Surface Paning

[joecrumley]

Greeting to all you Shopboter.

We have been surfacing our cedar and redwood panels with a 1.25" bit and it takes a lot of time. Some of these are 4'X8'and once glued up they are not flat.

A couple of years ago there was a large disk planer sold, to be used in the drill press. The demo showed it doing raised panels. I wonder if there is still such a product.

Althoug we could slow the router down for this type of bit, it may pose a power problem.

This has to be the most fundamental, stupid request ever made, but I don't have a clue.

Best wishes

Joe

[gerald_d]

Hi Joe, no request is ever stupid, but sometimes our replies are!


If you want to remove a lot of material, you have two choices:
- a lot of time, or
- a lot of power
Unfortunately there is no other magical formula to remove a lot of material.

If you are starting to talk of disk planers, then be very careful of using the correct speed!

When you slow down a router, you are also reducing its power output, so this doesn't make sense to me. I would think that you have to keep your router at max speed to have max power available. Then you pick the biggest bit that you can for that speed. Then you run the Shopbot as fast as possible without killing the router or burning the job.

[joecrumley]

Gerald,

Perhaps I was thinking of a Surface Disk Planer, as you mentioned. Do these planers operate at a lower speed which is your concern?

I am quiet sure that a drill press turning at a low speed has lots of torque, where a router throtled back wouldn't.

We want to remove only 1/8" of surface wood. Any way, if the disk planers are not recommended for high RPMs; were barking up the wrong log.

Thanks your sage advice

Joe

[davidallen]

you may be thinking about the Wagner Saf-T-Plane.

I think they're rated at a couple of thousand rpm. I tried on a PC router turned down. way higher than rated though.

no obvious issues with vibration but the system won't plunge. if you can enter from the side it worked OK with thin cuts. I didn't try anything deeper than .050" since I was trying to use it to flatten a table top.

[gerald_d]

Hi Joe, the little bit of info on the www about the Wagner Safe-T-Planer puts its maximum speed at 6000 rpm.


5162

When a cutter's diameter increases, then the centrifugal force on the cutter tips increases as well. The safety danger is from the risk that that the cutter would fly apart - literally "explode".

A drill press is "geared down" with different pulley sizes, while the actual electric motor continues to turn at maximum speed (hence maximum power). The electrical speed reductions found on router motors reduce the power and are not efficient.

[Mayo]

I've helped glue up lots of redwood and cedar sign blanks and have never had the need to remove any of the surface. Here's some tips:

First, you need to run your lumber through a table saw to get rid of the rounded edges, or perhaps you can take off the edge with your shopbot.

Pay attention to the wood grain and make sure you aren't assembling your blank in a way that would allow it to warp or bow because of similar direction of the grain.

When you dowel the wood boards, use a dowel jig for accuracy. When you clamp your boards, always use clamps on both front and back sides to minimize bowing. Place the clamp poles in contact with the face and back of the board, then tighten them.

Wash off the excess glue while it's still dripping. Use a big sponge and lots of water and wring out the sponge frequently.

Unclamp the panel the following day and you should only have slight sanding to do, and the panel should be pretty flat.

[joe]

David,Gerald & Mayo


Thank you guys for the information about the Wagner product. This was what I had in mind. The precautions and illustration given by Gerald are greatly appreciated.

I am greatfull to Shopbot for the Forum page. Ted Hall has a vision for this company that few manufacturers have picked up on. We all wish him and the company the best. Technicical support could not be better.

Mayo,

I can tell you have experience with the redwood panels, wish we discuss it over a cup of coffee. I am sure I could learn lots.

Here is why we sometimes need to plane.

When guleing up large panels, lets say 4'X10', we start at one end with bar clamps, on each side, adjusting as we proceed up to the other end. The next morning when unclamped it looks perfect but there is allways some slight variations. I have been doing this for over 20 years and have seldom seen a perfectly flat panel. Anyway, it makes little difference when your are sandblasting, as you can get away with murder. That is what we have been doing untill the purchase of our Shopbot.

When doing small signs like, 3'X4', I purchase a single stick of, 12" X 12' or 16'stock and cut to size. 2" kiln dried redwood is never, ever 2" or any thtickness. To keep from visiting the thickness planer we use this single stick method. It also keeps wood density, moisture content, and general appearance uniform.

SHOPBOT IN USE, SIGNS

Due to the awfull cost of vertical heart redwood, we are going with a slightly different product, rough cedar. When resurfaced it looks very nice. I know, you can't replace redwood with cedar, but with the Shopbot you can make an awfully good looing product and at a better cost.

We never use dowels or splines or biscuts in our wood panels. They cause real problems. Like showing through as you take out the bachground. There is no way to disguise a dowell showing through. We reduce out backgrounds by 50 percent because of the look.

Panels are glued up with West Epoxy. Never have had any problem with seperation.

Thanks again your thoughts and consideration.

Joe

[Wdyasq@yahoo.com]

Once the subject hit GLUE, I was stuck with a reply. I've had enough glue failure to learn about most types of sticky stuff.

Epoxy - some folks can develop and allergy related to the handling of the material and sanding of the uncured resin. It takes several days for the resin to cure. Gougeon Brothers older stuff would not cure in cold weather and the fillers they used made the cured resin so hard it would destroy edge tools. Epoxy will sometimes have 'glue starved' joints if the joinery is really good and the clamping squeezes the snot out of the mating surfaces. It has some other minor problems like amine blush. I use System3 epoxy for several reasons.

White glues/Yellow glues- the old main-stays of woodwork. The new 'waterproof' glues have some low temperature curing problems but, other than that, pretty good stuff.

Polyurethane glues- the relatively new "monster" on the block. I haven't found what it won't stick. I have used the Gorilla brand, PL brand, Borden's brand and Titebond's brand. Viscosity and cost seem to be the only differences. Will fill small gaps but not bridge gaps structurally. Sands easily when dry, said to be waterproof. I like it. Spare and partial bottles can be stored in the freezer and will remain viable.

Polyurethane adhesives - I have only seen and used the PL brand of this stuff. Comes in caulking tubes, bridges good sized gaps, said to be weatherproof and BONDS. Fairly hard when cured and will stain but does not take stain well. Sticks all kinds of things together and they seem to stay together. One of my favorite sticky things - one hour reposition time.

Flexible adhesives - Polysulfides and things like 3M 5200 will not be addressed in this note.

Ron Brown - wdyasq@yahoo.com (mailto:wdyasq@yahoo.com)

If Stupidity got us into this mess,
then why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers

[gerald_d]

Joe, we have done some solid wood signs with reduced background, albeit much smaller than the monsters that you are talking about. Because of the smaller size, we use a 1/4" cutter to get the definition around the letters.

In the beginning we looked at larger cutters for hogging out most of the reduced backgrounds, but we found that the larger cutters couldn't cut the full depth in one cut like the 1/4" does. (Our router is 2.25hp). So we have ended up doing the WHOLE job with one 1/4" cutter.

Because most of the sign's surface area is reduced, we see no point in trying to surface the whole thing in the beginning. We only surface the raised faces right at the end, which is actually quite quick, even with a 1/4" cutter. A belt sander also works okay for cleaning off the tops of the letters in some cases.

[garbob]

I have used the Onsrud 90-02 (2 1/2 inch dia.)insert cutter bit to plane my particle board table surface and also white cedar. This is a pricey bit(about $300 US), but the two cutters are replaceble ($6 each) and have four edges each. I generally plane my table and cedar or other soft wood up to a depth of 0.0625 inches at a time running at 1 ips and 18,000 rpm, no smoke, no whining, it just works.

I recently had a job to produce raised letter signs for an upscale mini golf range in an exclusive park using 2" (not) thick cedar. I did the pricing of the woood and cut a sample (on a not standard, appaerently, flat panel). Got the job, got the wood and it was impossible to work with, it was cupped diagonally, twisted, you name it. I ended up bolting one piece to my table and took the high spots off one side and then turned it over and did the other side. It was fantastic, but guess what, the customer was not about to pay over double what was quoted. We ended up agreeing on 1 by 10 white cedar, v carved (thanks Rams software) and everyone was happy!
This bit is well woth the money, even just for flattening the table in an hour or so. BUT BEWARE, this is not a plunge bit, you must start off the piece to start planing.

[joecrumley]

Ron & Gerald,

I do believe we are brothers from the sane glue pot.

Ron I agree with every thing you said about glue. I have made the exact discovery's over the years. Yes Guegion Bros. epoxy and others cure poorly in cool weather and it will take the edge off a fine woorking like a chisel right now.

I have not tried the Gorilla glue because I'm affraid to try anything new. My signs need to last at least 20 years and, it appears I'm behind the glue curve again Our moto should be "Our Signs Outlast Most of Our Customers". Not a good sales pitch. Amusing any way.

One personal trick. Epoxy FILLERs, or additives used for thickening, gap filling,are both expensive and not so good. We ankle over to the belt sander and drop enough sawdust into the glue till it is like fuldge. I have experimented with this for years and think it makes the stuff is harder and much more manageable. Never have I had a joint failure.

It is so nice to find guys that really know their stuff like you fellows.

Gerald,

I agree about taking out the background as you do. The only reason to use a planner is when we do the V Carve that has skinney, fine curves. Like the font Balmoral, or detailed letters with thick and thin strokes.

Please see our examples on Shopbots section about
"Shopbot In Use, Signs.

Happy routing!

PS.
Ron, what do you think of the National Coating Powdered Resin Glue, or any other Mfg. plastic resin adhesives.

Joe

[gerald_d]

Aha Joe, Yes the fine V-carving does need some planing. We hate it when a customer brings along his favorite chunk of wood (or log slice) that is warped/taper/bowed and he wants some fine engraving done in it.

This is when a good solid table is useful. We pull the job as flat as possible with bolts through the table and wedges/spacers/shims. Then plane it with a 1" cutter, using ShopBot's table surfacing program.

[joecrumley]

Dear Gary,

Thanks for the Onsrud bit information. They make a fine product and that will be the choice for us.

I want to thank you agin for getting me to RAMS. I talked with David over there yeaterday. He informed me that next week the update will be on line and shortens the last part of the program calculations

I know you did a good job for the golf course.

Here is what I have found about sign making wood. To keep warping, cuping, splitting, do as you did, and use 2" or even better 8 quarter rough stock and plane it down. Second, use vertical grain or at least quarter sawn stock. This will seldom have the problems as flat sawn material. Horizonal boards will almost allways cup. Raised letters on flat stock will writh, or flake off. After a few month you will probably see smaller letters with sever splits accross them. Vertical grain hart redwood will almost never have these problems

There are few woods that will work for outdoor signs. Cedar, redwood, mahogany, teak and some pines.

The most expensive signs we've made are those that fail, and we have to do them over. The only short cut is NO SHORT CUT. I know I must sound like I'm a fanatic. But if there is some young fellow out there wanting to make a beautifull quality wood sign and if this saves him time and money, that's what I want.

Trying to bolt a down boards to keep them flat is a real problem.

Thanks again guys for all your help,

Joe

[joecrumley]

Mayo,

I have designed small file for you to look at. Please give me your Email address and a format you prefer.

Perhaps I"ll send a photo of a sign or two.

Are you on broad band or regular server?

Joe
jcrumley@mmcable.com (mailto:jcrumley@mmcable.com)

[Mayo]

Joe, and others who might not know this, you can privately e-mail anyone right from here by clicking on their blue name in the header of their post.

This brings up another screen with the person's e-mail address. Click that and it opens your e-mail program already addressed to that person.

My internet connection is a regular server - with a 56k modem that connects at 49,333 most of the time.