Sign Finishing?

[shawnn82]

Hello,
I am new to the sign business and am not to familiar with the different products out there. I jus finished designing a sign for a customer and from past experience all the clear coats I have used have been from spray cans. I cant seem to find one without a glossy finish. It needs to be weather resistant with little to no gloss as required by this customer. Any good suggestions as to what I could use or try?

Thanks much!

[dakers]

http://www.1shot.com/home.html

http://www.clearstarcorp.com/products.asp

http://www.superfrog.com/sunscreen.html

I would study these products and or call their tech support and let them know about your application.
what type paint you use, etc.

you want non yellowing for signs.
You just want to make sure your sign is very dry before you coat it and that the top coat is compatible so it will not lift or wrinkle.

[joewino]

My suggestion would be to not use any clear at all. In my opinion, clears speed up the failure process rather than slow it down.

Use a good, quality paint and that will outlast the clear.

That opinion comes from doing signs for 50 years.

[dakers]

Shawn,
I agree with Raymond
We only use a liquid clear on UV flatbed printing on hard substrates that need to hold up. We had one of those $200,000. UV flat bed printers and the color just did not hold up and did not like the look of the UV printing.

I Have never used clear on one shot enamel or acrylic latex top coat as i have the same opinion as Raymond.
We do alot of digital prints and use a 3m or oracal overlaminate on flat substrates. never tried the liquid laminate.

I think the clear coat on signs with straight enamel top coat just make it more difficult to repaint down the road too. The single component oil base exterior polyurethanes some use on redwood, cedar natural wood backgrounds do not work outside long term as they turn white and separate from the wood over time. Then if you apply them for inside use they turn yellowish over time.

I used to coat gold leaf on fire trucks with an automotive non yellowing clear but that seemed strange because the gold leaf would last longer than the clear. Did give some abrasion resistance i guess.

The last clear i used was about 3 years ago over about 100 UV flat bed printed signs 32x48'' i used Acrylic Poly UV plus from Progressive Epoxy Polymers , Inc. I put it on with a roller in the spray booth and it went on smooth, dried level and has made the UV print hold up very well.

However, Raymond is right when using standard enamels and latex finishes.
Sometimes people like Raymond remind me of all the things i forgot. I think it is because of too many paint fumes.

[rb99]

If you want to make your painted finish last longer outside, you can wax it with a really good automotive wax. Remember though, like a new paint job on a car you will have to wait 30 days or so before waxing...

RIB

[toych]

Richard, would the wax not have to be re-applied periodically?

Darren

[rb99]

Yes...

RIB

[shawnn82]

Hmmm I dont know if I am headed down the wrong path here but i have used acrylic paints from delta, americana and folk art for almost all my signs i have made thus far. Those seemed to be readily available at craft stores and not too costly as well. They are not weather resistant so hence the Non glosse - matte finish clear coat. Should i change my paints? If so, what would i recommend I start with? Weather resistant being the key!

[shawnn82]

This sign that I made has already been cut out and painted with acrylic paint. What would you suggest I do?
Thanks so much!

[dakers]

Acrylic paint is water based

Acrylic paints are water-based, meaning they are essentially water with concentrations of a certain color's pigment. As the water evaporates, the pigment adheres to the painting surface.


Some would recommend using Permalac
http://www.permalac.com/?gclid=CMLxh_iz1ZwCFSMeDQod1W_CJQ

I have seen a supergraphic painted on exterior brick with artists acrylic and clear coated. still looks good after 5 years. i was surprised and educated as i watched this art teacher do this with success disregarding all the wisdom of signpainters like me.
However, i prefer to use enamels for "sign decoration" because that is what i started with and am comfortable with. I know nothing about working with acrylic art paints.

[ghostcreek]

This thread is a good one. Exterior signs have me in a conflict. I have only been doing exterior sign for 3 years. I am torn between paint only and a clear top coat. A urethane top coat must be renewed or it looks bad. But in our scorching summers (May thru September), every paint I have used fades and/or chalks up after 2 years. The Clear top coat seems a good compromise. But i am always trying to learn more, and be better at what i offer.

[dakers]

Michael, yes it is hard to make a general recommendation because of different environmental/exposure factors/expectations/materials. What may work for me in Ohio may not work for someone in Hawaii. or close to salt water, heat, etc.

i guess first surface painted exterior signs have some limitations that we have to live with. Knowing the limitations and the products that can help us extend the limitations is useful. We do alot of subsurface lexan MR10 flat exterior panels for harsh conditions. I am not sure there is one answer for everyone. This forum is mostly about dimensional carved signs. I do alot of flat panels with one shot lettering enamel and digital printed graphics. We have used alot of Matthews two component spray paints with clear coat for sign foam signs. they seem to hold up the best for first surface deminsional hdu signs and the clear coat has some grafitti resistance. We have some that are over 10 years old with no signs of wear. but that depends on colors too.

Expectations:'
knowing customer expectations and educating the customer customer is important and a burden on us to learn what is out there to help us. I have been constantly studying this stuff since 1969 and things are changing all the time. I do not think i will know that much but will try to use what i find to be the best for the need and price and expectations. I like options but they require so much research. Example: what toothpaste do you use and why? You may say "i am making baking soda work but then you may miss the flouride then someone will tell you the flouride is poisen. so in the end you have to trust what you use based on experience or trust the advice you get but test it first.
technology rolls along.
the mineral paints are something i need to study. http://www.ericgrohemurals.com/
click on this to see Eric Grobe using mineral paints. it is amazing. i met him once. he wanted me to cut a masonite template on the router. he is just so humble about what he does.
check it out.
keep studying.

[ghostcreek]

Thanks Dick. You are correct about environments. all my customers want a wood sign. From there I choose paints and coating that have worked for me in my Woodworking business. But signs are new to me, so I keep looking (and lurking here) to learn more. I am happy all you folks share information. I make a sample with a new coating and hang it here to see any changes, but it is a time consuming process. I can't seem to duplicate a couple years worth of exposure in a short time, so i listen to others. One sign that has been hanging on my Ranch for 3 years, and has no degradation of the top coat, while a deck chair with the same top coat has started to peel after one year! Thanks again. Oh, by the way, I finished my truck sign! I'll try to post it soon. I used the K.I.S.S. principal!

[dakers]

Michael, discussing exterior wood signs only.
if i was looking for a 10 year paint that i could get in colors for wood backgrounds i would take a look at the nanotechnology paints being made today.
You can go to Home Depot and they should have them in stock there. I used some recently and it worked better than anything i have used yet in water base acrylic latex type of paint. The cost was $30. per gallon
Nano paints have the promise of going deeper into the wood and sealing things up to prevent moisture damage both from outside the wood and also moisture damage form moisture in the wood itself. Nano paints become more one with the wood. moisture inside the wood too. Nano pains penetrate to a level that other paints can't match. better fade resistance too.
you can google nano paints nad nanotechnology paints too.
something to consider if this type paint would provide the color, look, durability you are looking for,
The times they are a changin

[joewino]

Over the past 50 years of doing signs we have gone through a wide variety of paints. What worked 30 years ago will not sustain the wear and tear of Texas heat today, due to the regulatory changes that have been made in the paint.

Today, in our area, the best we have found is Porter 100% acrylic (water based) with no clear coat. It covers better and lasts longer than anything else we have used. It will fade over time but not as fast as other brands and it does not chalk nearly as quickly as other types.

In our area the problem is not moisture, but heat. Porter has been our solution for about 10 years now.

The only clears I would trust would be the two-part automotive clears, but they must go over the same type two part paints.

[andyb]

Raymond,
Do you spray any of the paint or do you just use brushes and rollers? I have a painter that only wants to use oil-based paint. He saids that they spray better and dry faster.

Andy B.

[joewino]

Andy - for large areas we spray with a HVLP spray gun with a large needle designed for thicker paints. On smaller stuff we just use a roller (3/8" nap) and/or brushes made for water based paints.

I'll agree with your painter that enamels do spray better but we are not set up to do any spraying (solvents) on a large scale. Also, they are toxic and messy. Acrylics clean up with water.

Unless he is using some two-part paint system, I would question whether the enamels would dry faster than acrylics.

Our main reason for using acrylics is that they last longer, along with being more user friendly.

[dakers]

5831
I just had to post this photo i mentioned above. all done with artists acrylics by art teacher. then clear coated. It faces east and looks the same today. i think it is about 5 to 8 years old.
i was surprised by the choice of paints.
He had never heard of signpaint like one shot.
but it worked for him. I just posted it because i thought he did a great job.