ShopBot Link Beta Testers

[Gary Campbell]

Gentlemen...
I wanted to post this to see what and how everyone is doing with the SB Link. I would imagine there are some out there that are waiting to hear if and how it works before pulling the trigger on the purchase.

I will start. I am very happy with what I see in the Link. Options galore, as some other posts I have made attest to. I was going to try and cut a file that I prep'd for this today, but my job got in the way! In order to use my machines full capabilities, there are a couple commands that arent quite working in the beta software to date. Of course my machine doesnt use the OEM version of most commands, and I could simply put in a 5mm or 1/4" bit and cut something, but really wanted to see how the link did for the multi axis, multi tool cutting. Anyone else?
Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

I did have some testing time this weekend.
After getting a copy of Gary's tool change code I was able to get the multi-axis feature functioning.
That is cutting with Z and drilling with A.
Had some depth of cut issues I still need to resolve.
I will do more testing Monday.

[zeykr]

Please do keep us up to date. I'm interested but waiting for you more experienced fellows to sort it out first.

Thanks for the effort and for keeping us in the loop!

Ken

[cookie]

Guys, I'm with Ken about letting you test the link because I'm very computer dumb. I will try it when the kinks are worked out. Bruce

[thewoodcrafter]

Ken,
more experienced

You have almost 2 years and 25 posts on me.
Your no piker.

[gene]

I'm in the same boat as Bruce. I am not computer smart enough to know if its me or the program that isn't doing it right. I'll wait a while

[zeykr]

Roger,
I've been a shopbotter for a fair while and enjoy doing a wide variety of things with it, but I'm only just now getting involved in cabinet making on my machine.

There's so many things that can be done with a shopbot that there's always going to be something new to learn!

[thewoodcrafter]

Well I got the Link to cut out a small wall cabinet yesterday.
No offset in the Z to handle different material thicknesses, just zeroed to the top of the material and it cut fine. Blind, 50% thick dados work well. Full, through dados for the back.
The cutting slowed down for small pieces, the flip operation works for 2 sided machining.
Still need to do more testing/tweaking to get the Z offset to work.
This is a material thickness number passed on from the Link to the ShopBot control program to tell it when a different thickness material is to be cut (back material) in the middle of this 1 cut file so nothing has to be re-zeroed. This will be a nice feature to have.

It is working with 2 Z's.
One for cutting and one for drilling.
No manual tool changing.

[john_hartman]

Sounds like its going to work well for multi-spindle user's. But how is a manual tool change going to work? Anyone tried this yet? Just how feasible is it to cut & drill with a 1/4" bit to avoid the bit change?

[Gary Campbell]

John...
Here is a post that I made earlier:

The only way that you can take full advantage of multiple cutting tools is to have more than 1 cutting head. That is to say you must have a second spindle/router or 1 or more drills.

Roger and I are testing a beta version of the toolchange routine with the SB Link at present. Roger has a second Z and I have a second Z with 2 drills.

From a safety standpoint, I cant see a bit change and rezero during an active cutting file being supported by a tool manufacturer.... ever.

Here is a quote from Ken Susnjara the CEO of Thermwood, posted on the Thermwood Beta Forum:

" OSHA requires that the power connection to the spindle be disconnected in a manner that it cannot be reconnected automatically before a manual tool change (actually to meet the requirement you have to turn it off and place a padlock on the switch). We have a manual “tooling disconnect” switch on Thermwood machines that disconnects the spindle from power and prevents the machine from moving whenever a manual tool change might be needed. If you are going to manually change tools during a program, you need something like this. Otherwise, if someone gets hurt you have big problems, since the machine owner is responsible for meeting OSHA requirements. The best approach is to not manually change tools and live with any limitations."

I am not going to say that this could NEVER happen, but no one with an average amount of common sense could disagree with his statement. No one with an employee in his/her shop will implement something that could put that employee in harms way without facing serious consequences.

You will have the ability to select individual parts and cut them using selected tools. This is, of course, a workaround, but eCabs and the SB Link are high quality software built for feature loaded machines. Those of us with less, will have to be ingenious. This should be no surprise, most ShopBotters have been doing this all along. A power disconnect with lockout on the spindle power cable could perform this task.

Read this as "THERE WILL MOST LIKELY BE NO SUPPORT OF MANUAL TOOLCHANGES DURING FILES PROCESSED THRU THE SHOPBOT LINK BY EITHER SHOPBOT OR THERMWOOD" Please note that these are my words, and not those of either ShopBot or Thermwood.

To that issue, here is another quote from Mr. Susnjara :

"It appears that there are several choices for ShopBot users. First, and I think potentially best for most single spindle machines, is find the smallest diameter tool needed for the job and use it for everything. To be practical, this may require tweaking the designs so they can be processed by a reasonably sized single tool, and yes, along with some design limitations cycle times will be a bit longer. There are really two reasons for a tool change. First, the ability to use larger diameter tools can mean a faster cycle time. This is probably not the case if you have to manually change tools. Manually changing tools in the middle of a cycle is fundamentally not a good idea and, if you are only doing it to speed up processing time, it probably won’t work anyway. The second reason for changing tools is to perform a function (eg. dovetail drawers) that can’t be done with a single tool. In this case, I believe you should only do it if you have either an automatic tool changer or a second head that can be called automatically by the program. Even in this case, I believe manually changing tools should not be done. Every machine has limitations. A single spindle machine working with eCabinet Systems will have limitations and doing something that is inherently dangerous to get around those limitations is wrong. As I understand it ShopBot offers a second spindle and is actively working on an automatic tool changer. These do cost more money but, that additional investment offers payback in the form of additional capability and faster processing. Trying to get around making the additional investment by performing a manual tool change is a poor decision."

Sorry for the long post, Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

Well said Gary.
(even though long winded)

John,
That cabinet was cut out will a 1/4" bit.
I drilled with a 5mm bit.

[dray]

Same here.. I messed with it a bit. But Im in the middle of a large commercial job and I couldn't change mid swing.

[john_hartman]

Ok, thanks Gary, I see the issues. I guess this is the same thing Ryan P. was telling me but I didn't get it. I do have an addition to CPP to do a manual tool change; I haven't tried it though. Adding the air drill is probably the best bet, but I can't afford that just yet.

Roger, what kind of 1/4" bit are we talking about? One that can cut cabinets well without too much deflection and can drill peg holes without burning the veneer ply. Also, what feed rates are you cutting? The good part would be a little better yield...

[thewoodcrafter]

The bit I am using for this testing is a 1/4" 2 flute compression bit. Solid carbide. I generally cut cabinets with a 3/8" bit. But I have designed this test cabinet around a 1/4" bit.

If you are going to use 1 bit for drilling and cutting I would think a straight cut bit would be the way to go.

I have an PRT Alpha with a 3HP spindle. I am cutting at 12,000RPM and at 6IPS with this 1/4" bit.
I cut at 8IPS with a 3/8" bit.
Both at 2 passes.
The neat thing about this software is that it is smart enough to cut full speed for larger parts and slow down for smaller parts. So ideally you can cut as fast as your machine/spindle can handle without thinking/worrying about the parts moving around.
Something else I like about this software setup is that on 2 passes for cutout it cuts the first pass on all parts then goes back and completes the cutout on the second pass.
So the first pass could be 12IPS and the second could be at 2IPS for parts smaller than 100^2 and at 12IPS for everything else.
I have said it before.
It is so nice to have this kind of intelligence available to us on our machine.

[nat_wheatley]

Where do I find the content for the C6, C7 and C9 files to enable the Link to call up different tools? For control software, I'm running version 3.6.1 beta 32, and am only finding generic text in these files.

[Gary Campbell]

Nat...
Until SB releases an official version of these toolchange files, if send me your my_variables file, and a copy of the new segment postP section for each of your drills, and I can build a version for you that should work.
Gary

[nat_wheatley]

Thanks Gary, I just sent the info.

Nat

[bstern]

I have recently upgraded my processor to handle small parts better. It seemed that smaller parts seem to move at the end of the cut through pass. I modded my software to place a 1/4 tab about 1" from the end, then go back and cut the tab very slowly. This seems to get rid of the little "ski jump" at the end. I can now cut 3" X 12" toe kicks with no problems. I am back on my fuji pump with 7" total vac.

I cut only melamine.

My question is, can something like this be put into the shopbot link?

[Gary Campbell]

Bob...
This feature and many more like it are already in there.

You have the option to define the area or width (or both) of small parts and then use a combination of: 1)Tabs, 2)Reduced cutting speed, 3)Leave user defined onion skin on.

Once you set this, and assuming you do not uncheck these options, future jobs will cut using these parameters. You can of course turn them off or change sizes and speeds.

The only feature that I personally find lacking is the ability to do profile cutting in the climb/conventional 2 pass onion skin method. The ability to do this has allowed us to increase cutting speeds close to 50% (to6 & 8 ips from 4ips) on our machine over a typical 2 pass method.

This has been put on my "wish list" and forwarded to the SB Link development team at Thermwood. If you use this method and are interested in or using the SB Link, voice your vote here and I will post a link to this thread on the eCabs Beta Forum. (which most cant see)
Gary

[nat_wheatley]

Strong vote here for the climb/conventional option.

With 1/4" back dadoes, and just the one cutting head, I'm confined to doing my perimeter cuts with this same 1/4" bit.

This bit size coupled with the tolerance of my machine, gives me significant deflection, even at 4ips. The cut/climb method is the only way that I've found to combat this, while at the same time producing decent edges on my parts.

[thewoodcrafter]

Sure would like to here from any other Link Beta testers. I know 6 people are on the list.
Besides Gary and I, 4 other people have the Link.
Where are you?

[benchmench]

Experience eCab user with PRS Alpha, 4 hp spindle, ready for beta testing eCab link - no waiting, same day delivery of feedback at no extra charge!

[thewoodcrafter]

That's funny Dan.

We should have your name on the list.

[thewoodcrafter]

I wanted to post here after the beta forum

I have the Link fully functional.

With 2 cutting heads I have the ShopBot code working for switching between drilling and cutting head.
I also finally got the depth of cut working for different material thicknesses in the same job without re-zeroing.

Very accurate, work great.

[benchmark]

Roger,

That's great, what cutters are you using and are you running in inches or metric ?

Paul

[benchmark]

Roger,

Where is the Beta forum ?


Paul

[woodworx]

Got my beta package this morning. Can't wait to try it out! Justin

[thewoodcrafter]

Paul,

I am using a 1/4" compression bit and a 5mm drill.
I am pretty sure the ShopBot code is NOT setup for metric.

The Beta forum is closed to general users.

[benchmark]

Quote "I am pretty sure the ShopBot code is NOT setup for metric."

That is Ridiculous !!!!

Paul

[Gary Campbell]

Paul...
There is a setting for inches or metric. Nat Wheatley is running the SB Link in metric mode, but on this side of the pond, that is just wrong on sooooo many levels!

Gary

[benchmark]

Gary

You use all 5mm drills... you must come over to the dark side NOW!!! LOL


Paul

[Gary Campbell]

Paul...
I just got back from the shop... nope not metric! they are all.197 INCHES!

Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

Paul,
I know eCabinets can run either way, but the Link interface code I'm running would have to be re-written to work in metric.

[Gary Campbell]

Roger...
I beg to differ here, but in the settings menu, under dimensions, Metric is an option. eCabs will both work and output a nest in metric and the SB Link will also receive and pass thru metric files. Heres a screen shot:

655

Please note that the "nesting DXF" files line is an error. THe SB Link will NOT import or nest dxf files. eCabinets will.
Gary

[benchmark]

Gary,I know that eCabinets works in metric as I have used it for some time, my concern was the Shopbot link translating the metric files.


Paul

[Gary Campbell]

Paul...
That was a cut from the Link Manual. Here is a screen shot from the Link Settings page:

656

Metric, on the bottom, is supported.
Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

eCabinets and the ShopBot Link will work in metric BUT the tool changer code needs to be re-written to work in metric properly.
Why anyone would want to work in metric I have no idea.
You must be a foreigner or something.

[Gary Campbell]

Roger...
Paul is in the UK.. and that's OK. What we have to watch out for is there are some here in the US that still want to use metric.

Must be a hold over from the 32mm system... HELLO... you have a CNC, its not the 80's anymore. There are things in life that dont WANT to be divided by 32. It's called EVERYTHING! You know who you are!

GCMF-11-1

[nat_wheatley]

Paul, pay no attention to their BS. METRIC IS ALL GOOD! They have no idea what they're missing...

[Gary Campbell]

Nat...
Like counting to 25.4 when all the rest of us got to 1? Maybe it was paying attention in school the day we learned to add fractions!

Have a great day... how do you say that in metric?

Gary

[nat_wheatley]

Nothing worse than fractions and long decimals...nothing...not even metric!

[benchmark]

Hey Roger,

Why not come over to the Dark Side and use metric like the rest of the world....it is sooo easy.


Paul

[wberminio]

I think what is easy is what we're use to.
I have and continue to use a hybrid system-
5mm shelf holes-35mm spacing...
cabinet sizes in inches-4'x8' sheets..

Can't we just all get along!


Erminio

[thewoodcrafter]

No way Paul.

I build Euro style cabinets with 5mm holes, 37mm back at 32mm spacing but that is it. Besides the machines do all that for me.
Decimals for everything else is just fine.

[wberminio]

Sorry my metric is off- that's 32mm spacing for system holes!

I also do mainly euro/framless cabinets-
Do I get any points?;)

Erminio

[benchmark]

It's funny really,

I have been using metric for more years than I care to remember but when I describe something I would say 4"x2" or 8'x4' rather than 100x50 or 2440x1220.

We have a story over here about the guy who goes into a timber yard and askes for some 4"x2"
the assistant says,
we have gone metric it is now called 100x50.

The shopper askes how much is the 100x50.

The assistant replys it is a £1 a foot.

Gary asked, Have a great day... how do you say that in metric? Maybe.....Vorsprung durch Technik


Paul

[thewoodcrafter]

I see we have a new release.
3.6.1 Beta33 is out.
Maybe the VO command works now.

[Gary Campbell]

Roger...
VO is working in Beta 33. Will not work from the keyboard and another nice feature.. if file ends... intentionally or not. All offsets are reset to zero.
Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

Gary,
Thanks
I plan on using VO in the new macro area for the flip operation.

[benchmench]

Does anyone know if parts from the other editors in eCabinets such as parts from Part editor, Doors from the Door Designer, drawers from the Drawer Box editor or Faceframe puzzle joints can be nested and cut through the Shopbot link?

[Gary Campbell]

Dan...
Any file that you can save as a .twd in ecabinets can be cut on the Bot using the SB Link. This assumes that you have the proper bits, as many of those specialty "nests" require specialty bits.
Gary

[gerald_martin]

Gary: I'm interested in buying the link...I've had ecabinets for some time and who ever would have dreamed...that something this powerful would happen?

At this time my alpha has a single spindle. Is it practical to make cut cabinet casings making the shelf pin holes and dadoes, cutouts etc all with a .25" cutter? Extra machine time is not super critical for me right now.

Gerald

[Gary Campbell]

Gerald...
You have already answered your own question. Unless there is a special tool required for an operation such as the dovetail drawers, all parts can be cut with a single bit. Let your smallest hole size determine the bit size.

If that is 1/4 or even 5mm, if the file has been designed with the tool diameter in mind, there will be only a minute or two difference in the cutting file. Thermwoods research results show that cutting with a single 5mm bit and drilling all hardware holes results in faster cabinet assembly times, even at the expense of a few minutes of cutting time. There are a good number of commercial guys cutting and drilling with a single spindle and 5mm bit. They do this because it is faster than changing bits or drilling hardware by hand with templates.

I have also heard that ShopBot will be adding a safety lockout to their new products that would allow a manual bit change during a SB Link nested file. I am not sure if there will be a retro version for older machines.

This is a reversal from my earlier opinion where I stated that I didnt believe it would happen with support from either ShopBot or Thermwood. It appears that ShopBot has figured a way to make this a safe operation. I would like to advise all that do this with current or older model machines install a lockout on the spindle power before doing any manual bit changes. It's just easier to type with all your fingers and you might be missed here.
Gary

[gerald_martin]

Thank you Gary. I think my 2008 Alpha with a 3hp Colombo spindle is a candidate then. As a bonus I have a 4x8 vacuum table that works very well.

Now to find the job that buys the link....

Gerald

[cookie]

Guys, do you think a person with less than average computer knowledge can get this link to work? I have been using e-cab for for a few years. I guess I'm a little nervous that I can't get to work, but I was the same way when I bought the shopbot. Maybe I'll have to try it. Bruce

[Gary Campbell]

Bruce...
The learning curve in the SB Link pertains to setting your tool types, diameters, plunge and feed speeds. There are also settings that allow you to select 2 pass, tabbing and onionskin settings based on part size parameters.

The instructions are fairly clear, but not the best, the support for it on the Thermwood forum is great, if you have questions concerning the eCabs/Link tie in. In reality is isn't much more difficult than toolpathing a cabinet job in PartsWorks. In fact it may be easier as you dont have to set the depths. Once you have the settings where you want them, you dont have to touch them again, just apply the same settings to a new material.
Gary

[cookie]

Gary, I guess I might as well spend some money. Thanks. Bruce

[thewoodcrafter]

I am using a 1/4" bit to cut everything and a 5mm bit for drilling. No problems.

I would think if you don't have any drilling capability you can cut and drill with either a 1/4" or a 5mm bit. Machining time is not a big consideration. Just design with that in mind.

I changed from a 3/8" to a 1/4" bit because e-cabinets places a 1/4" dado for the backs.

[Gary Campbell]

And I changed the 1/4" backs to 1/2" so that I could use a 3/8" bit for mortise/tenon and profile cutting, 5mm for system screws in 1 drill and 10mm for leveler legs in the second drill. Possibilities are endless and completely user configurable.

Those that have experience with eCabinets, like Bruce and Roger, have a real advantage here. The real learning curve is with eCabinets, the SB Link is simply an advanced toolpath engine that takes the encrypted TWD file from eCabs and sends it to the ShopBot control software.

One of the nicest features may be nested dovetail drawers available in eCabs. Since these take a couple specialty bits, I will wait til I can afford a second spindle mounted on our 2nd Z.
Gary

[nat_wheatley]

Roger,

What type of 1/4" bit are you using? Also, what feed speed, pass depth, and direction of cut are you using to compensate for bit and machine deflection?

[thewoodcrafter]

Nat,

I'm using a 2 flute compression bit at 12,000RPM at 6IPS.
Conventional cut, 2 pass (max .4")

I tried 8IPS today and had just too much deflection.

I have .020" tolerance set up in eCabinets for dado fit. The fit is a little sloppy. I'll have to narrow this down with more experience in cutting with the Link.

Something I found in using the Link with a good nesting engine is bit deflection is not a big problem. Because you tell the Link how much space you want left over between parts after the bit has cut it's first part. I have it set to .010". The bit only has to cut .010" off the next part. Granted not all parts have another one next to it but this seems to help.

[Gary Campbell]

Roger..
Are you cutting climb or conventional? I am hoping to cut another file on Sun afternoon. Will be using the 3/8 bit. I have found that at 6ips I get over .025 deflection (watermark) when I cut both conventional. My edge quality suffers when I cut both climb.

Nat...
Did you get your drills working with the VC command?

Gary

[nat_wheatley]

Thanks Roger.

Even at 4ips, 2 passes I get significant deflection with a 1/4" bit. For the time being I've switched to a 3/8" bit/5 ips/12K RPM's, 2 passes for all parts, cutting half way for each pass. Good results there.
Many of my parts have a 1/4" dado for the backs, so with just one cutting head, I'll need to come up with a plan to make the 1/4" bit work for all cuts. Without the climb/conventional option in the Link, I'm not sure how I'll go about this. I'd like to think this is a possible future option in the software

Gary,

For some reason, in the files created in the Link, the bit seems to move very quickly from one hole to the next, no pause. Maybe the postP setup, dunno. I've been keeping it running for the duration, and been pleased. It didn't look like I'd pick up much at all turning it off between my shelf holes. Haven't needed to go to the VC...yet.

Very efficient program. Though I've only done basic machining, no dadoes etc., all good. Everything really does seem to zip along. Support, fantasic. Aside from the climb/conventional option, I don't know that I could ask for anything much better.

Gary, thanks, once again, for all the help and patience in getting this running for me.

[woodworx]

I will be running my first kitchen next week. Interesting casework material. It is a pre-finished OSB. I am designing all the cabinets now. I will be using a 5mm bit to machine everything. I will post my results. Justin