Sandblast texture

[ghostcreek]

Hey folks, this seems to be an old issue (according to my search). I have a possible job for 25+ signs for two Medical office buildings. Currently the signs are a hodge-podge of designs and management wants them all standardized (lucky me). What I need to make is:
7.25" x 30", Pocketed letters (1st Line: Name, 2nd line: specialty) with a sandblasted woodgrain backround.
I have tried the Texture tool in Aspire,but doesn't look right. I read about using a photo of woodgrain to create a 3D texture. Anyone care to offer some suggestions? Thanks folks
Michael

[signtist]

If your using Aspire, you can import any woodgrain texture bitmap to use for the background. If they want that many signs why not just make them from wood and blast them.
I put the sandblast tape on the wood and cut around the letters and border with a 1/8" bit, then pocket the background down about 1/4" deep.
Then you just need to lightly blast to expose the grain. If you use Aspire to make woodgrain texture, on some other type of material, it's going to take a looooooong time to machine that many sign panels.
john www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

[joe]

John's described the process I use too.

I haven't seen very many woodgrain textures made with a CNC that looks believable.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/jcrumley1/SandblastMastcutwithrouter.jpg



http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/jcrumley1/OklahomaFamiliesComplete.jpg

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[ghostcreek]

Thank You, I was afraid that was the correct way to do it. I've never sandblasted anything smaller then a Navy Destoyer, but it would solve this dilemma. Love learning new skills. I am always trying to get the Bot to do it all. Thanks again.

[rb99]

How do you prevent the mask from peeling up wood?

[signtist]

The mask is made for raw wood. I spray a little extra spray mist adhesive on the wood first. The kind you use to hold T Shirts in place while printing, not the 3M Super Strength stuff Heartco HGS425 tape.
You can order from SignWarehouse 800-899-5655.
Don't blast it yourself, it's a dirty, nasty job. The blasting is very quick and cheap part of thr process. It's best to take it to a blaster. Ask me why I don't blast my own anymore!!!

[joe]

Richard,

Your concern is a valid one. During the heat of the summer it can be a big problem if the blasting takes too long and embeds the SB mask.

Like John says, it only takes a little blasting and should be done with very, very fine grit. You gotta be there to say woooo to some blasters. They are used to cleaning rust off of metal. It take a little more deliclate touch.

I allways sand the surface after blasting. I don't think you'll have a problem.

If you do, lets blame old man Arnott!

Joe
WWW.normansignco.com (http://WWW.normansignco.com)

[jjyoder]

Michael,

You could use HDU and sandblast it using a Grain-Fraim http://www.meyerplastics.com/signandgraphics/sandblasting_tools_sht.htm. You could make one since it is just a series wires stretched across a frame that you lay over the piece you want to sandblast. HDU is a more stable material then wood is, although the size you are doing, it shouldn't be a problem with wood either.

Jerry

[rb99]

People would wreck way finding signs made out of foam.

RIB

[ghostcreek]

Here is my latest attempt at this effect/texture. It has been bugging me for awhile, always at the back of my mind to do this. please comment;

5698

[signtist]

Looks Good! The texture comes right up to the edge of the letters.
Is that made from the texture tool or a bitmap 3D?
How big are the letters and bit used?

[ghostcreek]

Thank You John. The background was a wood grain picture I converted into a 3D component, tweaking the z-Height to make it look good. The Letters were a font(type), converted into "vectors", then converted into a 3d Component. Made an outline to the letters 0.0625" bigger then the letters, so it didn't cut the letters faces. I took the backround and cleared the area where the type went (so I had my background with "holes" in it). The letters are 1 5/8" tall, only used a 0.125" ball nose to cut. 7.25"x30" sign took 1.5 hours on a standard Bot. (not Alpha). Hope I explained it OK. Takes alot of tweaking, which I still need to do more of. But I am hoping I am on the correct track.

[dvmike]

If this is still an open issue............

I had the same problems last summer when I got my shop Bot and started in the Sign venture.
The POAs that we make certain signs for are in the western N.C. mountains and wanted a "rustic, balsted" background in theior signs.
We worked with it and worked with it ! In fact we bought Aspire for that simple reason.
But still had issues!
We had Shop Bot send a tech in to help us out (Ryan)
Ryan caught on to what we were trying to accopmplish and had the idea to change the moves to jogs or vice versa.
The Bot was lifting to clear vectors and leaving a herky jerky texture just like the photo that was posted.
His remedy worked great!
After we/he figured this out he assigned a post processor that had no moves(only jogs) and when we do a textured sign we just use that post processor .
Hope this helps.

[rb99]

I don't understand, but I think you had to slow down the jogs?

I would just change the jog speed or the move speed manually when running the file...no?

RIB

[mikeacg]

Mike,

What was that Post Processor called (do we have it on our machines)? Or can we get a copy of it to try?

Mike

[robtown]

Ryan Rocks!

[carvesigns7]

I have a vector sandblast texture that works well
If interested email me
create3d@optonline.net


5699

[mikeacg]

Nice looking texture! Do you cut this as a V-carve path? (I sent you an email...)

Mike

[dakers]

curious about this:
has anyone in this forum burned up spindles running 3d files using HDU. we have had to replace two 5hp perskes and one columbo immediately after long runs.
Then we paid thousands for an exchange spindle.
Could be we were doing something wrong. Was using small carbide bits. could not use dust collector. spindle running 24hours straight.

[GlenP]

Dick, I don't run a spindle but use a router. Are you running fan cooled spindle? Would a water cooled do better for longer runs? If you are cutting HDu can you go to a smaller spindle (2.2 hp). HDU cuts so easy. I am also curious about this post processor edit that Ryan did for Mike. I have one customer that I cut signs for and he still prefers to blast as cnc texture is still not close enough for him.
Mike can you post a pic of your texture results? Very curious to see them.

[carlcnc]

Dick
What failed ? the bearings? or did the motor burn up ? bearings get too hot and the grease cooks,
It's my understanding that ALL air cooled spindles have "duty" cycles of 60-70%
ie; not meant to run 24 hours continuous.
That's why they developed water or compressed air cooled ones.
Carl

[dakers]

Glenn, Carl, thanks,
i did not see a fan in the spindles like i see in the shop bot 2.2 spindle we have. I am sure it was the bearings that went bad. I never knew about air cooled , water cooled and duty cycles. i forget the cost of trade in but i think it was between $2,000 and $3,000 per failure. It was a Gerber Sabre router running 3phase spindle with phase converter.
We only have the shop bot now but for some reason i like the shop bot better. does not look so intimidating to me if we need to replace something. but back to the hdu texture. we just started blasting with grain frame. Learning curves are so hard for me and maybe i did not learn what the root problem was. just gave up.

[toych]

Dick,

Dont give up on the bot for texture, I have had some good results.

I have not run the bot for 24 hours but have carved a sign that was 10.5 hours a side in HDU. For that sign I used a 1/4 tapered ball nose from Conical which lets me use the dust boot.

I have done others in Sign Foam that were in the 4 hour range and have not had a hiccup with the 2.2 spindle.

The only time I run without the dust boot is when I am cutting the blank out of the sheet.

I have had the machine for 18 months now so it could be getting close to PM time on the spindle.

[joe]

Darren,

Please post your woodgrain textures.

[toych]

You're right Joe, they are more woodgrain than sandblast texture.
I like the effect myself and it is getting closer to how I picture it each time.

I really like the look of the one you posted awhile ago done in pine. For a family center or some place like that.

Darren

These are all Sign Foam.



5700
5701
5702
5703

[joe]

Darren,

Good examples. There are two considerations. The first is time. Large 3D files are too slow to make it financialy viable. Then there is the need, for my shop, to make it look like mother natures work.

I'm sure there's a way. I just haven't found it. Keep up the good work.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)


5704


5705


5706

[rej]

joe,
on the bottom pic, are the letters and their borders cut seperate, painted and then assembled?
in 2 layers and then put on sign?

[toych]

That is the sign I was referring to Joe.

I really like the shape of the panel. And the look of the grain.

The sign with the owl on it was close to 4 hours machine time if I remember correctly. Plus each owl was 20- 30 minutes. I ended up only using one owl, anyone need a foam owl........?

I don't do sandblasting but how does the 4 hour machine time compare with cutting mask and blasting? The sign is 24" x 36" approx.

[joe]

Robert,

The letters are HDU cut and shaped on the router as seperate pieces. Gilded with 23K. The background is one piece sandblasted and painted.

Darren,

The first photo shows a panel with the mask cut with the router, then an area clear. From there blasting takes less than five minutes. This is the fastest way I've found to make a dimensional sign. And, and, and, the wood is Yellow Pine which I purchased at Lowe's for about eight dollars.

You gotta be choosey with this lumber. I go to the end the wood rack and look at each board for vertical grain. The tighter the better.
Sometimes I'll buy a 12"X8 stick which has both vertical and flat grain. With the table saw the flat grain goes in our woodburning stove. Unlike cedar or redwood, this lumber is very hard and heavy.


5707
5708

Next month the "Oklahoma Families" sign will be one year old. Last week Ron and I paid a visit to see how it was holding up. So far there wasn't any signs of cracks or splits. That's primairly due to vertical grain, which is incredably stable on any wood.

Keep in mind, this lumber is green. It's not kiln dried. Even so, after consideerable testing I'm using it on a regular basis because of it's beauty, availability and price. Due to it's weight, I wouldn't try anything larger than 2'X8'

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[rb99]

Nice work Joe.

Why would you not use Western Red Cedar?

Is the pine as durable as the cedar?

Thanks,

RIB

[joe]

Richard,

We have a couple of Cedar's available. None of which is vertical grain or kiln dried. I am using more of the Rough Cedar but it's used only for less detailed work.

I seldom, if ever, recommend YP to other sign artists because most don't have a CNC. That's the deal breaker. Even on this forum there aren't many folks familiar with gluing up sign panels. We started up years ago when that was the way it was done.

About longevity: With a well prepared YP panel, I can't see why it wouldn't last. One little note, I've been treating this material with Borax to eleminate bugs or wood eating pests.

To my knowledge, I'm the only sign guy using this material on a regular basis. It's been a couple of years and all looks good so far.

My HDU use is to close to nothing and my Redwood is 0. All of which reflects considerable increase in profit.

[rej]

joe,
i'm confused about the dot above the letter i.
the outline around the dot seems different than the letters.
it is raised but has grain going thru it.
am i seeing things here?

[joe]

Good pick-up Robert.

I had posted this process earlier and another SBer picked up on the dot. It was a router design error. I fixed it with a plug. You may choose to do a search to see the process. Most of my signs are done with the background of the letters larger. That way I can cut the actual letters and apply in the finishing process.

I'm not suggesting anyone follow my lead. It is however my way of getting signs done quickly with cleaner lettering


5709

[rej]

while i've got you here,
what paint mask do you prefer for hdu?
and which is your choice for sandblasting?
thanks

[joe]

I don't have a favorite paint mask. Hand lettering takes care of most of that. Any of todays SB masks seem to work fine. My blasting is so light almost anything would work.

[mjindustry]

Joe, Nice work!

What type of wood is the "Oaks Property" sign sandlasted from, is it YP as well? Amazing sign!

[joe]

Jason,

This sign is made with HDU. Signs of this size can be made much faster and will last longer without the issue of warping, spliting or cracking we find with wood.

Sometimes it's necessary to use the real thing. I have one in the shop now which is 40"X72" which will be made with vertical pine. This is for a Bed & Breakfast and the customer wants a natural look which will feature the knots. It takes special attention to make sure it will last for years and years. I'll be coating this one with Sikkens Log and Siding.

Keep in mind, to survice in this arena, correct pricing is essential. Carved sign, where the background is removed or textured, with raised letters will need to be priced at a minimum of $100 per square foot. That's the bare minimum. A 3'X6' sign should be invoiced somewhere in the 2K area.

I see a few low ball signs of this kind but they don't last long.

[signtist]

Let me try posting a picture in here.
This one is about 30 square feet of HDU. It took 32 houre to run, using a 1/8 " ball but. The grain is about 1" deep!
John
www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

[joe]

Thanks John for posting your Fire Department sign.


This is a classic example of how grain looks when a jpg is enlarged to replicate woodgrain. For years I've been trying to find a way around this problem. For those who haven't worked on this, let me explain what happens.


Lets say you take a photo of a beautiful sandblasted board thats 8”X48”. If you enlarge the photo to double it's size, you also increase the grain pattern which looses much of mother natures delicate patterns. I went so far as to laminate a 4'X8' redwood panel up and sandblast it, thinking I'd have a model to use on the router. I placed the camera on tripod, got the sun at the right angle and set my Nikon to it's highest resolution and too the photo.


I've made several attempts at making a reasonable router duplication of sandblasted wood and my best attempt was a cartoon look. It's also very time consuming. Here's a couple of examples I worked with which looses out when routing. I think you can see the deliclate nature and how difficult it is to maintain. To underscore this situation: Why aren't there lots of wood grain pattern files offered by ArtCam and Vetric 3D? I'm a owner of ArtCam and they have some very weak examples but nothing you can make money with.

[GlenP]

Hey guys. Has anyone bought and tried Dan's texture collection? Here is a link to is site. Man he is one creative guy.
http://www.imaginationcorporation.ca/textures/index.html

[bob_s]

Joe
My background is photography and 2d digital graphics, I have been trying to solve this, but so far the problem seems to be in the cad/cam software.
I have found that for me the issue is apparently in Aspire. It uses 65,000 steps of gray to describe the height field, but when you import a texture it will only see 0 - 255. That is why you get only a shallow depth change. There also seems to be an awful lot of "noise" regardless of how big or clean the bitmap file is.
I took the liberty of altering your plank file to enhance the grain and importing it. The attached images show the 3d preview and the expected output when cut with a .125 ball nose at 9% step over. It isn't bad, but it isn't right either.
If anyone has any ideas about how to get the cad programs to accept files in a different way i would love to test it. I can create a B&W file with any characteristics needed including 16 bit depth, just can't get it into the CAD program.
Bob

[joe]

Bob,

Thanks for posting your experience. I've been down this road also with much the same experience.

Glen,

Dan's textures are all cartoonish. That's his field and he's good at it. Do you remember Jewel Vern's Voyages. Those design live on today and are know as Steam Punk. Everything is powered by kooky steam engine contraptions.

[chiloquinruss]

Bob and Joe, thinking out loud, what if we had a layered wood grain image? What we would have is a woodgrain file to cut but there would be several layers to be cut, each one generating its own cutpath. These when combined together would give you a great deal of depth and individual controls (I think). :) You could even have bit changes and use several different bits to gain resolution to the wood grain. Just a thought. Russ

[joe]

Russ,

Fortunately we have real wood available. I like it better than synthetics. It's fun to carve, sand and paint.

Sometimes we get going down the wrong path. That's what is happening with synthetic boards and expensive 3D programs.

I appreciate your input and would like to see what you come up with.

[wmcghee]

Joe, what is the method for gluing up Pine boards to use for signs? And what kind of glue, just yellowglue, i.e. Titebond.

In my area, Pine is the only readily available material within a 30 mile radius. Actually I think its Spruce, it is more white and I think looks great for making rustic looking furniture. Also, and I Googled this and couldn't find much info. But I have always heard that Hemlock, which I've been told is the same wood as Spruce, is naturally bug resistant.

[joe]

Wayne,


The Yellow Pine I'm using is plantation grown. It comes from Lowe's and is cheap. Let me caution you it's green. Squirrels were in living in it a week ago. This wood will not normally be flat or strait so you have to be chosey.


First off, look at the ends of the boards for vertical grain. Then lay them on the floor to see if they are flat. The centers will need to be removed on a table saw. For me the glue up is Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue. I mix it up to the thickness of pancake batter or peanut butter. A stiff 1” chip brush is good for painting on the mixture.


I have no experience with Spruce or Hemlock. I'd have to run tests outside. Here's what I do when testing. Cut slabs up and throw them outside against a fence. In six months you'll know .