Help with masking for machining

[Rookie432@aol.com]

Hello,

Is anyone using a paint mask that can be machined. I'm currently in the process of carving some raised letter signs and am having trouble finding a paint mask that the router bit doesn't tear and curl in the machining process. Ideally I would like to pre-paint my letter colors on wood, apply a low to medium tac mask, machine the sign, then spray coat backround and peel. Masking tape and vinyl doeesn't work. Too soft. The material must be brittle enough to cut like wood.
Any suggestions??

[billp]

Bill, I have been using a mask from Harbor Sales (800-345-1712) for the last two years, and it works very well.I use it in exactly the manner you describe above, and it leaves NO residue on highly finished surfaces. You can get it in rolls of 15"x 30', 30"x30',or rolls up to 150'long..They call it their "Paint Mask Film,Economy Spray Mask". I pay about 32 bucks for the 30"x30'roll.
It is actually an Avery product, part#A1828-S-E, and you might have a local distributor closer than Harbor. Avery has a web site-www.averygraphics.com. Bill P.

[Bill Jarvis]

Bill,
Ordered mask yesterday and recieved and tested today. Works great!! Thanks for the tip.

Bill

[rossi7@mindspring.com]

Having trouble setting up a dxf file for routing. Can either in Siglab or Vector. Sign is overdue. Still learing both, but time is running out. Can anyone lend a hand until i get the hang of this thing>

Matt

[jamie@shopbottools.com]

Matt,

Call us here at ShopBot 1-888-680-4466
Jamie can help you with SignLab. Or email
jamie@shopbottools.com (mailto:jamie@shopbottools.com)


Thanks!
Donna
ShopBot Tools

[ron_cleaver]

Harbor Sales has a Web site http://www.harborsales.net/

I ordered some Avery paint mask online. I used only the following to search for the item: A1828.

That produced a list of products (different lengths and widths).

[Bruce Boehle]

To all you veteran signmakers out there. I am trying to do fine detail carvings in furniture but still need to mask them for finishing. I am using the Avery 1828 mentioned here and it will not stay down in the fine areas (fine areas being 1/32" wide). Is there a product with a bit more tack? Maybe some tricks? Thanks, Bruce

[billp]

Bruce,
For detailing like that I've used both scotch tape and masking tape. Of course it's a pain to go in with the razor blade/knife and weed it all, but it does work...

[artisan]

Your local art store will carry a brushable mask or "resist", used in doing watercolors, that can be applied to small areas and then pulled or rubbed off. It works well for small details....D

[artisan]

Hi Bruce, another solution we use here is a paintable mask, available at your local art store. It's used as a "resist" by watercolor artists and can be pulled or rubbed off after the finish is applied....D

[artisan]

Sorry...I didn't think the first one posted....ooops

[Bruce Boehle]

Thank you all. I will give all those options a try.
BB

[Dan B. (Unregistered Guest)]

I going to try the Avery paint mask. What I need to know is. What punched,no punch mean.
Thank you
Dan B.

[stickman]

Dan,

Punched or no punch is for computer printer type feeding, like what the old dot matrix computer printers us to use. You'd use no punch.

Jay,
StickMan WoodWorking

[Brady Watson]

I've been doing a lot of fiberglass work lately...Just wondering if anyone has used PVA (poly vinyl acrilate) as a paint mask. It washes right off with water (which may not be a good thing depending on substrate painted) and costs next to nothing to use.

-Brady

[kerrazy]

PVA Glue?
Dale

[Brady Watson]

No...

PVA release agent for use with fiberglass layup. It is water soluable and protects the waxed mold from sticking to the fiberglassed part you are laying up. I spray it on the mold with an airbrush in a light mist and do about 3 coats...each dry in about 10min. It washes off of the finished part with soap and water, leaving a nice shiny finish.

-Brady

[jf_allie]

I was curious to know if anybody had experimented with Glad Press 'n Seal as a paint mask...

[glorydayssigns@hotmail.com]

I sent away to avery graphics for some of the 1828-S-E mentioned above and they sent me 1830-S saying it is the same but it tears and curls up when I route with it. Does anyone know if the 1828-S-E works better? Is it a bit more brittle or anything? I'm at my wits end trying to finish these routed signs. Please help

[cnc_works]

I haven't tried the Avery mask yet, but I did get some Gerber Mask II and it works great. It is a lot more expensive than the Avery, but it cuts crisply and leaves a clean edge. Even down to 5/8" high text.

The only hassle is weeding smaller text, but I suspect that will be true with any mask.

Donn

[Robert Ferguson (Unregistered Guest)]

Donn, Do you have a contact number for the gerber mask II. Is it router friendly? I really appreciate the advise. Thanks. Rob

[cnc_works]

You should be able to get the mask through any supplier that sells sign vinyl. My local supplier is Sun Supply (Portland, OR) and they will even sell it by the foot in 15" or 30" widths.

I use a PC 890 router and as I posted previously, it cuts just fine with a 90deg bit. I am about to try it with much larger letters and a 120deg bit.

Of course, my only experience so far is cutting into MDF, both raw and painted.

Donn

[Rob Ferguson (Unregistered Guest)]

Donn, Thanks for replying. I forgot to mention I am in Ontario, Canada. I use a portable router for signs on pine and oak. The bit I use is a 1/8 straight double flute bit and I sink the letters 1/8 of an inch deep. What is Sun Supply's phone number. Hopefully they have a 1-800 number. Thanks again Donn. Rob

[cnc_works]

Go to www.sunsupply.com (http://www.sunsupply.com) and you will see all their locations. Unfortunately, none back east.

I would be surprised if you could not find a local vinyl dealer to order it for you.

Donn

[Rob Ferguson (Unregistered Guest)]

Thanks for your help Donn. Greatly appreciated. Rob

[Rob Ferguson (Unregistered Guest)]

Thanks for your help Donn. Greatly appreciated. Rob

[jhicks]

Great topic and one I now also need some advice on. Sign is to be V carved in 15# HDU. I've carved up some samples in material received at Jamboree and have no carving issues BUT do have a lot of painting questions.
Used water based primer and it worked fine but am now painting interior of letters and contrasting background colors. Extremely difficult to edge the letters crisply with foam rollers, foam brushes or art brushes.
From what I'm reading the key is probably pre paint base, mask, and fill after on letters or border cust.
Can anyone confirm this approach? The production signs will be 2 ea 3' X 4" plus 3 ea double sided danglers so I need to do my experimentation now and not on production materials.
The 2 sides will be sandwiched in MDO or perhaps PVC to give strength and facilitate mounting but the painting is the key issue.
I hear one should seal edges of MDO but if anyone can confirm best material or method, I would appreciate it.
Thanks

[billp]

Jerry,
That's basically it. If you do a search on "paint mask" on this Forum you'll find a ton of info...

[davidallen]

Jerry,

Base coat, mask, and cut are the right sequence.

what little sign work I've done I've found that sealing the cut surfaces is almost necessary.

I've used both clear and the base coat color as sealant. both worked OK. both bled under the mask in spots but weren't noticable from a distance.

remember, you're not just sealing the surface of the cut, you're also sealing the mask/surface edge.

da

[joe]

David,

Hello my friend.

There probably isn't anyone better on this topic than Dale Kerr. You would be well served to give him a call. There are several steps, too long to list here, that will solve the bleeding through problem as well as getting a good clean cut.

Dale and I had a long productive discussion on this topic about this a month ago. He's very gracious with the information.

Hope to see you somewhere down the trail.

Joe

[davidallen]

Joe,

Hellooooo back at 'cha.

I'm sure I could improve my technique a lot by tapping into the expertise of those who do it for a living.

I make maybe a dozen 'masked products' a year (usually for myself or as a favor for a friend) and usually I'm stuck using what I can find at H.D. (like adhesive shelf paper for masking) when you're making do, you sometimes have to compensate for things like bleed or tear-out and be willing to accept the consequences of using what's easily obtained.

Happy Trails,

da

[joe]

David,

Here is a quick description of the process.

Sand and paint the blank panel. The moother the better

Carefully clean the surface, and apply Gerber Mask 2.

Burnish down hard, and route. Burnish again.

Spray a light coat of Bullseye Sehllac in the letters. Now paint a light of the original background color in the well of the letters. This is the sealing process.

Finally: Wax the mask, lightely buff, and paint the letters your favorite color.

Remove the mask and your done.

Joe

[davidallen]

Joe,

What's the purpose of waxing the mask, to keep the paint from sticking along the edge and pulling out of the letters? If so, do you need to worry about wax getting in the cuts or would it be better to wax before cutting?

Thanks,

da

[joe]

D.

The wax beads up paint, keeping if from sticking to the edge of the mask. Once your on to the process it goes rather fast.

j

[jhicks]

Thank you all. I am in agreement, Dale Kerr is a fantastic guy and a wealth of info.Your notes also are appreciated. I have seen many well documented details of the step by step on the forum and THINK, I'm ready to go. Once completed, I'll post the results.

[kerrazy]

Joe, you are awful close to my use of mask, but here is my process for those of you following this thread.

1. Prime and paint sign blank as though it was being delivered to the client, so all coats are completed. (in my shop we do 2 coats of primer and a minimum of 3 coats of finish)
2. ensure at least 24 hours has passed on the last coat of finaish and then apply Gerber Mask II and burnish it to the surface with a vinyl squeegee, and then go over it a agin with a J-roller, to ensure good adhesion.
3. apply paste wax to the entire surface of the mask.
4. cut on router.
5. use a scotch pad to remove any hair (fraid mask) from the edges of the carved areas.
6. Use your J-roller again over the entire surface to ensure all edges are sealed tight.
7. back fill carved areas with a thinned version of the surface colour to seal edges.
8. apply primer to carved areas
9. apply finish to carved areas.
10. LIGHTLY sand surface of the mask with 120 grit paper and palm sander to break the edges of the carved areas. This is where the application of the wax comes in handy, it reduces the possibilty of the paint ahesion to the mask and will ensure you have a clean edge every time.
11. remove mask.

If you follow those steps to the letter, I guarentee you will have little if any bleed. If you fill your carved areas with one shot paint, pull the mask off before it is dry and you will not have to sand the surface and have an even cleaner edge.

Dale

[george_brooks]

Dale,

Thanks for the steps in using the mask. I had a big problem when I removed the mask today for the first time. Most of the adhesive stuck to the finished coat. I used lacquer and wonder if this has anything to do with how the mask comes off the finshed coat. I used Gerber II and Gerber I and allowed the lacquer to dry over 24 hours. When I pulled some of the edges of the mask back up to get out some air bubbles, the mask came off the the finished coat clean. My problem is after I paint the craved letters the adhesive transfers to the finished coat and dose not stay on the mask. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you

George

[richards]

George,
I had the same problem with Gerber II and lacquer. Try top-coating the lacquer with shellac before applying the Gerber II. After routing and before painting apply another coat of shellac. Even with the shellac, I still have moderate problems with adhesive residue.

[george_brooks]

Mike,

Thanks, I'll try the shellac and maybe a different paint like acrylic enamel. The mask is worthless if you have to clean up the residue.

[kerrazy]

What did you paint the carved areas with? if it was laquer or solvent based, peel the mask right away so it does not have time to get at the adhesive. just be mindfull not to let the mask touch the surface or you will have done all that work in vain. Ensure that you cut the tension on the carved adges by sanding with some 120 paper before you take the mask off.
Any residue should clean up with water, so don't worry about it, just ensure the rest of the surface is cured before you start trying to clean off the residue.
Dale

[george_brooks]

Dale,

I used lacquer in the carved letters with some retarder to slow down the drying time because of the high humidity this time of the year in the northeast. I gave it about 30 minutes before I pulled off the mask and used paint thinner to remove the residue. I'll try to remove the mask ASAP after I spray the letters and clean up the residue with water. Maybe there won't be as much residue after a shot of shellac as Mike mentioned. Thank you both for your help.

[richards]

George,
Try 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner, Part No. 051135-08984 to remove the adhesive. Even with the shellac barrier, there seems to be sufficient bleed-though to case problems. The 3M product seems to remove the adhesive without ruining the paint.

[jhicks]

For those of you who provided advice and encouragement on this thread I am posting the final results as promised PLUS a big thank you for all the input. The signs shipped today. All are double sided 1 1/2" HDU with 1/2" MDO center stiffener. A three week adventure scratching my head and waiting for paint to dry praying that it would be OK when the mask came off, but a pleasurable and challenging project. I may have even made a few bucks. A special Thank You to Dale Kerr who has been with me every step of the way and most generous in his time and quality advice. I can't wait for the class Dale, I'm sure there's much more to learn.
No one said it was easy but it sure beats that boring old day job!
Avery mask SUCKS! But blue painters tape to patch and carefully trimmed rescued the efforts. Next time I'll listen and use Gerber for sure.
Hope you enjoy the photo.
I know the next one will be more efficient but it was a great learning experience!
5655

[jhicks]

As a final comment to this thread, we shipped the sign and received a note from the customer that said "I just received the sign today and it is AWSOME!" They also copied their corporate buyer so hopefully that will generate more opportunities.
Thanks to Dale Kerr and those contributors to this sign making forum topic plus lots of hours, and cautious concerns, at least one new customer seems to think the collective knowlege and implementation was more than they expected. I couldn't ask for a better response.So thank you all. The forum makes us all BIGGER THAN LIFE!