Sandblasted Signs

[csbrads@comcast.net]

Is anyone out there sand blasting signs? If so I would love to get some tips that could possible help speed things up for me. For example, are you putting the finish coat of paint on the letters prior to adding the sand blast resist. Are you leaving the stencil on while you paint the background after blast? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Carroll

[BILL JARVIS]

Hi Carroll,

I've been sandblasting signs for a while and there are several ways to accomplish the same task. Standard procedure is to pre-paintthe sign blank then add resist, next blast, then paint backround, peel resist, then clearcoat. The trick is to use the right materials. You dont want to use a blast resist with a heavy adhesive otherwise you will be pulling up paint when you peel the resist. An excellent source of info is www.letterheads.com. This is a conglomerate of sign makers very much like the shopbot folks. They are always happy to help. Give it a look

Bill

[csbrads@comcast.net]

Bill,

Thanks for the advice. I will take a look at their website.

Carroll

[singleton.signs@verizon.net]

Can some one help me? I have 2 questions, 1, I know a sign shop that is able to paint the face of a HUD sign board, have it sand blasted, paint the background and peel off the masking material and his sign is complete. The text looks great due to the paint on the lettering is only on the face of the letter and not on the sides. Which is what you get if you paint the letters last. Can any one tell how to do that and what material to use. I tried it with Hartco blast media but when pulling up the material it removed the paint and some of the HUD material.
Question 2, What is it that enables a CNC router to V grove text. That is cutting the text in the middle of the font with a 60 degree bit. The bit will ramp in and out of the letter and customer of today are requesting that style of routed lettering. Is it the CAD program or the CAM program? They tell me the ArtCam program will do it but I do not have 7,000 dollors to spend on a program. If anyone has any help please let me know.
Thanks in advance.
Tim Lage
singleton.signs@verizon.net (mailto:singleton.signs@verizon.net)

[rookie432]

Tim,

Regarding your question concerning painted sandblast media, I think your blast mask may be heavy adhesive. I believe blast mask has three levels of adhesive, light, medium, and heavy. You more likely to be interested in the medium range adhesives. Also one shot lettering enamel is the best paint to use before you apply blast mask. Make sure your paint is completely dry.
Also the type of v-carve lettering you are interested in isn't only available through artcam. The Vector supplier has V-fontz and V-Carvz for about $500.

[gerald_d]

"The Vector supplier has V-fontz and V-Carvz for about $500."

If you already have "Vector" (http://www.vectorcam.com/indexnew.htm) as your CAD software, then you need only Vfontz (http://www.vectorcam.com/vfontzt.html) at $200.

VCarvz (http://www.vectorcam.com/vcarvz.html) ($450) will produce dxf files for any CAD program.

[gerald_d]

Here (http://www.imsrv.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=14&post=156#POST156) is an announcement that the latest Vfontz will also produce dxf output for other CAD programs.

[RonV]

Humm Vfonts and Vcarvz and the new Raster program is a joke, It is made bt Vetor.
Ron V

[gerald_d]

RonV, why do you dis these programs? Have you any better?

[RonV]

Gerald they are not user friendly and you have more clean up to do, now Parts Wizard sounds like a good program but I do not have the time to learn it.

Ron V

[gerald_d]

RonV, you should not come here and declare programs "a joke". My son makes a perfectly good living income from them.

I take offence at the tone of some of your posts here last night.

[RonV]

Gerald my post are not meant to offend anyone, they are just my opinion, I had my machine for about 6 years and the only programs around to use was Turbocad and Coreldraw.
The only program that seemed to work well was Turbocad and I can do anything in 2d with it in minutes, now there are dozens of programs coming out for cnc machines.
I have tried all the demos just like the rest of the other shopbotters here and like Bill P said there is no holy grail in just 1 program.
I bought a shopbot because of what it can do and fit my needs, I look for the same in software too.
If a person is going to invest 6k in a machine I feel he would invest in a program as well if it will do the job it says it does, we all know the machine will do the job but there is still the question of what is the best program to use.
I am not saying I am the shopbot guru but I have not come across anything I cannot do with turbocad.
I have made guitar files and had them cut in 15 minutes with tool path and multilane passes and depths.
The shopbot software comes with a dxf converter and most shopbotters have no clue how to use it, they assume they need a program that will make the sbp file for them.
All one needs to do is in a cad program draw your file in colors and use the converter to set the depth and your done, cutting order is simple just 1 click of the mouse and and select send to front or back, we are talking minutes to do anything
I just hate to see someone buy a machine only to sell it a few months later because they think they need to use the program that came with it.
If they knew that all they needed was a $18 program and a few basic steps to learn they would not have sold there machine.
Like I said above my comments are my own and are not directed to anyone on this forum.
I am sure some of my post will be deleted because this is not an open forum and most questions are asked by email.
Ron V

[Geobre@aol.com]

Hey, Ron,
Can you explain the cut by color technique again.
People were talking about in NJ.
I understand the draw part. How are you setting the depth by color?

Is it a multiple set of files for each color?

Or is it alreay explained somewhere else on the forum.

Thank you

George

[RonV]

George first get Turbocad 6.5 or higher, you can get it on Ebay for $18.00
1.Now just use any of the line tools and draw you 3 lines
2. Select any line and give it a color and do the same for the other line.
3. Lets say you have a BLACK, BLUE AND RED line.
4. Save the file as a dxf and in a folder where you will be able to find it.
5. Open your sb200 folder and you will see the UX_DXF.EXE, right click it and sent it to your desktop as a shortcut.
5.Now just open the folder where you saved the dxf file with the 3 lines and right click on the file and choose copy.
6. Go to your desktop and right click on the UX_DXF.EXE and chose paste, this will bring you the converter.
You will hit 2 on your keyboard because it is a 2d file.
You will then enter the height you want the router to raise when it moves between cuts, I use .25 this will raise it a ¼ inch above my material, Type in .25 and hit Enter.
You will new be asked to enter the depth for Color # 7, this is Black, you will just enter the depth you want it to cut for that color, so enter -.25 and hit Enter and this will cut all Black lines ¼ inch deep.
You will now be asked to enter a depth for color # 5, this is Red, enter the depth you want and hit enter.
Now another depth for #1 will come up, this is Red, enter your depth and hit enter.
MAKE SURE YOU USE THE – MINUS, if not it will raise up instead of cutting.
Now wait a minute and look at the Title Bar, it will say Finished, close the program and your sbp file will be right next to your dxf file in the folder.

Now lets say you have 3/4 inch wood and you want to cut out some letters and want it to cut 3 passes at ¼ inch per pass, just open your file and select all and change the color to Black and save as file1.dxf, now with the file still selected just change the color to Blue and save as file2.dxf, change the color to Red and save as file3.dxf.
Now just close our of the file and open file1.dxf, now under Insert on the tool bar select File and select file2 and hit ok, do the same for file3.
What you are doing is just placing the same file on top of one another with different colors, now just save as file.dxf and convert it.
You will hit 2, then enter .25 then Enter, now all you do is enter the depth, -.25 then enter, then -.50 then enter, then -.75 and enter.
Your file will now cut in three ¼ inch passes

Ron V

[tucker-52@charter.net]

I haven't posted on this forum in quite a while, because I haven't needed to. I bought a used Shopbot, PRT96, earlier this year. The first thing I did after that was to join Ron V's server, and that has been money well spent. I didn't have a clue, but now I do, because he has been an enormous help to me. I'm can do most anything with an $18.00 program (Turbocad) and if I am having any problems, he is always "Johnny on the Spot". He'll make the files for me, then send me movies on how he did it, and that's how I've learned. He's very patient with new guys like me. Not just with CNC, but with computers and programs in general. His training movies, with voice, are invaluable, especially when you need to start making dust and $ ASAP.
Fear not, new guys and girls. Buy your machine and join Ron's server. You'll spend a little in the short run, but you'll make a lot in the long one.
Mark T.

[gerald_d]

Firstly, apologies to Tim Lage who posed the question: "What is it that enables a CNC router to V grove text. That is cutting the text in the middle of the font with a 60 degree bit. The bit will ramp in and out of the letter . . . . .ArtCam program will do it but I do not have 7,000 dollors. . ." Sorry that you are now seeing some of the tension in the ShopBot community.

Bill Jarvis and I tried to give Tim the facts on alternatives to Artcam. Then RonV comes along and expresses a derogatory opinion about these programs, plus another from the same producer. What incentive has RonV got to make such a statement? Well, if one knows RonV long enough, and looks at the other posts (1 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/30/774.html?1035917794#POST7042),2 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/1038/1170.html?1035915030#POST7043),3 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/315/1112.html?1035946326#POST7044),4 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/1141.html?1035879607#POST7045),5 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/275.html?1035879749#POST7046),6 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/1201.html?1035925717#POST7047),7 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/1088.html?1035880165#POST7048),8 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/1197.html?1035913990#POST7049),9 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/26/1199.html?1035899878#POST7050),10 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/1194.html?1035880970#POST7051),11 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/31/384.html?1035881060#POST7052),12 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/26/1195.html?1035881264#POST7053)) he made late last night you can only come to the conclusion that he is touting for business again. ie. For the small fee of $120 you can "join his server" and Ron Varela (Giggalo) will teach you everything you need to know.

Well, two years ago I also paid the $120, and I did find him helpful for tracing the outlines of parts that I had to get out in a hurry. However, I found his server to be "a joke" (used in the same sense that he uses the term) There was very little information there that I could use and it was badly organised with continuous problems of password access. If you spend money with RonV, my opinion is that you must get the benefit of it by direct (e-mail/voice) interaction with him. Yes, he is very keen and willing to help. You must however be aware that he is prone to wild exaggeration, as he will admit (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/30/774.html?1035917794#POST7066) himself. LOL (So beware when the "Master" advertises that he will teach you to master a ShopBot in 48 hours . . . . )

But, to come back to Tim Lage's question at the beginning, RonV has so far contributed nothing that actually answers his question. And this illustrates my dilemna of working with RonV - TurboCad is NOT the answer to every question! Some of us have progressed beyond the simple 2D_make_colors_set_depths approach and it is not helpful to us to be dragged back there all the time.

RonV, Tim wants to make letters with a V-Cutter and he wants to have the bit ramp in and out of the letter. Please tell us how your TurboCad method will do this?

[bill.young]

Tim,

There are a handful of ways to do the kind of V-carving that you want. If you just want to make a few signs and aren't real particular about which font you use, the Typesetter routine that comes with the ShopBot software is pretty slick, easy to use, and free. Look in your SB200 folder and you'll find a file named typesetter.htm with instructions on using it.

I don't know much about the V-carvz and V-fonts programs for Vector, but I've heard some good things about them from several people. If you have a copy of VectorCAD/CAM then it's a very reasonable upgrade.

The next step up is a pretty big one unless to plan on doing a lot of signs or 3d carving...to one of the sign and 3d machining packages like ArtCAM or ProfileLab. They're pretty pricey but can do fancy things like the same v-carving technique on scrollwork or other kinds of graphics. If you do signs for a living it doesn't make sense to use anything less, in my opinion.

Now if you've got PLENTY of patience and time on your hands, you can do them manually in a CAD program but it's an incredible pain. Before I knew about any of these sign programs, a friend asked me to carve a Times New Roman letter "T" in a piece of wood. Should be simple, I thought...I'll be glad to do it!

I ended up having to explode the text to get just the outline and then manually filling it in with circles that were tangent to the two sides of the letter..I used about 300 circles and probably should have used 3000! The center point of the circles defines the toolpath, and the radius of the circle at that point is the depth (if you're using a 90 deg bit). So the last step was to take the center points and radius of each circle ( in order of course) and use them to manually write the ShopBot file in Notepad.

It looked good when it was done but it took me a full 8 hr day to do...not a very efficient way to do a real sign!

Good luck,
Bill

[tlempicke]

Hey Guys! Ease up a little. Its' only money!

Actually Part Wizard will do very nice letter carving and after a short period of re-adjusting your thinking is quite fast and easy. The unfortunate part about PW is the paranoid thinking on the part of Artcam. They have hobbled the program so that you can only make one or two changes in a letter before PW will tell you it can not cut it. Of course you never know this until you have spent some time getting it into shape so that PW will cut it in the first place.

Many of the letters in the ten fonts that PW will V Carve for you are likely to have overlapping lines or gaps in the vectors. As a for instance, my copy of Arial Black has an overlap in the lower case "O". This can be fixed with Fontographer, and I will make a permanent fix as soon as I get the time.

Setting cut depths and cutting order are a snap. I have taken to drawing most parts in another CAD program and then importing it into PW to make the cutting files. You will find that PW is really intended for sign making and not well suited for mechanical drawing.

I hope that responds a bit better to the initial question. And, oh by the way, I am not a member of Rons site and still he has provided great help to me in the past. Thanks Ron.

[srwtlc]

Tim,

I did some testing a few months ago of some programs that did v-carving (letters and shapes). My budget is limited, the ones like ArtCam, Profile Lab, MasterCam, etc. are out of the question, so I tried Vcarvz and Rams 3d ($500 and $1000). I was very impressed with Rams 3d in that it would take any .dxf I threw at it without complaint where Vcarvz would need to have the .dxf cleaned up in Vector over and over again before it would apply a proper toolpath. Also, Rams 3d would make a much smoother running file where Vcarvz would have so many extra curricular moves (setting the filter factor may or may not help). When I say extra curricular moves, I mean that it would take a clean file and cause the tool to make a wild plunge sometimes and jerky corners with many unecessary small back and forth moves that make the machine vibrate excessively. When given a simple square corner outline (two rectangles 1/4" apart), it couldn't do it. (The later example can easily done in Vector or TurboCad manually though.) Rams 3d would take the original untouched .dxf and do it flawlessly. I liked the fact that Vcarvz works well with Vector, but it needs some toolpath and interface refining in my opinion before I would purchase it. Rams 3d does have its quirks too (mostly interface to me), but it does a no nonsense v-carve path. This is not a dissing of Vcarvz, but just my findings. By the way, I haven't purchased Rams 3d either. To busy with other stuff. ;-)

Scott

[gerald_d]

Bill, thanks for reminding us of the FREE Typesetter utility that is already built into ShopBot!


Scott, I fully agree with your experience of Rams versus Vcarvz. The surplus moves in VCarvz can be a pain for simple geometric figures, but there seem to be very few surplus moves when dealing with True-Type fonts. We tested Rams on geometric figures, but our trial period ran out before we could test it on TT fonts. We have never yet found a TT font that VCarvz has a problem to cut. Plus the "surplus" cutting of VCarvz often is a nice clean-up cut.

[gkling]

I have been using RAMS 3D for two years, and two upgrades, now. I have had no problem carving vcarved fonts. RAMS accepts either dxf or eps files, personally I have had the best luck with the eps files which I generally export from Corel Draw. A passing note, RAMS recently changed hands and the new owner seems quite helpful.

[RonV]

Gerald I was not going to reply to your comment but since you said I do not answer my questions I will be more clear.
How long do you think it would take to learn
1. How to start the shopbot software
2. Learn to set the speeds
3. How to convert a file
4. Load a file to cut
I am going to say less then an hour
Now how long would it take to master anything 2D?
And use an $18.00 program
1. Learn the 6 tools
2. Learn the offsets
3. Learn to use colors.
I will say 24 hours, that is 8 hours per step but in reality it will be on how good your memory is.
Now were talking about anything 2d or 2 1/2d
Now for 3d, I never posted much about 3d but here are the facts
Artcam? Cost is out of reach for most users
Model Mill? Again high cost
Profilelab? Still high
Mill Wizard? Better learn to draw 3d
Bobcad? Have no clue and not many post on it
Rhino? Again need to learn to draw 3d and have Millwizard.
Vector? Real long learning curve and Vfonts and Vcarvz you need to know how to use Vector and there is a lot of clean up involved.
Rams? I know 4 that have it and 3 say it crashes and do not want to spend any more for the upgrades, they do say it does nice chip carving if it don’t crash, could it be there computer or the software.
David Ford sold out and a new company has it, maybe they have it fixed now?
Parts Wizard? Will have to wait and see if the bugs get fixed but looks like this might be the best bet.
Any 3d work is going to take time to cut.
I tell everyone that calls me the same old story, they buy a shopbot and want to know what they need to get started making dust, I tell them Turbocad, Why? Because no one has the answer on what is better right now, we know what program are out there and we know the cost, but what is the cost going to be to learn them and how long is it going to take?
Now take a good look at all the shopbotters that did not get Vector or Parts Wizard with their machine, which 1 should we buy after reading about all the problems they have and hearing about the long learning curve.
Want to do 3d work? Pick a program and learn it, the best bet for the money is to find someone that is doing 3d on their machine and ask what he or she is doing and see if they will make you a cd or post all the steps on how to do different things, This is what I do and for only $150.00, compare this to what is out there in classes and see who is making the money, I spend a lot of time doing my work and the rest is helping others calls or emails.
I know a shopbotter that masters Coreldraw and he is thinking of making movies on cd and selling them for a small fee, you can bet I will buy 1 if he does, I have Verision 8 and would like to use it for the neat things it can do with text and pictures.
If I was in it for the money I would be charging a lot more then the $150.00, and what do you get for it? Ask how to do something and see if you do not have the files and a movie on how to do it, we come a long way in the 2 years since you been on and I still have all your emails saying thanks for the help, it is not my fault you stopped asking questions and is it my fault that there are still people that buy a machine and can not afford to take classes and travel long distances to go to a Camp or afford to buy the high dollar programs, I just provide a place for them to go and get started and keep in mind that that my site was FREE for 3 years and it did cost me to keep it up, so you know why I charge a fee now, it help with the return calls and cds and everything else in helping them get started, so please do not say I am in it for the money and I need more people getting on, I do well in my cabinet business and I have some time to help others.
The best advice I could give is if you buy a machine pick a program that is easy to use to get started and then think about what program to invest money into and select the right program that will fit your needs and pay for classes on it.
Remember you put out 6k for your machine what is a few more $k going to hurt to learn it right.
This will be my last post on this forum since it looks like I do not know what I am talking about

[gerald_d]

RonV, fare thee well.

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Well said, Ron, my friend, mentor and helper. What some of you may have forgotten is that we are supposed to be a "Band of Brothers" (and sisters)...out to help each other the best we can. I'm not trying to sell Ron's services on this forum. Nothing there for me. No kick backs...lol. And Gerald, you're right in one respect...Turbocad can't do EVERYTHING...but it can take you a long way and get you comfortable and confident. I am by no means a "Master" of CNC. Not by a long shot. But I did not have a clue when I bought my machine 4 months ago. Now I do. I'm making dust and money, and there is no way I could have progressed as far as I have as soon as I did without Ron's help. Instant help, always. Problem? No problem.
I personally think that Ron should keep posting here, 'cause his knowledge and experience is there. Remember...we are out to help each other. No one has ALL the answers. We need each other to GET all the answers and solutions. And that's what this forum is about, is it not?

Mark T.

[gerald_d]

"I personally think that Ron should keep posting here, 'cause his knowledge and experience is there. Remember...we are out to help each other. No one has ALL the answers. We need each other to GET all the answers and solutions. And that's what this forum is about, is it not?"

Mark, I agree with you 100%. Particularly the part "No one has ALL the answers".

I have a huge problem if someone does present himself as having ALL the answers, then charges money for a life-plan, and then you learn that he only has the beginner's course. But, further than that, when I (or Tim) do want to venture into somebody else's advanced courses, we get told that we are taking part in "a joke".

As you say "We need each other to GET all the answers and solutions. And that's what this forum is about, is it not?". RonV's 12 posts were not giving answers and solutions - in fact, he was trying to draw people away from this forum to get their answers privately from him (for a fee). And that is quite the opposite of what you and I believe this forum is about.

[valensign]

Tim.
Sorry for the late reply been goofing off for awhile
I have been in the sign Buisness for over 10 years and Im not going to claim to know it all. I learn new things every day.
Your HDU problem sounds like your primer is not biting well and your mask has two much adhesive. Hartco sells diferent grades real tacky for work on stone and other uneven surfaces(this sounds like what you bought)and some less aggresive material is what you need. Its best to use a real heavy body primer.. I like using J COOKES primer. It dries hard and sands nice after a day and the you can coat it with 1-Shot. Make sure you let the Paint dry real well before you put the mask on. One problem people do is try to put the mask on to soon and this will cause the paint to lift. They paint will be dry to the touch but it is still curing and the mask traps the fumes and resoftens the paint. Heres a link to a good deal on a HDU starter kit.http://www.arrsys.com/sales/precisionboard.htm
As for your V cutting question.. There is no simple answer. I have been reading the posts and the are all helpful. I researched alot of programs before I settled on Artcam and Signlab/Engravelab. I have been using Signlab since i got started in this buisness so I am very partial to it.. I love it for design work the I export it to Artcam for my router work. The downside it will set you back about $10,000 for the both of them. If you want to send me a file of
what your doing I'll create you file and send it back and you can see how well Artcam writes cut files.I can do this now cause im in my slow season and Im just dinking around right now.
If intrested Email me.