Dryvit and construction foam

[panelman]

Has anyone experimented with dryvit as a top coat on construction foam? Thanks, Frank

[artisan]

Dryvit will stick to nearly anything and is a VERY forgiving coating. It is "elastomeric" which means it is not brittle and will withstand major temperature fluctuations. It can be sprayed with a hopper gun or brushed on. Dryvit is a brand name and there are many other similar products used by the stucco industry....D

[panelman]

Darrell, thanks for the info. Have you actually used dryvit? The website www.dryvit.com (http://www.dryvit.com) shows that it is actually used as an exterior finish on buildings. I'm wondering if it can be used to fill in the porous construction foam and make it suitable for outdoor signs? I also am curious about its cost and ease of use compared to the epoxies that others are using?
frank

[artisan]

Yes....I've used Dryvit extensively. The undercoating product known as "browncoat" is actually an excellent foam coating and can be sanded. It gives the foam the hardness that is needed before the Dryvit type products (latex stucco) are applied. The stucco products are better at hiding imperfections (sand finish)but are not great if you need fine detail. Here is an example of a foam and stucco sign done with the Bot....
5494

[joe]

Darrell,

The company product "Dryvit" is hard to come by. I haven't been able to get my hands on it, however I think there are other products that are much the same thing.

Where do you get your supply and what is that brown coat?

j

[artisan]

Find your local stucco supplier......Bonsal and Parex are common product names. Your local supplier will carry a complete brand "system" that includes the browncoat and stucco.

When new construction goes up in your area, watch for the point where they attach white foam to the building. Almost immediately they will begin troweling a cement like mixture (browncoat) over the foam. This is because sunlight (UV rays) is the foams worst enemy. Once the browncoat is in place, they will then trowel on a stucco product with glass beads in it to give the proper texture to the finish. The beads create little pathways or "worms" in the finish when pushed by a trowel. This is VERY common on most new construction.

Here at my shop, we spray on the finishes with a hopper gun rather than trowel it. We use the sand finish without the glass beads if a stucco finish is ordered. We use the browncoat more often as a base for painted or epoxied pieces as well. It's a cheap durable finish that can be built up and sanded repeatedly.

Google up "Elastomeric Coatings" and you should find a wealth of info. Dryvit is just one of several brands....D

[joe]

Darrell,

Thank you very much for the good information. I am very interested in the browncoat material to use as you have. Is this a water base material and how does it sand?

J
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[artisan]

Joe it sands perfectly and makes a "double top secret" filler and finish for some HDU projects we do. It is water based and can be applied (sprayed) as a thin coating or troweled on like mud to build up an area. It sticks to almost anything...D

[joe]

D.

Thanks again.

The information you have given is the reason I find this Forum so helpful.

It looks as if we do much the same kind of work. As a matter of fact we have a couple of HDU panels to finish out today. Hope I can find the scratch coat in the OKC area.

I tried the Precision Board Hard Coat to get the same finish you are getting with Drivit. While it PB hardens some, not nearly as much as Drivit.

We make HDU posts for many of our signs and have a problem with Weed Whackers. Drivit should do the trick.

j

[artisan]

Joe....I say again, the browncoat undercoating is what gives the hardness and I assure you it is READILY available in your area. It soaks in nicely on the HDU and gives a smooth finish as well as a harder finish that can be easily sanded. This is usually, but not always, impregnated with a fiberglass mesh for added strength when doing bead-foam work. The Dryvit (acrylic stucco) product will hide imperfections, but is not much harder than latex paint with sand added.

Check "DemandHotwire.com" and "Wind-lock.com" products to better understand the tools and methods involved and just what's available. This should be new and interesting info for many of you....D

[dave_draper]

Acryllic stuccco systems make very durable signs.

1. you need expanded polystyrene
2. you need foam construction adhesive
3. you need brown coat or cement foundation coatings
4. you need styro spray or nylon mesh
5. you need acrylic stucco
6. you need to have some trowling skills
7. you need training before you can buy most manufacturer's stucco and their permission and possibly the permission of local contractors who are licensed or authorized Drivit applicators (it's like a franchise thing) and they don't want sign guys doing stucco. Way too many law suits for shoddy application on residential homes where water got in behind the stucco and caused mildew. To get to the mildew and rot, all the stucco has to be removed. They DO NOT WANT ANYMORE lawsuits. Understand? They don't want sign guys putting stucco on anything! PERIOD!

Drvit suppliers would not allow us to take the training, or buy their system of products. Senergy has the same story. Most of the other brands reject sales to unautorized applicators and are very tight on who can become autorized.

But, we did find one company that so far has cooperated. I'm not telling! We are entering the wholesale stucco monument sign building business and have been researching and testing for 4 years now. Can't just give up that kind of information, sorry.


As far as our reasearch had gone, the other wholesale "efis" monument sign builders are using styro-spray to coat the foam to by-pass the brown coat (scratch coat) nor are they using nylon mesh. (so its not even a true efis system)
In our tests so far, the nylon mesh makes the signs remarkably stronger, although we can't determine if the nylon mesh system for a monument sign is "overkill" or that the stryo-spray base is as strong as it needs to be for a long lasting trouble free sign. We have heard complaints that some monument signs are damaged during the shipping from the factory to the sign shop. Then the sign shop owner has to call the local stucco construction company to have repairs made.

Another problem we are becoming aware of is that moisture allowed to sit on flat tops of stucco surfaces causes the stucco to desinegrate over time. Sealers are needed on trouble spots and a proper design would be to allow the water to drain off rapidly.

We have been told by the local contractors who clad buildings with stucco to bring our signs to them to let them apply the stucco! I didn't like the sound of the tone they were using. Union guys, need I say more?

In view that there may be trouble getting the supplies and ducking bullets from laid off plasterers, we found an even better cladding for monument signs.

For $500 you can take training to apply Arcusstone products. Real crushed rock stucco in 5 gallon pails that after applied can look like granite, limestone, and other rock, yet applied with a trowel and easily finished with grinders.

There is no "franchise" and other contractors can not have territorial rights nor can they stop someone from buying the products.
And it doesn't develop hairline cracks like stucco does sometimes.

I've said enough, and probably too much.


good luck...and do your homework...lots of it, before diving into this type of sign building venture.

[artisan]

Well....as someone who has already been in the Monument Sign business for the last seven years, I respectfully disagree with almost everything Dave has posted above. The materials are readily available to ANYONE. It sounds as though someone has done a real snow job on you Dave.

Yes, there is a technique to applying it correctly....albeit a simple one. The foam will trap water as it does not "breathe" and must be vented or sealed. The Browncoat and Acrylic Stucco products will "breathe" and are particularly forgiving. The lawsuits from days past came from the stucco rush of ten years ago when stucco was the new vinyl siding and was applied willy nilly over everything in site....including wood siding. This trapped moisture causing termites and decay in the wood which in turn caused whole sides of houses to literally fall off. We know better now.

I don't recommend putting ANYTHING over cheap pine and installing it as an outdoor sign. Most sign guys are craftsmen and know better than to do something so foolish. Having said that, stucco has a place, is easily obtained and applied and for the most part there are few problems and a nice return on your investment.

If your local stucco guy looks like Tony Soprano, then find another one or just look for architectural coatings in your phone book. Paint stores are even beginning to carry some brands. You can also order it with NO TRAINING or Franchise from some of the companies I've listed above. Easiest of all is to find it locally...especially the browncoat which is around $15.00 for a bag....D

[paco]

What about "Vanillacryl"? Anybody have tested or currently use this product?

[Brady Watson]

Paco,
Vanillacryl is OK. You need to put several coats on to get the coverage that you need and it doesn't cure as hard as you would prefer.

Styrospray is OK too...you can shoot it with a hopper/texture gun but unless you religiously clean the gun afterwards, plan on throwing it away after a dozen uses or so.

The ideal coating would be water-based and it cures to a hard shell...so far, not many things fit in that category. However, you can get pretty far with the products that Darrell suggests...and even others like epoxy, shellac and Duratec.

-Brady

[paco]

Well thanks Brady!
What would be the MOST available and easy for a first experience? I wish to test on my buisness sign and I would be using foam with maybe a wood backing... Epoxy; I have an idea since I already used Polyester resin for car repair... Shellac; I don't know much about it but I remember that my father used it to sealed resinous woods... Duratec; don't know about it!

[billp]

Paco,
"Most available, and easy for a first experience"? - I'd try simple latex paint......

[paco]

On insulation foams? ...or HDU? I guess it wont be much of a hard shell on "foams"...?

[artisan]

Hi Paco. Maybe the easiest and toughest finish available is still clear epoxy over your painted (latex) and finished foam sign. What you see is what you'll get and you can brush it on so no tools are required. There are many other options, but epoxy is pretty safe and foolproof....D

[joe]

Paco,

I'm looking at Darrells recommendations for a water base hardner coat, that is fast, and provides a good base for finish coats. The local Dryvit dealer will sell me the scratch coat materials without reservations. It's the surface coatings they limit selling over the counter.

Thanks to Frank for original question.

J

[paco]

Thanks all for inputs!
I guess from Darrell suggestion that I should'nt worry about the paint getting "washed"/blurred by the Epoxy...? And I wonder about the paint finish on insulation foams (and HDU)...? When I will have found that Epoxy I will test some on a small project first.

[joe]

Paco,

There is a whole industry dedicated to using bead board, and insulating foam for signage. Epoxy and other plastic coatings such as Styro Spray make the substrate less important. I shiver when I think of installing thistype of sign on Libray's, Courthouses, University's, Hospitals, ets.

I come from a carving background and use my CNC to continue this tradition. The only way we use DOW blue board or pink foam for is packaging.

HDU is so great for routing, but it takes time to seal off and since it doesn't expand or contract, most fastners such as screws,don't work very outside. It also has very little stregnth when bridging a long gap, as between posts. But is still a very good material although expensive.

We have used all the recommended primers for HDU but they take alot of sanding. Epoxy works well but you have to watch it closely as it will pool down the bottom of V carves. The best so far is High Build Automotive Primer. It dries fast, and covers all those little holes and needs little sanding.

Happy routing

J

[dave_draper]

Darrel,
You haven't disagreed with most everything I stated, just the part about being able to easily obtain the acrylic stucco.

Call Westmont Supply in Peoria Illinois and ask them if they will sell acryllic stucco to you.
Then call Negwere Materials in Bloomington Illinos and ask them if they will sell acrylic stucco materials.
Both suppliers will turn you down!
"SNOW JOB?" or "OUR POLICY" take your pick.


If you are not using a nylon mesh (and from what I read in your post above you didn't even mention it) layered in the brown coat, you are seriously compromising the final stength and integrity.

Drivit makes a sample board with two layers of mesh, the first one a very heavy duty nylon mesh covered with brown coat, then a lighter nylon mesh again covered with brown coat, then a coat of acrylic stucco over the top of it all.

Then their convining test is to lay the sample on the floor and kick it has hard as they can with their shoe heal to show how durable it is.

This is the system they recommend a commercial building to be clad.

Without the mesh layered in the stucco (and we have tried making test samples of that too) the stucco finish breaks easily.

Acrylic stucco signs made properly as just described should last 30 years.

If you want to believe this is a "snow job" ... its your choice.

[joe]

Darrell,

I must agree with you about the integrity of the full Dryvit process.

For our use however, the application of scratch coat, then nylon mesh, and a stucco coat would obscure details, we work so hard to get. Since we don't use beadbord or light weigth foam of any kind, there isn't a need for extra structural support. Our standard substrate is 15lb. HDU. If we do choose to use stucco, it wouldn't need to protect anything, just not flake off.

Folks like Paco and myself continue to search for imporved methods, for our finished product. And even then I resist changing our products' finished look.

Thanks for your reply. Please post some photo's or web link of you signage.

J.
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[artisan]

First of all Dave....I didn't say you were doing a snow job, but that it sounded like someone had done one on you.....mainly referring to the negative overall nature of your post. In my relatively small town (Myrtle Beach), I can walk into any of four dealers and buy 5 gallon buckets of acrylic stucco anytime. Granted, I'm well known in the area, but I could send a stranger and the results would be the same. Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods, but here in one of the fastest growing counties in the USA, the products are freely available.

As for meshes, I guess you missed where I said that browncoat is usually (more often than not) impregnated with a fiberglass mesh (not nylon) which comes in various weights. I am VERY familiar with the full EIFS (not EFIS) systems and the Monument Sign pictured above is fully meshed with fiberglass.

There are applications however, when meshing is not necessary....such as signage that is out of reach. In these instances, protection from sunlight and ultimately birds, is the primary concern....along with weight. When sunlight gets to bead foam, it breaks it down. Then little bugs crawl into the spaces, and birds come along and peck them out....thus destroying the foam. If you've ever seen the tops of foam signs flaking away....this is why. Water won't damage the coatings or foam. Without UV rays, the foam will not break down. Ever wonder why McDonalds switched back to paper for their Big Macs? Foam, buried in a landfill, lasts forever.

In short, I found your post at best very misleading and negative. If you are having problems acquiring the product, feel free to contact me personally and I'll put you onto some sources. Once you get some more experience with the products I'm sure you'll understand my posts better. For now, it sounds more like you are repeating things you've been told.

Here is an example where meshing was unnecessary...a 35 ft tall sign that is EPS foam and browncoat for a local sports bar:
5495

[artisan]

Err....EPS Foam, Browncoat and Stucco that is....D

[paco]

WOW Darrell!!
Silly question but what is EPS foam...?

[artisan]

Here are two examples of interior signage...the sportsbar is browncoat and stucco with no mesh and the Guitar is browncoat and paint with an epoxy finish. The substrate is EPS foam in both projects.:
5496
5497

[joe]

Great work Darrell,

Please let us know if you applied the brown coat to the backgrounds first and the letters later.

How thick is the brown coat compared to the Eefis?

J

[artisan]

EPS stands for Expanded PolyStyrene and is basically the white bead foam known as "styrofoam"...but that is a brand name much as Kleenex is to tissues. EIFS stands for Exterior Insulation and Finishing Systems and is the term for the common foam and stucco finishes found on new construction.

Joe, once you get your hands on some of the browncoat....which is also known as flex-base, you'll see the possibilities. I applied it in one sprayed coat over the sports sculptures and then two coats of sprayed on stucco. The Guitar had two coats of sprayed on browncoat AFTER the letters were attached and was lightly sanded, primed, painted and epoxied. The Sports Sign indoors was attached to drywall after we painted in the background. You can thin the browncoat down to a point where it levels nicely, leaving a smooth finish. Or, it can be thickened and used like putty as a sculptural medium. It will really dry your skin out (hands) after using it a while....D

[panelman]

Darrell, do you happen to be thinking about adoption. Will pay my own way to SC and all the attorney fees. Great looking work. You must be THE MAN. Thank you for sharing all the info in this thread. I am going to pick up some of the browncoat from a local company tomorrow and do some experimenting with it. I told them what I wanted it for and it did not seem to be a problem.
Thanks
Frank

PS: Does South Carolina have bayous and swamps for me to play in?

[jby]

i have built a new garage and the boxing is osb. i intend to apply dryvit directly to the osb. i will span all joints with 9 inch nylon mesh. i will trowel on the genesis coat. my question is can i spray the texture coat (sand pebble) on with a hopper sprayer? also can the finish coat be thinned if necessary? also, could the genesis coat be sprayed on also?

[joe]

John,

Have you had any luck in getting Dryvit? I haven't found a local supply which will sell it to an unauthorized dealer.

One of the concerns with this product is sealing it well around the top and bottom area's. They have had failures where water has been able to seep in, which cause seperation.

Like you I'd like to give a try.

J

[btk]

Joe,

Other national brands that compete with Dryvit and may have local distributor willing to sell to you.
You can search their websites for closest distributor.
www.parex.com (http://www.parex.com)
and
www.stocorp.com (http://www.stocorp.com)

Brian

[joe]

BTK,

Thanks for the leads. I've just found several surface coating under Stucco/Efis. Also I've found several types of "Hopper Guns".

I'm sure everyone else is ahead of me on this subject. Darrell B. helped me along a year ago. I've just now ready to use EPS foam. It's going to be fun.

J

[waddell]

Woodpeckers are making holes in my DryVit covered home. What can I do to stop them? I am told that plastic owls and snakes placed nearby will stop them for a while, but not for long. Is there anything better?

I have bird feeders around the house. Will removing the feeders help?

Many thanks for any help with my problem.
Bill Waddell

[jamesgilliam]

Bill, I'm sure the fake owls will help for a bit, especially if you can find some way to give them a little movement. Some type of light spring they could be mounted to and let the wind do the work. I will trade problems with you though, want some gophers? I have lots of them, and they are digging very close to our newly planted trees. Only sure thing for both our pests is a shotgun, but that is going to leave even bigger holes in your siding. James

[donchapman]

Woodpeckers were a problem for about two years on our cedar sided house and drilled about a dozen 2-3" diameter holes. I just kept covering their holes with metal flashing as soon as I noticed them and eventually they got tired and went elsewhere.

We still have pocket gophers which I control somewhat with poison bait that I place in their tunnels by probing with a pipe or large rebar near their mounds until it breaks into a tunnel where I drop a little bit of gopher bait and cover the punched opening with sod.

Several years ago we were sitting on our front porch and all the sudden a 2 foot tall plant disappeard under ground, pulled in roots first by a gopher.

I once stuck a garden hose down a gopher hole and ran it full blast for half an hour and the water never backed out and never showed on the surface within a hundred yards of our house, so that tells you how extensive their tunnels can be, holding hundreds of gallons of water.

[waddell]

Thanks, James and Don, for your input. Looks like gophers are at least as big a problem. I have had the holes repaired (at a cost of $2300) and will get some fake owls to see if that works.
Thanks again. If you hear of anything else, please let me know.
Bill

[artisan]

Hey Bill.....The birds are after bugs. If your foam-stucco isn't sealed properly, bugs get into the crevices ....literally between the beads of foam...and birds come along and peck them out. This makes better holes for new bugs.....and more food for the birds next time.....and so the process begins. Fill any large holes with "Great Stuff" polyurethane foam and sand it flat. Spray on a non solvent pesticide, and then reseal your stucco with new stucco paste or even latex paint in the short term....a little pesticide will solve the problem quickly, but you must ultimately reseal the foam....D

[donchapman]

The woodpeckers are both seeking insects and building nests. The big holes they made in our house were for nests.

[keith_outten]

I machined an over sized cinder block (46" by 22" by 22") from foam sheets and had it coated/sprayed with truck bedliner material. The result was an excellent coating that is very tough and durable. The cost was $50.00 which I though was reasonable and since the cinder block is often used by a local photography studio to take pictures of children it needed to be able to withstand the abuse of two or three kids sitting, standing and posing on it at a time.

This option was about the same cost as using Dryvit considering material and labor costs. Bedliner spray would also hold up well against weed trimming.

[artisan]

Keith....I couldn't agree more. The kits are now available in the EZ Spray jr system (google)for around 700.00 for the gun....(using your own compressor) and they offer several cartridge coating types.....D

[keith_outten]

Darrell,

I'll have to do some research concerning spraying my own bedliner material. I know it is perfect for exterior use and so tough you can beat it with your fist and not make a dent. It is a bit of a pain to sand and dries almost instantly so there isn't any working time to speak of. They spray it on about 1/16" thick and my local shop gave me a 24 hour turn around on the job, I probably couldn't get it done that fast myself

[artisan]

If you don't need it very much...then by all means farm it out. Here at my shop we make several large 3D foam sculptures a month....plus, I prefer having control of the finish in-house....D

[btk]

Darrell,

What polyurea formulation are you using for Hardcoating Architectural Details. I have been using the Volatile Free 2538, however not really certain that it is giving enough strength.
Also what type of primer are you using so that the finnish coat will adhere later on?

Thanks,
Brian

[artisan]

Hello Brian. Right now.....I'm using styrocoat from Bentley Chemicals. I also use some formulations from Industrial Polymers including their Styrospray. I have a large plural component system with heated hoses and probler guns.....but lately I find myself using the new EZ Spray Jr cartridge system. It's definitely more expensive, but very convenient to use. I also use Zoopoxy Armourcoat for certain applications. I still use Zinnser alcohol based lacquer primers for most of my work as I have stated many times past in this forum. The stuff just works! Hope this helps....D

[btk]

Darrell
Thanks for the input. I have the same gun as EZ Spray Jr. however it is called Quik Spray, very good for small jobs.

Brian

[jr2233]

This is a great site. I need to know if anyone knows about a company called grailcoat and if their product is as good as they say it is. they have an office in daytona beach and manufacture out of tennessee. I did hear that they don't manufacture but only have another product re-labled, but not sure. I find their product sounds good but very expensive. any help would be appreciated.

[conceptmachine]

Darrell,
where in Myrtle Beach are you loocated?My mother-in-law lives in murrels inlet,i would love to stop by your shop the next time im in town if its ok.
shawn