Pricing sign work

[drodda]

I am donating a sign to a local Library. I was wanting to know how to price a sign to get fair market value so that I can get a value of my donation for tax purposes. The Library is owned by a charitable trust.

Is their a standard pricing that people use or is it dependent on how complex the sign is? Since this is my first sign I have done I am not really sure of how to describe the sign I am doing. The sign is 93" x 36" tall and it has v-carved letters along with raised letters insert into pockets similar to signs I have seen done By Joe Crumley on here. The sign will be a monument sign attached to two posts and single sided.

Mr. Crumley has been helping me on this off forum but I thought I would try and get a sense for pricing from the community.


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[joewino]

Just as a starting point - we normally charge about $100 a square foot for plain, dimensional signs and go up from there. They probably average about $110 to $130 a square foot depending on the complexity of the design, gold leaf, or prismatic lettering.

We use outide measurements and go from there. That price does not include installation.

Durable, well designed signage should have some instrinsic value over just what labor and material cost.

Before we purchased our ShopBot I had a pretty good idea of what it cost us to produce a sandblasted, dimensional sign. The ShopBot allows us to do more detailed work and do it more effeciently, but we did not reduce our prices because it took less time.

You didn't ask for any design critique, but my eye is drawn to the negative space in the middle of the layout. I think I would put some type of scroll work there - very low key.

[drodda]

Raymond,

Thanks that is exactly what I was looking for on pricing.

Any design critique is very welcome, however remember you are talking to a rookie here. We are giving this away so I am trying to make it easy to build and finish for my first sign. With that said it will also be the first example of our work here in my small town so we want it to dazzle also. Kind of caught between going all out and going as simple as possible since we are not in the sign business. We are still very much busy with our main business of custom furniture. So we are not looking to make sales to pay the mortgage.

We are looking at doing a texture to the background also. I will look into your suggestion of scroll work.

Suggestions on material used for this sign in Iowa weather and finishing would also be very welcome. What is the best budget minded material to use and what is the cost is no object materials to use?

[wayne_webb]

Ray,
That $100/sq.ft. is for a one sided sign, right?

[joewino]

Correct Wayne.

I would use HDU (15# or higher) and back it with DiBond or aluminum. Paint with 100% acrylic latex.

Since it is a donation you might as well pull out all the stops and do a fantastic job. Better to be remembered for outstanding work than mediocre.

[wayne_webb]

Thanks Ray,

Dave, just a suggestion.....
You might try 'kerning' the main copy a little closer. This will make it read much better and will allow them to be sized slightly larger. Also, I would shorten that bottom panel so that it doesn;t extend wider than the main copy. And like Ray says, some scroll work in the center would help.

[drodda]

I would like to make it as nice as possible without ending up looking like Joe Crumley with only one sign under my belt. Not many people know that Joe is acutally 25 years young. The stress of the sign business has gotten to him and aged him prematurely.

Here is another sample critique wanted.

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I placed broken lines to simulate text on the pages of the book.

[drodda]

When I change the kerning on the main text the bottom of the H_A_D tends to run together and it does not leave enough room to get a tool through there and paint on the edges of those letters. As I am new to this maybe it is supposed to run together at the bottom on a curve?

[khaos]

What about

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[drodda]

Where would I find HDU in the midwest?

[sandmandave]

Often lettering with serifs are connected to help with the kerning. You are better off having connected serifs than too much space between the letters.

Midwest Sign & Screen Printing in Franklin WI carries SignFoam. Google High Density Urethane and you'll find several suppliers. The two biggest players, SignFoam and Precision Board will give you distributor names near you. If you're near Texas, Duna Board is nice stuff.

One last comment. As far as tax benefits, the last time I talked to my accountant about this type of scenario, he told me you can only take a tax deduction on the actual material cost. You don't get to deduct the actual value of the sign.

[drodda]

I have an appointment with my accountant next week to do last years taxes so I will ask him about this. However I am not donating a sheet of HDU I am donating a sign so I can't see how their is absolutely no tax value to my labor.

I am not doing this just for the write off, The library is in dire need of a new sign and I feel this would be a good reason to jump into this and try something different on the Bot. The challenge of the new project is really driving this sign. The Library is a small one in our town of 1200 people also so it will save them from spending on a new sign.

Thanks for all the help, I will have a new sample for review with your suggestions about the Kerning and other things.

-D

[jhicks]

Hey Dave I'm sorry to say that your accountant will likely tell you that if you donate the purchased material you can take a deduction, donated labor? NOT! So it depends on how you detail your costs I guess.
In any case, if you want to avoid the expense of HDU, you'll need to consider the very best paint and sealing on material like Medex, or even Extira but it is a lot cheaper and I think a much better finish. We almost always use medex with a polyurethane seal and poly paint finish and I've had large and small medex signs out for years in chicago weather with not a single failure.
On the other hand, I started with acrylic latexes and found the finish and durability was less than satisfactory for my taste. In the end its a matter of whats available near you but lots of guys swear by one shot and here we can buy it in the local art store.
IF you do use wood composites like mdf, extira, or medex, you definately need to seal with epoxy or poly before color coats.
The wood method is also pretty easy if you join up some nice poplar blanks but again its all about weatherproof prime and paint sealing.
Technically you can make it out of cardboard if you coat and seal it well enough.

[drodda]

Thanks for the comments, still not sure on materials to make sign out of but will look into the many suggestions on here.

Like I said the tax write off is not really the motivation. Where is the bailout money for the sign makers?

Here is an adjusted layout.


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[joe]

Dave,

I'm affraid Jerry is correct. You are donatating a sheet of HDU and other materials. Your trouble and labor isn't deductable. I agree with you it seems like it should be considered as a completed product, Sign but my experience with IRS is the materials only.

Good looking project.

[drodda]

Man that really sucks that I had to use $3000.00 worth of glue on that sign? JK

Actually I should have not mentioned the tax thing as it seems to get the most attention on this thread. Delivering a sign that the forum can be proud of and myself is the main reason for asking for help. Not the tax thing. The reason for the price questions was in case someone sees the donated sign and wants to pay for one then I won't have a blank look on my face when they say "How Much"

Who knows when I get done with this one I might not ever want to do another.

[beacon14]

To my untrained eye the book is the wrong shape for the space, it's causing you to have to squeeze the main text up above it. I think a simple decorative scroll with a horizontal layout (or even just a straight line) would fit the space better, and probably be easier to machine and make look good than the book.

[kevin_morin]

Dave, as long as you're still taking remarks on the sign you've posted I guess I'll add a few cents too.

I'd tend to thin the top arc boarder and thicken the bottom one so the two brown lines are not the same width, this will tend to make the bottom 'weigh' more when you see it.

You may look at making the two smaller radius curves at the bottom larger radius, and the tops one smaller- maybe reverse the two radii position?

If you added a 3D book image, open, laying flat but inclined to the front plane, and diminishing in perspective 'into' the sign under the name, then that would move from the 'flat' approach to one that more fully shows your SBot's stuff.

If I were still sketching I'd also reduce the end curves of the library board sign ends. These are often drawn with just a little less full curves outward, the line is still formalized by the Ogee curve but by reducing the amount of that curvature you'd have the same effect without drawing the eye to just one feature.

Have you looked at the very outer most edges angle points as another set of curves, echoing the top's arch? I think that curves there might be more in keeping with that nice camber on the top?

I'd be happy to sketch a book for the center if you don't have something handy to put in there for a look to see how it effects your design.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin

[CajunCNC]

The only way to recoup the value of your labor for the purpose of a tax donation is to do as many artist do. Sell it to a friend for the highest price you can justify. He turns around and donates it. He then sells you a piece of his work @ a high price and you donate it also. It takes two craftspeople/artist working together to get a tax deduction for labor in this case.

[drodda]

Kevin,

Thanks for the comments on the sign, I'm not sure I speak "Sign" language though. I am looking at going away from the book on the sign and perhaps going to a scroll work of some kind but I appreciate your offer.

I realize that the capabilities of the Bot at sign making far exceeds my abilities at sign making. I have no dreams of knocking Joe Crumley from the top of the world of sign making any time soon.

With that said I appreciate everyone jumping in to offer advice, The only thing I caution about is that you are speaking to a two year old "Me", you might need to dumb down your comments for my comprehension? If you know what I mean? I appreciate the advice, just don't know that I understand all the comments so far?

[jhicks]

Hey Dave, I truly understand your comments and admit I am no graphic artist but struggel through.
On the other hand, i remember your Post about finding labor so maybe what could help is a local student to work on a contract basis on artitic design. Nobody can do it all.
On the other hand, the more you do, the better you get and signs are a lot fun for the creative side of the brain.
You're doing fine. Just keep trying, asking, and doing.

[wayne_webb]

On the tax deduction.
Is the completed sign considered a 'service and labor", or is it considered 'property' with a 'fair market value'?

Scenario #1 You worked 30 hrs for an employer, took the money from that 30 hrs, purchased a sign (property) with it, and gave it to the Library.

Scenario #2 You worked 30 hours at your signshop, built the sign (which your business normally sells) and donated it.

[joe]

Dave & Jerry,

I'm just like you fellows when it comes to design and production. The only difference is I've been down in the trenches, grinding this stuff out, a lot longer.

Whe I was a young pup I coppied every thing Raymond did. I owe any success to him.

THOUGHTS'

When a new customer comes by with a vague description of what they might be interested for a sign, I'm most interested in the overall concept. But the one thing I don't consider, up front, is price.
Why? It makes no difference to me if it's a $100. sign are $1000 when my mind is churning through the possabilities. Once I have a good concept then I budget to get it in there. Sometimes you have to lop off materials, or time while working within the limits of the concept.

You can't get them all and it's necessary to turn some work away while making a friend. You can build a reputation that way.

I'm always amazed how easy it is to sell up a sign when the customer identifies with what your doing. If it's a Cowboy Sign, make it look that way. Or A Church Sign, make people want to go there. When a concept is spot on, the letter styles are correct, and they know you have it, your chances of doing the job increases.

It's the concept first. Budget comes later.

[joewino]

"Whe I was a young pup I coppied every thing Raymond did. I owe any success to him"

Yea...and I haven't seen a dime yet!

But I can't take credit for Joe's spelling...or lack thereof.

[drodda]

Raymond,

What do you use to attach the aluminum to the HDU sign foam? What thickness of Aluminum are you refering to?

[joe]

Dave,

It's good to have you post on this process. Everyon reading will learn from your experience.

What's the library architecture look like?
Is the sign going to be 1.5" thick?
Since this is a large sign, what will the posts look like and how far off the ground will it set?

[cabnet636]

i donated a sign for a local yacht club (community type) never even got aroun to getting the irs form 8283, but any time some one ask about sign's i could say have you seen the new yacht club? this has led to many a job!

jim

[joewino]

Dave - we normally use Dibond (1/4") or .080 aluminum, depending on the size and installation method. For either, we scuff the surface and use West System Epoxy - coat both surfaces and then apply pressure with clamps and weights (usually gallon paint cans).

We used to use MDO but had some problems with warping on the long, narrow signs due to the different expansion and contraction rates.

[drodda]

Here is the Library, I don't know what type af architecture this is?


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Here is the Existing sign we are replacing. The new sign will be installed in the same bushes that the old sign is in now. The sign will be 36" off the ground to allow visibility from the bushes. We were just planning on putting two posts behind the sign to hold the sign. This would allow us to not have to mess sith the existing concrete of the existing sign posts now.

5746

Once again thanks for the help, we want to come up with two entirely different looking designs to submit to the board for them to approve the one they want.

-D

[drodda]

5747

Another picture of just the sign

[joe]

Dave,

Thanks for going to the trouble of taking and posting the photo's. They're very helpful.

With this kind of setting, one has to be concerned about the sign being too strong visually. Have you thought of a little antiquing around the sides to make it more subtle ? Your choice of letter colors goes well with the new roof.

Your sign deserves a couple of substantial nice looking posts. As you know, I hate weeeeenee 4"X4" PT's

The "S" on Shadle is driving me crazy.

Thanks again for showing all of us your sign project from the begining. Everyone learns a bunch with this kind of exchange.

[jhicks]

Don't blame it on the S Joe. I think its due to years of paint fumes and saw dust :-)

[jerry_stanek]

The S seems to be just a little upside down. Have you thought about putting a sleeve over the existing post to match your new sign.

[jhicks]

Good Eye Jerry & Joe. Clearly the S on their existing sign was mounted upside down.

[dakers]

Back to pricing. these comments made ms so curious i bought a 2009 sign contractors pricing guide from www.bookstore.stmediagroup.com (http://www.bookstore.stmediagroup.com) to see how things are priced in there. a 2'' hand carved wood sign is at approx. $122. per sq. ft. We use Cyrious pricing software at the shop.
I bought the guide to try to get our sales staff to price more hand lettered signs but it is a good resource for a place to start but surely does not reflect burden rate pricing which is important. We are not in a position to donate signs like we used to do. I miss those days.