Sandblasted look

[toych]

I've been trying to get the sandblasted look in Sign Foam with the bot using Aspire. This is the first one I've cut and I think it's passable.

The problem I have is the same one I've read about here that others have encountered, it takes an awful long time to cut. This little guy took around two hours(9"x14"). Hard to justify the time for an address plaque.

I'll have to try it on a larger scale sometime.

( I know the kerning is messed up. I changed the font from a flat pocketed version of this sign and I didn't catch it until it was cutting).


Darren

5919

5920

[mmccue29]

that is my problem with the textured backgrounds. It does take a long time.

[dakers]

we burned up a 10hp spindle each year doing simulated backgrounds. I am not sure if it was because we did not allow the spindle to cool down or it was over use. Many times we let the router run overnight to do large backgrounds. As i recall we did not use the dust collector when we did that. Anyone else have this problem?

[rb99]

How many hours are the spindles rated for?

I bet the foam dust is hard on bearings.

RB

[joewino]

The time it takes for the ShopBot to do textured backgrounds has never been a problem to me. We are not a production shop that turns out 40 wigits a day but a custom dimensional studio. The ShopBot is not running all day, every day, so whatever it takes to get the job done is fine with me. I'm not using my time sitting there watching it do its thing - I'm off doing something else. If it takes 30 minutes or 8 hours it's all the same to me because I've sold the sign based on its worth to the customer, not ShopBot router time.

Of course, there's more electricity use and wear and tear on the spindle but that is little compared to the look I can get without having to use my hands.

[signtist]

I'm with Raymond on this one!
It does take a while to produce nice detailed panels, but I'm not doing it.....the machine just huuummms away in the back of the shop.
I just love it!
I don't have to buy and apply sandblast tape
I don't have to make a paper pattern.
I don't have to cut out the tape.
I don't have to get suited up to sandblast or
I don't have to drive to the sandblast shop.
I don't have to wait till Thursday afternoon
to pick it up.
Did I mention I love the machine!

[dakers]

I agree with Raymond. I do not like blasting if i have to do it myself.
We have spent about $10,000 on spindles burning up. It could be a problem related to something peculiar to our operation.
Like Raymond says and i agree. it is about volume of work which may determine equipment and methods used or desired. I did see a posting last month that made that combined routing with sandblasting that looked interesting to me. Router cuts the blast tape, rout down a bit of bkg then do a quick blast to texture. Maybe even using the grain frame. I liked that concept if you have a nice blast set up in place. Each shop is different for so many reasons. Financial backing being a big one. Sign shops can be like black holes for money spent to grow.

[magic]

My PC runs about a year and a half ( 650 hours) then I need to replace the contacts, that's it. I've had the same PC for 5 years.
The machine carves everything while I'm doing something else. Customers don't realize how little time a one-off shop, actually spins their bits so, because much of the time is taken doing other things i let the machine do the work.

On the other hand, I have two computers, side by side, used to design and/or cut pieces.

[dakers]

I can see why your name is magic.
the only magic i have is that money just vanishes.

[pro70z28]

Mind if I ask how much the aspire software runs. When I do a sign I just use a bull nose bit & cut straight lines. The dimensional background looks great.

[joe]

Two hours is a bargain, however there isn't any money, as a one up piece, no matter how you go about it.

Another concern is HDU. It's expensive, and unless you are using 20lb it's to deliclate and hard to paint. Even 15lb Duna isn't worth it. We made 44 of a simular type door signs for an apartment addition and charged $32.00@ (mailto:32.00@). By routing .75 PVC. we saved time and money.

I'm leaving HDU as a primary routing materials and moving back to PVC and good old wood. I love it for the detail it can render, but aside from that it's trouble.

The problem with HDU is:
Too Expensive
Too much time to prime and paint
Is not good with screws
Too deliclate
Easily broken in long pieces
Did I mention, TOO EXPENSIVE
Aside from that it's great!

My wood of choice now is vertical grain Yellow Pine. It's in abundance at Lowe's and Cheap. Someone's going to discover this wood yet.


5921

The attached sign for Highland Baptist Church is a good example of how not to use HDU. These panels were backed with 6" of EPS foam in order to get the necessary depth. As you can see, any flex will take it's tole on HDU. Had I used PVC or wood this wouldn't happen. It's a $6,500.00 mistake.

5922

The photo is showing the upper section of the sign. The lower part held together fairly well but to no avail.

[lstovall]

Joe,
That brings tears to my eyes, that is the one I helped you finish. It was a super nice sign too.

[joe]

Thanks Leon,

As you may remember, it was a stout sign with plenty of structure. It was 6" thick with a Drivit, concrete surface. We've just about get the replacement finished. It's a solid EPS sign which we had made for us. This ended up as a hotwire job with a Styrospray surface.

A few more Duna, HDU, signs like this and we'll go broke.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[dakers]

Joe, your post here is my favorite.
I think being open about projects that did not go as expected is important to help others. thanks. It also reminds me about the hundreds of things like this i have done. Things like build a sign so large i could not get it out the door. or fabricate it in the field upside down. or drive away from the job with the boom on the crane 30 ft in the air knocking down phone lines as i go.

[kivimagi]

Joe,

What do you do with the static built up on PVC? I never seem to be able to get it entirely clean, and static free, prior to painting. Therefore I get "junk" in my finish. Dust, Shavings, etc.

[wayne_webb]

Joe,
I don't understand. Is that sign 1.5" HDU? Was it one sided or two? Was it suspended between posts? Do you have a picture of it before the mishap?

[joe]

Wayne,

I'm sure I have a picture or two. I'll see if I can find them and post a little later.

This was a single sided sign which I built up with two layers of 2" EPS foam in the center in order to give it depth. The face was 1.5" HDU and the back was 3/4" MDO. Because I don't trust using different materials like this as it may seperate with time, I covered the sides with fiberglass cloth. Seemed bullet proof to me.

Once all that was put togheter I shot on a nice coat of Drivit. Even more bullet proof, right?

Ryan,

When I'm routing PVC, I use a strait flute bit. The chips stay in the grove. I know what you mean. If you use a upspiral bit it's a mess. No need for bridges or tabs with a strait bit. Any dust is neutralised with a little water. Here's a little trick for you. Fire up the propane tourch and pass it by your material. Static will dissapear.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[toych]

Here is another shot at the sandblasted look.

This one was fun to do, it's for a home bar/recroom.

Darren
5923

[pro70z28]

Nice looking sign.

[mmccue29]

where do you get the PVC.
How does the Yellow Pine hold up over time?

[joe]

Michael,

I like your website and all the good products.

There are so many good products we now have to work with, unlike a few years ago when the selection was limited. A signmaker should investigate know the limitation of each material. So it is with Ponderosa Pine. This wood isn't kiln dried and it takes more work to get ready.

Most folks on this forum don't have the equipment or knowledge to make it worth the time. So I'm very hesitant to give it a thumbs up for general use. You however, seem to have the equipment to pull it off. Since it's cheap, you might give it a try.

I get my PVC from the local sign supply house or plastics dealer. Brand names are Centra, Komatex, or Trovacel. I mostly use it for white letters. No need to paint.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[mmccue29]

Generaly with Centra we just cut out letters and glue them in place. Works great no painting and holds up.

I have not tryed the pine, usually we use red wood or ceader. I have cut pressure treated lumber and had good sucess with it. I will try the pine and let you know what I think.
Thank you.

[joe]

Michael,

Be sure to choose vertical grain. It's the most stable and better looking also.

I like to shop at Lowe's since I can easily peruse the board ends. Redwood is out of the picture and vertical grain cedar never has been an option.

Joe


5924

[curtiss]

What bit and speed do you like for lettering this vertical grain material?

I assume "Vertical grain" means the center of the tree is in the center of the board ?

[joe]

Curtis,

On the boards above you can see the core of the tree however that's not the ususal way method for vertical grain. When a tree of some size is feld, there will be several vertical grain boards without the core. These are call clear heart.

With Yellow Pine, which is extremely hard, I use a 1/8' down sprial to profile my letters. The usual depth is .40 and I make three passes. There is hardly any tearout.

Again, let me stress, although I'm very happy with this wood, you need to be set up to work with it. For example, when I do an area clearance around my letters, I immediately cleat the back. At this point, moisture is pouring out of the front and the panel can cup. Also, it's good to seal the ends to prevent splitting.

I only sandblast 1/8" deep. That's all it needs.

Please post your results.

Joe

[joewino]

Vertical grain means that when you look at the end of the board the lines (grain) run up and down - vertical.

Boards that were cut 90 degrees from those Joe has shown would have the lines running horizontal to the surface and would be called "horizontal grain". The center core really has no meaning to the two terms.

Vertical grain is better for sandblasting because the edges of the harder grain stick up and give the design some "character". The horizontal grain stays rather smooth when sandblasted.

It's just a matter of what look you want.

[bob_s]

If you are looking for this grain pattern at a commercial lumber yard or sawmill, ask for quartersawn wood. The growth rings run at approximately 90 degrees to the surface of the plank. The same is true of 'riftsawn', but the yield is so low you will rarely see it cut and sold that way

[joe]

There are two major problems when routing or sandblasting flat grain wood. The first is cupping. This happens because the natural tension within the board reveals itself when moisture is released. A good test; lay a stick of Fresh flat grain lumber on the ground for a day or two. The next morning you will probably see cupping and spliting

The second problem with flat grain is delaminating. It's much like an onion. We notice this most when sandblasting. Each layer peals away, layer after layer. Over time, it has a tendency to cup and delaminate and split.

Here are a few of my vertical grain test pieces. These been leaning up against the fence for about two months.

5925

Here's what's happening.


5926
So far, these vertical grain slabs, are weathering very well. The board on the top right is developing a little cupping. I check on them every few days.

Joe

[curtiss]

You need a sign on the back of the building that says, "Joe Crumley International Vertical Grain Research & Testing Facility"

[rb99]

So what is the problem with using Western Red Cedar Select kiln dry?

RB

[joe]

Ricard,

Nothing at all. It's a very good product and if I lived in Canada that's what I'd use.

Down here, in the Boon Docks, it's inconvenient and must be ship in and way too expensive. Although there are a couple of N. American vendors, I believe the closest is Colorado.

[gc3]

For some excellent info on lumber machining link this site, search the forums and archives...
www.woodweb.com (http://www.woodweb.com)

[joe]

Good source. Thanks Gene

[rb99]

Thanks Joe,

Have you ever used marine varnish? I got some for my boat oars and thought it might be good for this sign as well.

What kind of sandblast mask do you use? Is there a type that does not stick too aggressively?

I just ordered a 28" x 48" x 2" sign blank for $235 Canadian...or about $200. It will be glued and sanded. Is that fair? Years ago I used to get cedar that was from California.

Cheers,

RB

[joe]

Richard,

I've posted in some depth my tehcniques for sandblasting, masks, and general techniques. I'm glad to assist if you can't find the information you need but lets look back and same some posting time.

The cost of cedar seems a little high at $25.00 per square foot. That's about double the price of 20lb. HDU.

[terryjones]

I am enjoying this forum, very educational. I have not made any signs for hire yet, so my knowledge is limited, I have not heard anyone using the faux wood panels by Texture Plus.
http://www.textureplus.com/faux_panels/wood_wall_panels.aspx

It appears to be comparatively priced to HDU. I would guess one would just pocket out the slots for the letters (like inlaying). Then cut the letters and inset them into the faux wood panel, no extended milling time for the texture.

There are many other textures available.

I was wondering if anyone has had success using this product?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts,

Terry

[joe]

Terry,

Beautiful stuff. I've often looked at using it just as you descirbed.

How would you put a finish border on a shaped panel sign?

[terryjones]

Joe,
A couple of thoughts on a finish boarder is to inset the panel sign in expanded polystyrene boarder that is primed and painted with polyurethane paint.

Or maybe glue up sheet PVC like a picture frame, of course this could be milled on the Shopbot to the shape of the panel. The PVC would also be a ridgid support for the panel.

I am just guessing due to I have never done this before, but then almost everything I do in my shop, I haven't done before.

Terry
http://legacywoodworking.com/artist.cfm?artist=96

[joe]

Terry,

Your suggestion may work. Now: Someone give it a try.

I'm staying with wood, wood glue, and screws because I old and I'm stuck in my ways. Getting Grouchy Too.

You kids have my blessing to go for the plastic.

Joe