Layout & Design

[joe]

I'm trying to decide if there is enough interest in a short (Five Step) class on Layout & Design. This would encompass several challenging assignments. All of which come from age old design concepts.

I spoke to my good friend Gary Beckwith about the idea. He suggested that we make this course available, in the future, and he offered his web location for a perminent location. We may need to have it there. It may be too off topic on this forum.

Since this is a free course, I would like the assurance from SBers they will spend the time to work on the assignments and post their results. To become accomplished with design, takes participation and work. Reading and seeing won't go very far with accomplishment. It's just like playing the piano. You have to get those fingers on the keys to really learn. And it's not easy.

So, give me your thoughts.

Joe

[coach]

I am definately wanting to learn anything to further the use of my shopbot.
A chance to get lessons in any trade do not come along often.
Count me in to do the assignments.
THANKS,,,,
David

[toych]

That sounds very interesting. As an aspiring ( Vetric pun intended ) sign maker I think an opportunity to have expert training via an online class is an excellent idea.
Having the assignment critiqued by experienced sign people would be very helpful to those participating.
Darren

[david_gardner]

Excellent idea! I would definitely be interested in that.

[toy1]

I would very much like to participate in such a program

[myxpykalix]

Joe,
As someone who has spent years in movies and television and video if you plan to do this in a meduim other than printed words and pictures then pre and post production would be necessary.

However doing it say on video in the long run would be far easier than preparing written and pictoral instruction.
You could offer segments posted to Youtube. Make the videos private and to make sure your "students" are completing their assignments they would have to submit pictures of their progress to go on to the next step.

This sounds like a great idea go for it Joe...sign me up!

[tmerrill]

Joe,

I am very interested. Would this include cutting actual signs or just using preview mode?

Tim

[cnc_works]

Joe, with everything I have read from you, I cannot imagine that this would be anything but a great source of skill building. Looking forward to it!

Donn

[bryson]

Joe, I would be interested. I just received my copy of Mike Stevens book per your suggestion.
Bryson

[butch]

Joe
I would be interested in this training seminar. Sounds very good and helpful.
Thanks
Butch

[radone]

Joe,

As a learning opportunity, very much interested, sign me up.

Randy

[mmccue29]

I would be interested

[dubliner]

I still need to design that Law Office sign Joe, I'm in too!

[scottm48]

Joe,
I would be delighted to participate in this training too!
I have been reading all of your posts for the last couple of years and have found them to provide a tremendous wealth of information.

Thank you,

Scott

[joe]

Have you ever finished up a design & routed the panel, afterwards having questions if it was really very good. Or knowing something was wrong but couldn't put your finger on it?

When I look back at photo's of my old signs I'm amazed at some of the mistakes. Even then I got lost in the job, not paying attention to the fundamentals of design. Understanding Layout and Design gives you a yard stick to untangle those design knots. I'm amazed how few people even have a clue.

I would appreciate knowing if I spend the time developing this course you fellows will do the homework. No matter how simple it may seem, it's worth the effort. Doing is learning.

Joe

[myxpykalix]

As Joe has said before..."Do or do not...there is no try"....no wait, that was Yoda. I get the Sign Master mixed up with the Jedi Master...It's easy to do, aren't they about the same age? lol

Joe I think its a great idea. As I asked previously regarding signs asking about picking fonts that go with a "theme" of a sign. Sometimes i may not know what exactly to use but i can look at a sign and know when it isn't right.
Maybe as part of this you can have examples of signs that are NOT right mixed in with good ones and have us pick the ones that aren't right and tell you why. That might be a good exercise in deveoping your design "eye"...

[myxpykalix]

"Reading and seeing won't go very far with accomplishment".

This is one of the first things i carved on my bot. It hangs on the wall in the shop.

5501

[frank134]

Hi I am new to this. Just got my shopbot and need all the help I can get. you can count me in.
And thank you for the offer.
frank

[sailfl]

Joe,

I would also be interested. Thanks

[joe]

I'm amazed there's this much interest. Now I don't feel so alone.

We're so lucky to have lots of signs in our communities, on our streets, to evaluate. I'll be posting pix for us to judge. Most of them need help but there are some good ones too. With the advent of franchise sign shops, whose owners have little or no design experience, we're blessed with plenty of design disasters.It's a pleasure to see a well layed out and executed sign.

Perhaps I can get the first lesson ready in a week. I don't think it's possible to judge the time between lessons because I don't know how many post will be made and I'd like to respond to as many as possible. Many of you will need a little time think over the the assignments and get their minds around the challenge. We'll have plenty of time to get it right. This is something every one can do and do correctly. So, we're gonna get those mouses A Swinging.

It'll be fun.

Joe

[joewino]

All the best to you Joe, I'll know you'll do a great job.

Does this mean that now all my signs are going to look like yours?

[hugo_carradini]

Hello Joe
I am a newbie and a very enthusiast reader of all your comments and would be and honor to participate in this training you are proposing.
Regards
Hugo Carradini

[jhicks]

Go Joe, Go!!!
You are a generous and talented fellow. I can't wait to see what you and Gary come up with.

[wardsa]

Joe,
Please include me. I always jump at the oppertunity to learn!
Terry

[pappybaynes]

Joe,
Me too!
Dick

[mike_ross]

Hi Joe,

I am very interested in this project. Thank you for your willingness to share your knowledge.

Mike Ross

[hh_woodworking]

Hi Joe,
As Teacher I would love to use your knowledge in my classes. I will have a group of students and myself working on the assignments. It my take us a little long to post cause of the class time limits
Thanks
Ed Harrall

[sneakers]

Joe
Count me in. I need all the help I can get

Gary

[geometree]

Great idea, I'm looking forward to being taught a lesson.
Thanks Joe

[lstovall]

Joe,

I think you struck a nerve. I'm in.

Leon

[paul_n]

Joe....

I'm very interested in your offer !!
Please count me in also.

Paul

[upsman]

Joe
Excellent idea! I would definitely be interested in

Tim

[joe]

Jees fellows, there's certainly interest in this subject. I had no idea there would be so many folks interested.

Ed Harrall,
As a former art teacher, I welcome you and the kids to join in. I'll try to include a few challenges for them. I really miss my classroom years. Seeing their eye light up when they grasp a concept and take it to fruition.
Success breeds success.
Joe

[joe]

Raymond,

Ok, you've found me out. That's my primary goal, to warp your mind like a Zombie, that every sign you do from here on will look just like I did it.

Things are really looking up.

Joe

[joewino]

"take it to fruition."

Is that near Tulsa?

[ckurak]

Joe,

What design software will be used? I have Partwizard, PartWorks, and PartWorks3D. Will they work?

Charles

[joe]

Charles,

Use the software you're most comfortable with. We'll be pushing copy, shapes and other elements around the screen. Easy computer stuff.

I'd like everyone to be on the same level when it comes to software. We'll be working with the same fundamentals, designers have used for years.

Your good to go!

[wayne_walker]

Joe,

I am looking forward to participating in your program!

Thanks,

Wayne

[mccoy178]

I'm in.

[randydimmette]

I'm in

[benchmark]

I'm in

Thank you

[njandpa]

Thanks Joe!
I'm looking forward to your help.

[wmcghee]

I only have Parts wizard, but I would like to join in also. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

[jseiler]

sounds great!

[sailfl]

Joe,

Looking over the thread, it appears that you are going to do the lessons on Gary Beckwith's website.

Will we need to be able to sign in or will the lesson be there and we look at them?

Will we post work that we have done or have you thought how this is going to work while you are putting together the lesson.

Thanks for doing this.

[joe]

Nils,

Good to see you are following the process. Gary and I have come to the decision his sight probably isn't up to this volume. The interest is unexpected and It will probably require limiting the number of responses we can take. We could quickly bog down the system. It may be necessary for me to gang the responses. Suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks to Shopbot for putting up with the whole idea.

Jimmy has suggested setting up a whole forum, dedicated to the subject as well as construction techniques, materials, painting, etc, but this would take too much time. I want to get this thing going next week.

FIRST THOUGHTS ON LAYOUT

When we view our sign panels, the eyes wander around giving the brain all the information needed. That's because the eye doesn't render a flat sharp plain like the camera It only sees small areas. The sequence where the eye moves is the job of the artist. It's your job to direct the eye. That's a key of Layout and Design. sending the viewers eyes to the right piece of copy.

Look at the center of a business card. Don't let your eye wander. While staring at the center you can see the information on the corners and edges, but it's soft. (Hey You, get out that card and start looking) Watch how your eyes wander around the card collecting information. Our brain fools us into thinking we saw it in a single view. Aren't brains wonderful.

[ckurak]

Joe,

Thanks for the response. I'm in.

Charles

[sailfl]

Joe,

I think that setting up a forum is a great idea. It would be nice if it was a forum that notified you of changes....

Even if you have to delay the start of lessons to setup some thing.

Can it be done here?

I am sure that the content will be good so that means the numbers are only going to get larger of the number of people interested and there will be a new topics and members are going to want to display what they have done from taking the lessons or will want to get advise.

We need a new forum for signs.

[bill1]

Excellent idea, I can use the help.

[garyb]

Just to clarify a little bit as Joe is not much of a computer geek.
When Joe decided to do this tutorial we had the discussion of how he would present it and as it will take user feedback it needed to be on a forum type set up.

One of the problems of posting this tutorial on the Shopbot forum (this is by no means criticism towards SB) is that it needs to be closely moderated to make sure the articles photos and responses are kept in the right order and are not bogged down with idle chat, not to mention setting up a separate Q&A section this will also means regular interaction with Joe for any adjustment to postings.

As I have a forum set up for support to my ArtCam customer base I offered to set up a separate area for Joes tutorials which on completion can remain and or be placed in the likes of the Shopbot Wiki, I will leave that to Joe to decide and work out with Shopbot.

Due to the amount of traffic and number of photos this project is going to take I am making some updates and changes to our system but the final resting place will be up to Joe
I’m sure everyone who gets involved will appreciate not only Joes willingness to share but his vast expertise as one of the top sign men in the business.

[cnc_works]

Joe and Gary...I'm looking forward to it with great anticipation,

Donn

[joe]

I'm greatly relieved Gary's been so kind to offer his forum. He's in the process of getting it all set up for us. I'll be giving it a trial run next week. That means I may be posting soon.

The big advantage of using Gary's place is the topic won't fade away. Future newbees can pull it up without a search. We could also have sign topics such as HOW TO. Giving help on special topics.

Today I drove around town taking photo's of signs to be used as design samples. It takes some serious searching to find many good ones. There's plenty that need help. Wish we had a bus full sign guys driving around analysing signs. We'd have lots of belly laughs.

We all need more good laughs.

[myxpykalix]

we would probably all be on the short bus...

[Call-Tech]

Count me in, Great Idea!

[magic]

Please add me to the list

[ghostcreek]

I too wish to partake. Should I/We will look in this area for a place where this will migrate to?
Thank You to all concerned for the help & sharing. I look forward to this.

[garyb]

Michael the new forum is up and running and currently being tested. Joe is currently putting the first tutorial together, once that is uploaded and we happy with the layout we will release the link here.
Should be sometime this week so please be patient.

[mikeacg]

I'm late to the party I guess but I am looking forward to seeing what Joe has to offer!!
Will there be a test?

Mike

[joe]

Welcome Michael,

Yes there will be a TEST! And the person reviewing your results will be very strict, CRUEL.

I'll give the assignments and when finished you'll have to do the grading. It's going to be very, very tough. Are you sure about this?

[mikeacg]

YIKES!!!!

I can hardly wait for the fun to begin!

Mike

[joewino]

Will we have a prom when the school is over?

[mikeacg]

As long as we don't have to design our own dresses!
I'm glad to see so much interest in this program. We should make it worth Joe's time (Thanks for offering to share your expertise with us, Joe!) and will give us all a better perspective with so many different voices involved!

Mike

[garyb]

The new board has been opened up this morning and can be found at http://beckwithdecor.com/forum/index.php
Joe expects to put the first lesson up in the next few days, which you will find under "Tutorials" in the Applications & Techniques section. You will not see the Tutorials section in your browwer untill such time as you register.

[sailfl]

Gary,

Thank you for setting up the forum so we can take advantage of Joe's lessons.

Regards,

[myxpykalix]

Who wants to be the Prom Queen?

[bleeth]

Sally is the hands down winner.

[joe]

I'm absolutely amazed at the interest in the topic and humbled that you'd take the time to try my treaties on design. When I first approached the subject, my thought was to give it a brief overview and to help a few guys out. It's apparent there's more than a casual interest and I'm excited with the prospect. This is turning into a job.

The chapters I'll be covering haven't changed much but the information within them has. I'm somewhat concerned with my lack of illustrations and the time it would take to fabricate them. So everyone will have to forgive me as I reach way back into my files, to use drawing from previous signs. These closely relate to the guidelines and markers I use today. I hope no one feels I'm being self indulgent, pompous, or braggadocios in my approach. That's always a concern when laying out a program such as this, where one person gives their own perspective.

The topic headings are:

The Qualities of Dominance
Essentials of Negative Space
Magnetism
The Culture of Fonts
Essentials of Panels and Their Shapes

Gary Beckwith has the forum up and running. We'll give it a tryout this week to make sure everything is the way we want it. When I have the first chapter up, I'll let everyone know by posting on this forum.

Everyone is welcome to join in. HOWEVER, this is a subject you can't read about and gain any competence with. No matter how simple the exercises may seem, you will grow only if you put the principals to work. Practice is the answer.

Joe

[jbworden]

Joe,

I wouldn't be overly concerned about coming off as pompous or braggadocios. If a third of my signs looked half as good as the worst of yours I'd count myself as a success.

Remember, it ain't braggin' if you can really do it. I've seen your work. You can do it.

It's a privilege to be able to learn from you.

Jim Worden

[cjohnson]

Joe,
I would also like to participate. I joined Gary's forum this morning and can't wait. This is going to be a family exercise for me as my wife and daughters would also like to learn. We only use the shopbot for charity and fun hobby stuff so our work may not be up the the standards of the other professionals here. But, we do enjoy learning new things with our shopbot and can't say enough good about this forum, its members, and of course the excellent Shopbot tool.
CJ

[joe]

CJ,

I'm glad to hear the whole family will be joining in. These prinipals are so easy to learn but take some experiments to make them work for you. Within a week you'll be looking at signs everywhere and shaking your heads.

Have the kids post a piece or two. They may show us old timers up. I hope so.

[jporter]

Please include me also, I am very excited to join in and I appreciate your helpfulness. Thanks again, joe

[jamesgilliam]

Joe, Jo-Anne and I would like to be included also. With having just a few signs under our belt so far I already find myself looking at what is out there.

[larry_high]

sign me....
thanks for opening this exercise.
LH

[joe]

At last, I have the introduction and a couple of assignments posted on www.beckwithdecor.com/forum (http://www.beckwithdecor.com/forum)

Take a look and play around with the assigments. Although these are very fundamental, it's the heart of the subject. I'll be posting samples as we go along.

Post your trials for assistance and to help others. Don't be bashfull!

[scottbot]

Joe and Gary,
Thanks so much for offering to do this.
What an incredible gift to the rest of us.

I'd like to participate too.
Looking forward to it.

Scott

[butch]

Well, tried to get on the forum. Succeeded yesterday but unable to get on the forum today. Must be an exclusive thing!

Butch

[garyb]

No Butch its not, its just you didn't follow the registration requirements of no alias.
Once you got past that issue you were given full access.
hope you understand.

[butch]

I see that ...now!
Thanks Gary

Butch