What about a tool changer for a Porter Cable?

[waynec]

It seems like with all the ingenuity of Shopbotters, someone would come up with a tool changing setup that works with the good ole Porter Cable router.

Does someone make one? Is there some reason it can't or shouldnt' be done? Safety issue?

Does someone use a tool changer on the SB?

[stickman]

Wayne,

I'm not the person to experiment with this idea, but here was my thought. Have you ever seen a DeWalt offset router base. Its got a gear you place in the collet, that connects to a belt and drives the offset collet at the offset base.

The key point in using this type of setup would be the tooling holders, or the ability to pick up the other tool. I might also reduce the cutting area, by offsetting the router base.

I am sure there are tool changers for the Columbo spindle... but for the PC, I doubt it.

I've often thought about adding a second Z-Axis for that reason. Put a 1/4" or 1/2" spiral cutter for cutting and a 1/8" bit in for drilling.

If it was only as simple as the old pen plotters...

Jay

[Brady Watson]

Wayne,
Toolchangers are costly no matter who makes them...there is specialized hardware involved (like pneumatic chucks etc) and more importantly, software. Every time you need to change a tool, your software will have to have provisions to A) turn off the router B) precisely drop the existing tool C) Precisely locate and secure the new tool D) restart router and return to cutting position.

It's a romantic idea, but really more trouble than it is worth on a PC. No offense to you using the PC, but adapting a toolchanger to the PC is analogous to putting twin turbos on a Hyundai. A more useful approach might be to index all of your tools the same distance from tip to collet with some type of tool holder. This way, you will only have to Z-zero once with the 1st bit, then you can just chuck in subsequent tools with no deviation in Z depth...provided that you set the tools up accurately.

I agree with Jay, that an extra Z-axis would be the most straight forward way to go.

-Brady

[paco]

This sound quite interesting Brady! (About "indexing" all the tool bit used)... Had you done this for your purposes? In other word; it's a good idea but is it been test/tryed?

[Brady Watson]

No Paco, I do not index my tools. However, machines that use toolchangers do. Otherwise, what would be the point in having a toolchager if you had to stop & re-zero the bit?...you might as well change the tool while you are at it!

I *think* guy uses indexed tooling (http://www.homecnc.info/tooling.htm) on his PC router, although the pics show collets for a mill. Someone else out there in cyberland does use the PC with indexed tooling...you'll have to google it.

-Brady

[beacon14]

for far less than what you would pay for a tool-changer, you could buy a separate router for each bit, and focus on making a way to quickly swap out the whole router, bit and all. Once each bit is indexed to its particular router, it could be quite fast to remove one router, drop in the next one, secure it with a quick-release cam clamp or something similar, and off you go! Granted, you still have to be there at the machine to make the swap, but if you have many tool changes, it could add up to some time savings without the cost of a real tool-changer. Not to mention, plenty of spare routers on hand in case one blows up on you.

[gerald_d]

Deja vu (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/1529.html#POST8932)

[paco]

Well, my idea (without any extensive research about this) was that a machine equiped with a tool changer would go to the tool changer... change the tool... calibrate all by itself as we do but automaticaly on a fixed "Zero plate"... and go on... without any need to "index" the tool in each tool holder!
But Brady bring to the idea to use a "gage block" when changing manually the tool bit but that, I think will not work with ALL tool bit!?... since the shank need to be insert at about a certain point and not up to touching the chuck... and that ALL bit do not have the same cutting/working lenght... that's it and that's all!
I think that developing a good and fast habit about changing the tool bits is probably the best and cheaper! Maybe zeroing to a fixed Z-plate can save some time as it can be program to automatic but with caution depending on job setup and fixturing...

[beacon14]

And I thought I was being original - sorry Gerald

[waynec]

Thanks all. I guess you have to ask.

I'll shelf that little idea for now. I just read some stuff from the Thermwood site, where they are big on reducing setup time.

Its the theory of relativity at work, clearly. The shopbot saves so much labor with just the porter cable router that the setup time is nearly inconsequential. Yes, reducing setup time would improve productivity, but relative to its cost, the improvement is very small compared to the step from conventional woodshop to shopbot driven shop. Gotta keep things (read costs) in perspective.

I'm like the goat that lives in a yard full of grass, but strains his head over the fence to get that one blade just out of reach.

Back to work.

Wayne from White Salmon

[gerald_d]

That's okay David - great minds think alike.

Don't anyone dare add: "and fools never differ"

[spektr]

I index all my cutters before I use them for the first time. I use 1/4 inch wheel collars for model airplane landing gears on the tool shaft.
I use a height gauge to set them at a known value from the tip and tighten the collar. When I change that cutter, It always has the correct length sticking out and Z is unaffected when I change tools. I set as many cutters to the same value as I can to reduce Z changes. Simple/cheap/repeatable. Collars are under a buck each and reusable when the cutter life is over. Lets not make this too hard. Scott.

[jsfrost]

Borrowing liberally from several ideas here and elsewhere on the forum, I think the re-zero after bit change could be automated and totally hands off by using both a movable Z-Zero plate and a fixed location table height "reference" plate.

The process might go like this:
1. Prior to start of job, zero to material surface using Z zero plate.
2. Using a canned routine called within the job, measure and store delta to reference plate.
3. After bit change, using a canned routine called within the job measure new reference plate Z.
4. Subtract delta from step 2 and rezero. This will correct for the difference between old and new bit length.

This would require that the routerbit always be grounded. On my system, on about day 1 or 2, I managed to tear out the z-zero groundwire by winding around the router bit. I found that the router bit was solidly grounded anyway ,and that zeroing worked fine without a ground wire. (your system may be different). And you need a location for the "reference plate". This would be a problem for the full sheet people but not for the little job bunch.

[paco]

This sound good Jim.
I agree that combining both type of Z-plate could be some time saving... and I plan to do some thinking about a such setup... but still, how to deal with the fixed plate once your using another zero (non-TBC)?... without having to re-enter much data in the routine??... looking for automatic routine... Hummm... ideas are comming to me!! I'll do some testing tonight...
I would locate the fixed Z-plate just aside the spoilbaord on a support member of the table base/spoilboard pobably raised enought to be able to zero ALL kind of bit that I use...

[dvanr]

Try and "hack" a version of this device onto the Shopbot!

Fascinating site.

DIY tool changer (http://home.insightbb.com/~joevicar3/default.htm)

DvanR

[jthelen]

5314

I designed and built my Router from scratch a couple years ago. This is the tool changer I design. The concept is that it changes out the router mounted to a precision made plate. I designed this as way to learn Solidworks a couple years ago. I did build the router just to see if it would work. I have not built the changer yet. This was designed in 3D and every part came out great when I built it. I am out of work so I've got other priorities right now. I have been trying to get the router going as a business and that has consumed most of my R&D time.

When I get the changer going I will let you know how it works.

[gerald_d]

Dick, that 6-armed "revolver" is what was turning in my mind in that deja vu link. Except that I was thinking of having 3,4 or 6 complete routers swopping places. Maybe not 6 identical routers, there could be a drill, or something else on that carousel......

[stickman]

I like the idea of the 6 arm, I could probably handle four arms.. and I would be fine.. I was looking at tool changer spindles... whew... I could put a nice building up for the price of just the spindle, that didn't include the tool holders or the tool carriage. I could probably get away without the tool carriage. Pause the spindle at a location, shut it down, pop the tool cone out by hand and place the new one in... But wait.. it would probably take as much time as chaging the PC.

You'd have to bring the PC router a long ways to even get close to that technology. You'd need to create a tool cone, a spindle attachment at the collet location, electronic and software adaptations for tool changing.

That is a pretty neat little attachment for that spindle.

[paco]

Workin' on this "Automatic Z zeroing routine"; it is comming to something quite interesting AND FAST... but may be reserved for "MANY tool change type of works"... it use both standard Z-plate AND a fixed Z-plate; in fact, only the fixed one once the spoilboard is "zeroed"... once the new tool is installed, the routine calibrate it completely automatic AND return to it's last position... I'll be testing it some futher more in the next days...

[ron brown]

Some time ago I took the time to think-up and draw up a router changer. I've looked for the drawings but have failed to find them. I went as far as making one of the "mounts" and its' counterpart of birch ply so I could think about it in 3D with my hands.

Like Jim's arrangement I planned to mount them linear. Unlike Jim's arrangement, the device was a vertical tapered dovetail. Inside the dovetail were contacts and a micro-switch to activate the safeties. It would have required a "Z" tall enough to clear bits and machinery.

The concept was the machine would drop off the old tool - position/pull in/unlatch/"Z" lower/back out/ - then then go pickup the new tool - new tool position/pull in/"Z" up/latch and go back to work.

There were interlocks and safties to assure the things would work and not fry folks (me). It was involved, but not complicated.

But, since then, there was a new CNC machine. And a modification, and two moves, Her-Saf bits came in to my use, I thought about how many times I would use it and how much time ot would take to make it.

Ron

[jf_allie]

A friend of mine is looking at the Shopbot for a new cabinet business. He would mainly do system 35 cabinets. His concerned was that the Shopbot has only one tool. So that got me thinking about tool changers.

If I understand correctly, in system 35, many of the bits are for drilling. The drilling depth are very shallow (max 5/16" ?).

Here is my spin on this:
Get a second Z axis, then mount 4 edge trimmers in a square, put the different size drill bit we need (3, 5, 8 mm, etc.),index them to the same lenght, then use a cam-follower system to make each trimmer come down as needed. Of course, when "changing tool" the Z axis has to move up to allow for the "coucou" action of each tool until the right tool is reached.

Questions: Would these edge trimmer be up to the task? Could a trimmer be used as well to pocket the 35 mm hole for the hinges? If so, then maybe we could get by with one Z axis provided the panels are pre-cut.

Here are some cleaned up "napkin" sketches" to show what I mean.


5315

5316

[paco]

About "Automatic Z zeroing routine";

two versions are now at testing. One is using the spoilboard surface as reference and the other is using the material/blank as reference. This does'nt mean that the spoilboard or the material surface SHOULD be used for the toolpath programming but rather how each routine keep track of the first/previous set Z zero... Both work alike but the programs ARE different.
This should/could speed up new tool zeroing process but, as wrote previously, thoses routines may be more suited for "MANY tool change type of works"...
So here how it goes; tool changing is done manually, once the new tool bit is installed, the routine is launched and the tool reach back to "home" position, then reach the fixed Z-plate and zero the new tool and get back to home ready to start the next toolpath. The whole process of the routines take a few seconds (on an Alpha); while the new tool bit is being zeroed the operator is free...
This mean that the user need to install a fixed Z-plate.
I've wrote the first one as I was looking to speed up and make automatic the tool bit zeroing on some projects which involved repetitive tool bit changes as I do the parts in blanks where I cut only one part per blank or the part need to be cut one by one in bigger blanks and use two or more tool and two or more distinct toolpaths.

If anyone wish to give it a try, feel free to contact me.

[jf_allie]

Just so that it's clear...

I made a mistake in the second drawing. The stopers on the trimmer on the right should be level with the ones on the left.