very boring to watch.

Post you settings as Brady suggest.

[richards]

Normally, I have the jog speed faster than the feed speed by a factor of 1.5 to 2X.

Also, if you jog the Z-axis to barely clear the material before plunging, you'll pick up a little speed:

Change
J3,1.311299,0.968095,0.236200
M3,1.311299,0.968095,-0.015000
To
J3,1.311299,0.968095,0.236200
JZ, 0.050
M3,1.311299,0.968095,-0.015000

Since you only have two plunges in your file, the JZ command won't do much, but in other files it might help. I try to ramp into the material whenever possible, not only to reduce the axial force on the bearings on my spindle, but also to allow Z-axis speeds of 6-ips instead of 0.50 to 1.0 ips.

[paco]

Last Complete |Cut Mode| Elapsed: 00:05:47 Reps: 1 10:33:20 10-24-2006
File Max: 96.24, 47.44, 0.75, 1.00 Min: 1.31, 0.97,- 0.02, 1.00 Offset:no Brks=0

Ok, preview is 50% off with the default ramping values. Still, I could groove a full 4' X 8' in about 25 minutes, so you're not that off from the "truth". Maybe you could save some time with jogs of 25 IPS.
Read carefully all documentation you have about ramping settings and spend some time testing. I don't think you'll cut the cutting time by half but...
One of my first advice to "save" time on Bot cutting is to make your toolpath so that you don't have to stand at the machine while it does it's job but rather get at the design PC for CAD/CAM, grab the phone, paint, assemble, browse the TSB forum... you know.

[harryball]

I'm running the default ramp speeds. The file is 1/4 of the total event, it is repeated 4 times at offsets of 0,24,48,72 on the X axis. For the entire sheet it is taking close to 27 or 28 minutes which is almost 7 minutes of run time for the single unit.

I am multi-tasking... right now :-) I'm preping kits and so on, I just need 24 of these cut before tomorrow morning. I'm getting there.

The ramping is really the only place I could save time. I know defaults are generally conservative and thought someone might have a quick fix to save me a couple minutes per run. I guess I could always get another bot and call it Mrs. Bot.

Also... I was hoping for 2 to 3 minutes per run as the preview suggests. About 15 minutes to cut the entire sheet would be great! Cut time grows exponetially.

Robert

[Brady Watson]

You can run @ 12 IPS instead of 10, which would speed things up more than raising the Jog speed (although if you are looking to save time, run it @ 25 IPS as Paco suggests)

The tool still has to start and stop and ramping will be a factor regardless. I would experiement with changing the slow corner speed (default 65) and the minimum distance to check (default .15) I run mine @ 40 on the slow corner speed when doing 2D and .08 on the min dist to check on everything. See how it runs. If it is too abrupt (you get banging at the ends of a raster) lower the slow corner speed. If the rastering is too slow to accelerate or decelerate, then raise the slow corner speed. You can make changes to VR while you are cutting by hitting the S key, I to insert and VR. Make changes and resume. Changing other values in the VR will get you into trouble if you do not have the time to experiement and mindfully be aware of what each little change makes. Stick with these 2 settings for now.

After you have found the best ramping values for that file, save your configuration settings by typing the US command (after you are done cutting). Give it a meaningful name. Then when you are going to cut this file (or similar file) again, type in the UR command, accept all of the warnings and load your saved configuration which contains all of the VR settings that you saved.

-B

[mikejohn]

Robert
Your problem is that,although you have a speed of 10IPS, this is the speed only when going in straight lines, once you have got out of ramped speed.
Elsewhere it has been shown, depending on the shape of the file, you may only be cutting at 20% of that time.
This applies to the Alpha, or to any of the new control boxes being offered now.
Maximum speed is only achievable in straight long lines.
Anything else and your cutting time will be slower.
Simulation times have always been approximate, which is discussed elsewhere in this forum.

...........Mike

[paco]

Don't overlook the 'XY Move Ramp Speed' and 'Move Ramp Rate' but change with small increment. Same thing for Jogs.

[bob_lofthouse]

Silly question time....

Why wouldn't you just set the jog speed to 30ips...

Which Is what I've got my machines set at...

Is there a reason to have it set at a lower speed.

[Brady Watson]

Robert,
I keep my jog speed down to about 22 IPS since I feel that A) I don't really need to jog @ 30 IPS and B) I want to reduce wear & tear on the pinions, rack & gearboxes.

-B

[paco]

Same here... or so; 25 IPS.

[harryball]

I've run into something that I'm going to post in troubleshooting. I've taken one of my groove files and made the ends of the runs round and not square. What is curious is how the bot reacted.

On this topic, I'm still trying to squeeze some speed out. Someone suggested 12 ips. When I put that in I get an error message that a parameter is out of range and then the bot seems to run the same. I did the math, 600"/min is 10"/sec... is that not the maximum cutting speed? Is there a setting I didn't toggle somewhere to allow it to go over 10ips?

Robert

[beacon14]

If you change the M3 commands to J3 commands you could theoretically cut straight lines at up to 30 ips.

Just out of curiosity, how did you make these cuts before you bought the 'Bot?, and how long did it take?

[richards]

Someone from Shopbot might want to jump in here. Unless I'm mistaken, JOGs and MOVEs use different pulsing methods, which might make JOG commands, when substituted for MOVE commands, less accruate. I'm not implying that a JOG is not accurate. But, my understanding is that the Oriental Motor driver's steps-per-revolution setting is changed by the software (10X) during a JOG. Put another way, a JOG moves the spindle/router to a new location without expecting the path/route of that movement to be the same path/route that would have been followed if the movement had been made with the MOVE command. (I'm really not trying to make this sound complex - perhaps it's because I don't know how to explain exactly the mechanical difference between a JOG and a MOVE except to say that software changes the steps-per-revolution setting on-the-fly to make fast JOGs possible.)

It is possible to increase the default maximum speeds, but before changing anything in the ShopbotW.prm file, why not call tech support to avoid unnecessary grief?

[harryball]

I use to cut the grooves using a custom shop jig and a porter cable router. I love making jigs. I cut all the panels out and ran them one at the time. I could cut 4 full bat house kit grooves in about 30 minutes best speed. The bot really does not cut them any faster... well at least not the first ones. After about 6 kits it can whoop my rear.

Mr. Bot does all the grooves leaving me free to do other things. He does them consistently and a little neater than my shop jig router combo.

Mr. Bot also cuts out the parts much faster than I can. I have panel cutting jigs but I only have one table saw and one router station. I spend time swaping jigs etc...

If I had 3 table saws and I layed out the 4x8 sheets I wager I could cut 4 bat house kits in about 2/3 the time it currently takes Mr. Bot. Keep in mind I've done this hundreds of times. However, the second set Mr. Bot would catch up, after that I'd just have to watch him tirelessly truding along. Maybe I should raise his pay... nahhh.

Seriously though, the bot is great. I'm far enough along now I'm trying to push it's boundries. I will call shop bot when I get a chance. I run a full sheet baffle that does have 93" runs and it'd be fantastic if I could cut it faster.

Robert

[beacon14]

Robert I think you win the prize for fastest climb of the learning curve for any ShopBotter to date.

[Brady Watson]

Yes Mike you are correct. I started typing the fact that jogs are handled at a different pulse rate than moves, but retracted it since David clarified it as a straight move with no curves. I don't like the idea of cutting under a jog move personally.

-B

[dvanr]

Maybe a simple change in cut strategy that might speed things.

Do they have to be S curves done on a panel by panel basis?

example:
I had to cut 35 squares out per sheet and had 20 sheets to do, watching it cut each individul square was painful. The solution was to knock out as many turns as possible. Squares that had sides in common were all done in one pass, reducing 140 corners to 44

[beacon14]

The depth is .015" so the 1/8" bit doesn't meet much resistance

I guess I should have clarified I would not have even suggested it if not for the very light cuts involved here.