NEW VINYL PAINT MASK THAT WORKS!!!!!

[kerrazy]

Hey guys and gals
Dale here from Traditional Sign Werks.
You may remeber me talking to you folks who attended the Jamboree about Gerber Mask 2 as a very effectice paint mask. Well since that time, John Murphy of Alstar Advisives has been working with me to create a product just as good and frankly cheaper and easier to get.
We have just finished testing his product here at Traditional Sign Werks and it is great! minimal and I mean minimal bleed with an exceptional high tack mask that leaves no visible residue when removed.

Now for the kicker.
I was paying 197. USD for Gerber mask 2 that was only available in a 15 inch wide X 50 yard roll. John tells me he can produce and sell the same 50 yard roll for $132.00 and also offer a 25 yard roll for only $72.00. He is currently working on pricing for a teaser length of 10 yards, so hobbyists can try it out.

For more information you can contact All Star Adhesives
All Star Adhesive Products, Inc
30 Cutler Street
Warren
Rhode Island
02885
USA

800 878 7827 (phone / toll free)
401 247 1866 (phone)
401 247 7711 (fax)

www.allstaradhesives.com (http://www.allstaradhesives.com) Website

info@allstaradhesives.com (mailto:info@allstaradhesives.com)

If you have any questions please feel free to drop me an email. sales@traditionalsignwerks.com (mailto:sales@traditionalsignwerks.com)


Dale

[kerrazy]

He has a yard price of $32.00

good luck
Dale

[kerrazy]

sorry 10 yard pricing is $32.00

Dale

[jseiler]

i bought some to try my hand at signmaking. I'm having problems getting paint mask to stick to painted surfaces. I can understand not wanting to stick to mdf primer (Kilz), but I would think it would stick nicely to varithane. It seems to stick pretty well to bare wood. To solve this problem, I bought some Bob Dively paint on mask, but there are times when vinyl mask just makes sense. Any way to improve the adhesion on painted and finished surfaces? Do I just need to use different paint and finish?

Regards,
John

[kerrazy]

John,
I have sent you an email.

[mrdovey]

Dale...

If you have suggestions for making this stuff stick better, it might be worth posting them here. Yesterday I routed two 12' signs and this stuff [1] didn't stick well at all; and [2] didn't cut cleanly with sharp new bits.

I got Extira dust under all the cut edges and they don't re-stick. My plan is to pick up some small brushes on my way into the shop this morning and spend the day doing a lot of hand-painting.

When I ordered this stuff I asked John to send along any guidelines for use he had - or e-mail 'em if they were in electronic form. Never did receive either; but decided to hope for the best and cut now rather than risk having to install the sign in snow.

I'm pretty sure I did something horribly wrong.

[jseiler]

Dale, thanks for the info. I'll probably call Friday.

Morris, I found when I peeled the backing off, it wasn't as sticky as standard old shelf vinyl I had been using. It seems to work pretty well on bare wood, but what's the point of that? I need to prepaint blanks, v-carve, then paint the inside. I saw the thread Dale wrote a while back on signmaking steps, and I pretty much followed those. I'm fairly sure this stuff won't survive anything but v-cutting. A while ago, I tried making yard sale signs with shelf paper. I went around the inside and outside of the letters, hoping I could just peel away the cutout letter, but all it did was rip the crud out of the shelf paper and make a mess of the painting. They were just yard sale signs though.

[jseiler]

I found a J roller at lowes (its in the laminate section near countertops) and that really helps. Before I was just smoothing it down the best I could by hand. I prepainted my blanks with paint then used water based polycrylic over the top that that and sanded it as smooth as I could. I find that it won't seem to hold very well over polyurethane, but over polycrylic, it seems to do pretty well.

[mrdovey]

Finally got the sign painted and hope to have it installed this coming week. For anyone interested, I've posted photos of the major steps at this web page (http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/PT_Sign.html).

...Morris

[joe]

MD.

Thanks for the very complete review of the process you went through. It's very encouraging.

What method did you use to register the long panel?

Dale K. keeps urging me to try the mask technique, which works well for him, but it's still in the future for me.

I really like your shop. I'm jealous.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[mrdovey]

Joe...

There wasn't anything really difficult about any of it. If I'd planned to do the job without the mask, it'd have been easier still - because I could have held off priming and applying background color until the text had been cut.

I have a 2x4 registration rail at y=0. Initially, I moved the bit to (-tool_radius,18) and lowered it to within 1/4" of the table. Then I slid the sheet along the rail until it touched the bit. I clamped the sheet in place and cut as usual.

To reposition the sheet, I made a vertical mark on the edge of the sheet and another 48" away on the spoilboard. Then I loosened the clamps and slid the sheet along the registration rail until the two pencil marks lined up. Then I reclamped the sheet and was ready to cut again. It actually took less time to do than to describe.

You might see if you can get a sample of the mask material to experiment with on a board with your planned finish before you spend on a whole roll. The concept is great; but it didn't work out for me with this project. I should have tested a sample on scrap first - and saved myself the cost of a whole roll of mask and the lost time.

Thanks for the shop compliment. It's actually a 50' x 50' aircraft hanger - which makes it very much nicer in the summer than winter, since the 12'x45' door is pretty "leaky".

...Morris

[mikejohn]

I wonder if you could first cut through the mask with a V-bit (pointed end about 60º), as a profile cut along the edges of the letters, just deep enough to cut through the mask?
I actually use sticky backed plastic, the sort of thing you cover shelves with, and rarely have a problem.
675mm wide @ $2 a metre.
I've done around 300 signs this way with some tiny bits of touching up on maybe 5% of them.
One thing I have found is the base coat needs to be really dry before sticking down the plastic.
My method is the same as has been described on the Forum before.
.................Mike

[mrdovey]

Mike...

I thought about making a 0.005" deep outline cut (after cutting both panels, of course) - and I like your idea of making that cut with a V-bit even better.

When I get a chance, I'll pick up some shelf wrap and try that out, too.

In any case, the panels are cut and painted - and the customer stopped in and voiced approval. Not only that, I won't ever have to cut a first sign again :-)

...Morris

[mikejohn]

Morris
My signs are nothing like that big!
I thought about the V-cut idea for another project I have in hand, where it would be useful to be able to cover certain areas whilst painting others in different colours.
If I try the method I will report back.
.................Mike

[stickman]

Morris,

what paint mask were you using? What steps did you go through to prep the surface you were apply in the mask to?

I like the simple lines of the sign, how are you installing the sign?

Nice work Morris. Done any more with the dovetail project?

[mrdovey]

Mike...

Bigger doesn't mean more difficult - just heavier.

Jay...

It's the mask with which the thread originated. I'm not ready to blame it on the mask. I'm beginning to think that there were a number of contributing factors:

[1] I applied the final coat of paint with a roller, which left a slightly pebbled texture. I think the film should have conformed to the surface, but strongly suspect that I created a less-than-ideal surface for bonding.

[2] My outline cut was made with a 1/8" ball end mill at a depth of 7/32" - and which packed the kerf with dust. The combination of up-spiral and kerf-packing may been too much for the adhesive at the cut edge. I think that as soon as there was even the slightest amount of lifting, the mask was doomed.

The surface received two coats of Zinser primer (both sanded with 220 grit Al2O3) and two coats of Dutch Boy DuraWeather latex paint (the first coat was sanded as above). All primer and paint coats were left to dry overnight. The surface was wiped with a barely damp towel about a half hour before applying the mask. BTW, none of the paint lifted when I removed the mask, so I think the paint was sufficiently cured.

Glad you like it - the design and the colors were customer-specified (although the original letter color was a horrible fuchsia).

There will be 1.5"x1.5"x1/8" 12'-long aluminum angles glued and screwed lengthwise 5" from the top and bottom of both panels. I've cut 9" pieces of 2x6 that'll be bolted to existing posts; and the aluminum angles will sit on (and be screwed to) the ends of the 2x6 cross pieces. Top and end caps wil be rebated and glued in place with Titebond III. The only part I'm even a little concerned about is the attachment of the aluminum angle to the panels because I've never done anything quite like this before. I think it'll take longer to dismantle the old sign than to install the new.

The dovetail project hasn't gotten much attention of late. There hasn't been much interest from outside my own shop - so I haven't really spent a lot of time on it. It's been redesigned twice since I took photos (to improve clamping and to incorporate an adjustable vertical fence for positioning workpieces).

Tomorrow I attach the angle to the panels and go demolish the old sign.

...Morris

[rookie432]

A note about the mask. I too had the same problem with the mask adhering to my substrate. 3 coats primer 3 coats paint then mask. I had a smooth finish. Now I will have to say that in the areas that the mask worked that it cut very crisp and I was impressed, but the lack of adhesion in certain areas of my 4'x6' sign created a few bubbles. Even after squigee several times, the same bubbles appeared. If the cutter found its way to that bubble then I would get blow out. I had a discussion about this with John Murphy of Allstar Adhesives at the Midwest Camp and we did a demo and he agreed there wasn't enough adhesion. He was going to go back to the MFR to see if we could get a slightly higher tack. I will say that John was recognizeably concerned about the problem and I felt confident that he was serious about finding a solution for us.
I would also say that I would currently continue to use the mask only because even if I have a couple of blowout areas I can still go back and just touchup those areas instead of having to handpaint my whole sign.

Just my 2 cents

[phil_o]

Dale,
I sent an e-mail to all star adhesives - using the address from above - over a week ago. I was inquiring about purchasing the 10 yard length. I never got a response.

[kerrazy]

Phil,
Give them a call directly at the toll free # listed above.
Cheers,
Dale

[stickman]

Phil,

You've got to give them a call, I had the same problem. Just give them a call.

I just got done with my first paint mask project. It is not a small project, the sign measures 36" tall and 30" in width. The blank was painted first, then coated with a clear topcoat. I then applied the paint mask, rollered it. I then cut it out. I used an 1/8" downcut on the spots. I used a 60 degree v-bit for the trace around the legs and the lettering. I should have used the v-bit on the whole project, to give me a clean cut on all of the mask.

However, after I cut the project out I, painted the recessed areas. At the helment location and the collar location I removed the paint mask in order to paint the red. I painted the edges white.

After I finished painting, I hung the sign and applied four coats with Spar Urethane.

I was really impressed with the ease of use, the results that I got. I did however have a couple spots that were forced up and sawdust was driven under the space. I cleaned these areas up the best that I could. I did have some areas where the thickness of paint mask had left a paint ledge.

Would this have been taken care of with a little sanding from an orbital sander?


5715

I've got another sign coming up and I look forward to using the paint mask more.

[kaaboom_99]

Hi Guys. Dale, I am new to this masking idea of parts to paint them. I went to the site you listed and I can't seem to find what I have come to understand what is called by other manufacturer's as "overspray mask". Which product at AllStar Adhesives would I use as overspray mask?
Thanks Dale.
PS. Are you ready for another cold wet winter??

[kerrazy]

Hey Perry,
It is so hot in the city right now, with Spezza, Alfredson and heatley heating things up in the city, that they are not even forcasting snow this year....

Give allstar a call directly, as they do not have it listed on their site.
Dale

[kaaboom_99]

Thanks Dale. I will have my secretary (read 'wife') call next week for more info.