Archive through December 09, 2001

[badbrad82@juno.com]

I am not familar with vinyl signs, but I am interested. Are these the hard plastic signs that are made from laminating two different color plastics together. For example, you have a blue sign that contains white recessed lettering. These signs look like the lettering was engraved with a router. I am confused about the conversations concerning "knives".

[rgengrave@aol.com]

Brad vinyl is a thin film like paper, it comes in diffrent colors, you cut out the letters and apply them to your material, Glass, Wood, Metal and so on.

The knife is what cuts the vinyl.

What most are trying to do is attach this knife to the router to contorl the z depth of the knife, the router will not be turned on, then let the knife act like the router bit and the shopbot will cut the letters or pattern.

Just think of it as cutting paper with a razor blade. nice clean cuts.

The knife will have to be able to turn as it follows the letter, this is where you will want it to be able to swivel 360 degrees.

I do not have a vinyl machine at this time, but I am waiting for Greg to let me know how it is going on his design with a knife made for a shopbot.

Ron

[badbrad82@juno.com]

Has anyone used a Shopbot for engraving the stiff plastic laminated signs that I mentioned in my last message.

[rgengrave@aol.com]

I have cut many of them, I use a 45 degree bit and a ball-end bit.

Material, 1/4, 3/8 1/2, 3/4, there is not trick to it, you just need to set a speed so it will not burn or melt.

Ron

[odysseywood@home.com]

Brad, I have used the 1/16" thick laminated plastic sign material. Here is a photo of one of the projects that was made from this material. I used the shopbot with a 1/16" straight bit. The setup is simple and as Ron stated you will have to experiment with the speed.
http://www.members.home.net/hcrcm/0219e

Sam

[danhamm@abccom.bc.ca]

Brad, Sam is correct,its called engravable substrates,comes in 3 or 4 thickneses 1/32, 1/16,
thats the only ones I use, there is hundreds of color combo's and reverse engravables, I use the
laser for anything small, on the shopbot I have
and metal plate I put down the plastic I use double sided tape to hold it, and a 1/16 or 1/8
on larger signs,I use a very flat bottom bit the
carbite that sticks down on some bits cause a wiggly ridge in the plastic..
dan

[dandjassoc]

I PURCHASED SIGN TOOLS 3 FOR MY SHOPBOT DUE TO SOME BAD ADVISE I RECIEVED ELSEWHERE, TO USE ON WOOD. THIS SOFTWARE IS ONLY FOR CUTTING THIN FILM SIGNS. HAS ANY ONE USED IT ON WOOD??? IF NOT I WOULD SELL THE SOFTWARE UNREGISTERED, CARD IN CASE FOR $150

[jkforney@yahoo.com]

Dan
If your software will output a dxf, simply open it in Vector, edit cut, edit paste at whatever depth you want. Put the number of passes you want to get to that depth in as the number of copies. Draw-Other Curves- Connect at Z, Special Insert NC, Select the shopbot config file. Vector will open the Cam side. Macro Start-Generate NC code-Macro End. You now will have a sbp file to cut.

You can, however, sell the software if you like but sign software will make some text applications much easier. Call me if you are still having problems.


John Forney

[dandjassoc]

thanks for the reply, we will give it a shot.

package on it's way with two wood projects and one casting . wait for your reply.

[donchapman]

I use Letter Art 9 vinyl cutting sign making software and output dxf file directly to my ShopBot software where I convert to SBP file which runs just fine. For more info see my signs and description under ShopBots in use at the ShopBot home page.

[dandjassoc]

thanks Don. i looked and they were what i was looking for, my sign 3 did work, till i got to tool change and after zeroing new tool z-went deep. 3/4 deep oh well i will try again sat.
thanks again

[shuttle]

A glass cutter also works on vinyl.
It would need an offset to keep the wheel in line and a spring for the right pressure.

[Ted Hall, ShopBot]

Hi Tom,

We have had a number of people talk about doing this kind of vinyl cutting, but as far as I know, nobody who really got around to it.

There are drag knifes available (someone could chime in with some sources here) that should work to do the cutting. Then the question becomes coming up with a little software conversion that allows one to easily add-in the little arcs that need to be swung at the end of a line so that the drag cutter works right when it heads off in a new direction. 'Course there is existing software for this too that probably exports to g-code ...

This may be one we should consult Bruce Clark or Arthur Ross about ...

[eriep@map.com]

while it is true that you need to compensate for knife offset distance, my experience is the same as Bruce's, unless you are cutting small lettering, it really is superflous, as the error becoms so small at letter height over an inch. Signlab also allows you to manually compensate for the offset, you can tell it whether to let the cutter calculate the offset or the software to. Outputs G-code directly too, and with a little tweaking of the .ini files, will allow you to preface the code with damn near anything. Drag knives are easy to come by, less than $100 new for a roland knife. I am hoping to build a shopbot soon, and it will definately have 2 z axes, with one of them a knife holder.

[graphic.artwork]

I've made a working knife holder if anyone is interested. I can load my Roland PNC 1000 knife blade holder, or a plotter pen, and cut vinyl or signboard laminates on my PR 96 shopbot. It's still a little crude, but it does work well especially on large projects

[b1705@bellatlantic.net]

Kenny, I'd be curious to get the details on this adaptation. Do you have an e-mail address/website? Bill P.

[nobux@aol.com]

Hey guys...
Why re-invent the wheel?Most towns have a non-franchise vinyl sign kinda place that will cut vinyl letters forya on a wholesale basis.Or get to know a regular sign guy-maybe you can trade shopbot stuff for vinyl.Or...for small projects with small amounts of lettering (larger size and not too intricate)you can plot it in ink and cut it by hand with a swivel razor knife.This requires practice but its done on occasion.Or for big stuff cut it with scissors.

[arthur_ross]

Bob-

Is "test" a general comment on this thread?

Seriously, I think the big question with using a pen plotter to cut vinyl is the pen speed. Some of those plotters really move, because there is relatively little drag on the pen. Maybe a really sharp knife and thin vinyl would work, or messing with the plotter to slow it down (run it a 55 VAC instead of 110?). Actually, you might be able to change the crystal on the CPU to slow the beast down, but it might play hob with serial communication to the plotter - if you are using a parallel port you might get away with it. HPGL plot file format does have a pen speed command "VS n", where n is the speed, but not all plotters recognize the command.

Arthur Ross
Deltamation Inc.
www.signsontap.com

[john@pcjet.com]

Pictures and specs of the Swivel Knife application were released last year by J.E.T. Enterprises and can be found on the Shopbot FTP site. Needless to say, we have a vinyl cutter and didn't need the application.

John
"Chain Gang Boss"
J.E.T. Enterprises
john@pcjet.com (mailto:john@pcjet.com)

[john@pcjet.com]

I have gotten some requests for the location of the Shopbot FTP server; I am not sure where it is or what the address is....does anyone know? The last time I checked on the FTP those files/specs were there (a while ago). Unfortunately I do not have those files...the last place I had them was on the FTP server.

John
"Chain Gang Boss"
J.E.T. Enterprises
john@pcjet.com (mailto:john@pcjet.com)

[kenfox]

I called the "Glentek" number for info on the turn key lettering solution referenced on one of the shopbot idea pages. The number was disconnected. Does anyone have info on this or anyother lettering/signage software. I have seen some of you post the idea of exploding true type fonts in Turbo Cad. Is this the only way to get carved lettering? Any one with a lettering tutorial out there?

Ken Fox

[repalmore@rmci.net]

Don, for a veriable pressure or surface tracking the possibilities are varied. Don't know if this idea will work or because this hasn’t been tried. Use a short piece of ½” brass tube (available at hobby stores). A short piece of ½” o/d. stock. And a spring that has a O/D less than ½”, check the local hard ware store or automotive parts store. Use a spring that has space between the wires (room for compression) and is firm but not stiff. Cut the spring to about ¾”. Cut the round stock to about 1 ½”. Cut the brass tube long enough to overlap the round stock by ½”, the ¾” for the spring and then the proper length of the drag knife. Use a hack saw to cut four slots in the brass tube ¾” deep so when the tube is slipped over the round stock a hose clamp will clamp the brass tube tight. If you want to get fancy, drill and tap three holes 120 degrees apart on the round stock and use really small hardware to attach the brass tube. This done, slip the spring in to the brass tube. Insert the drag knife holder into the brass tube. The best thing that I can think of to keep the holder in the tube is a paper clip hose clamped (gently) to the tube. The end of the paper clip or stiff wire bent at a 90-degree angle so it goes under knife holder so it won’t drop out when pen up command is given. Like I said, don’t know if this will work but shouldn’t cost too much to try. Let me know if this works or you need some more details of what my scheming mind is up to. repalmore@rmci.net (mailto:repalmore@rmci.net)

[Bryce]

New, just trying to decide if this tool is for my woodworking buisness

[eriep@stewstras.net]

if anyone needs any blade holders, I have several used graphtec holder, about 10% of the offset of the roland blades. I'm using a couple in my roland cutter at this time. the only caveat is that they can't be chucked in the router easily, although the important part is only approx. 5/16 thick and the rest is a piece of inj. molded plastic....email me for more info.

erie

[birdsofplay]

Listen I've just got "yet another" freebee ...
a 14 yr old HP 7580B plotter.
It's a pen/carrosel type plotter and uses either
ball point, felt tip or ink pens ...

I was wondering if there were ever swivel knives that came in
PEN style bodies for use on a platter of this type.
These pen bodies are all special to this type of plotter.

Thanks

Bob

[birdsofplay]

test

[birdsofplay]

Art,
Test is what happens after the forum rejects a message this AM and I came back later to see if it was working yet.

As I recall this plotter had lots of speed and pressure settings bacause its was an old pen plotter and there were several grades of "wet" ink pens back then.

Realisticly I dont think it's gonna hack it.
I figure that if I ever "really" want to do vinyl I should do it on the SB and adapt a swivel knife.

I was just dreamin of "something for nuthin" ,
those dreams, as usual, come up a bit short :-(

thankx for thoughts anywayz :-)

[birdsofplay]

As I recall the ftp site was not sponsored by ShopBot but put up by an eager SB owner.

The site also had a username and password associated with it, and I guess we've all forgotten the address as well as the username and password.

John, Ron, and myself had posted some stuff, but, when issues of liability, copyright et al came up I think the site just fizzled.
I believe that the legal issues were the reason that SB never picked up on the idea.
Unfortunately it was a good idea for sharing files
amongst our selves but so few seem to be willing to share "hard earned" sbp files that even I had decided to "opt out" after a while myself.
I remember a post to the owner and he was kinda bummed by lack of participation as well. sigh ... :-(

I'm still willing to put up a few "non-advert" pix "on request" at my site. I've done this a couple of times, in the past, and the locations follow ...

http://www.birdsofplay.com/sbpix/famcrest.htm
http://www.birdsofplay.com/sbpix/sbpix.htm
http://www.birdsofplay.com/sbpix/sbpics.htm
http://www.birdsofplay.com/sbpix/sbmod.htm

[edcoleman]

Bob:

I've not seen a swivel knife for this unit but wouldn't be surprised if they're out there. A while ago, I did use one of these plotters with a sharp point bit (I believe it was diamond) instead of a pen. We got these from a mail order computer supply place that dealt with plotter accessories. Unfortunately I don't remember the supplier (sorry). I would guess that these are still available, you might be able to find them in computer accessory catalogs.

-Ed

[donchapman]

Bill P. & I have both tried contacting Kenny by email for details as to how he uses a Roland PNC-1000 knife to cut vinyl on his ShopBot. Our messages were returned undeliverable. If you're out there, Kenny, please email us the info or, even better, post it for all to see on the forum.
Thanks.

[donchapman]

Thanks for the description, Bruce. I had overlooked your simple and (now) obvious solution of using the router chuck to hold the vinyl cutting blade holder. I just need to break my habit of turning on the router! I measured the blade holder on my Roland PNC-900 and it is just under 1/2" except for the 5/8 diam. ridge that is 1/2" from the top, so it should fit firmly in my router chuck without having to be cut down on a lathe. My blade holder is an older type that doesn't have the adjustment control on top that is on the newer "standard blade holder" which GBC now sells for $75. The new adjustment control appears to be larger than the diam. of the holder itself, so it might not fit in a 1/2" chuck unless the adjustment control is cut down or removed. GBC also sells ball point and fiber tipped pens that should fit in a 1/2" chuck.
Someone earlier asked why anyone would bother trying to cut vinyl on a ShopBot when there are so many cheep sign shops out there. I want to cut vinyl and sandblast mask on the sign substate itself so that I know the layout is right and I don't have to do layout lines and manual transfer from the vinyl cutter to the substrate. That should save both time and the awful frustration of having to remove and replace vinyl or sandmask that I realize is slightly off line or off center only after it is stuck on. The ShopBot layout should be right on.

[donchapman]

I tried out the Roland blade holder in my 1/2" router collet yesterday and it cut vinyl-like paint frisket very well so long as the blade did not dig in too deeply. Unfortunately it doesn't take much variation in table level or material thickness variation to cause the cutter to cut too deep or too shallow, since the blade itself is very small. My Roland Camm-l PNC 900 vinyl cutter doesn't have that problem since the vinyl is rolled through on a platten and the blade pressure is adjustable. Does anyone have any great idea as to how to have a variable pressure way of using the blade cutter in a router collet of otherwise mounted to a ShopBot?

[tlempicke]

I am posting this to keep from re-inventing the wheel. I have no idea whether it is practical or not but-----

Has anyone tried to cut vinyl sign material with a shopBot? the sign industry uses a plotter like machine with a knife mounted on it to cut signs and letters. Is this a practical idea?

Tom Lempicke

[bruce_clark]

Tom,

Since Ted involved my name, I guess I have to
chime in. 8^)

I believe that John from JET once offered a drag
knife to cut vinyl. Don't know if he still does.

As for the software, 99% of the vinyl cutters out
there use HPGL language. I believe that there is
an HPGL converter for ShopBot. :)

Now, for the extra little "arc" to make the knife
swivel. It is not really an arc at all but a VERY
short line segment. This is usually 1/2 the
diameter of the swivel knife (at least it is on my
vinyl machine--Roland CAMM-1000A).

For actual software, my vinyl sign program
(FlexiLetter--but ALL of Amiable Technologies
products) allow for the program to manually adjust
the output to compensate for drag knife swivel. I
am sure that a lot of other "sign" programs will
also allow you to adjust for swivel also, but I
only have experience with FlexiLetter.

Lastly, this swivel really only matters when
you are cutting out small letters (under 3/4" or
so) because without the adjustment, you end up
with something like a 1mm (~1/32") radius where
two lines intersect at 90'. On large letters,
this is almost not even noticable, but on the
smaller letters, you will start to see it.

Bruce Clark

[bruce_clark]

Bob,

I know that the fiber point "pens" from HP fit in
my vinyl cutter (a Roland PNC-1000A) so I am sure
that the Roland swivel knife assemble would fit
in a HP plotter also. These are not too expensive
(unless you think about what you are getting) and
will run you about $50-$60 each. Most sign supply
places have these in stock. Just be sure to order
blades also (the holder does not include any).

The only thing I can think that might give you a
problem is how to set the "force" that the knife
uses to cut. On my Roland, there is a slider that
adjust from 30g to 210g. HP may have also put a
pressure/force adjustment on their plotter, but I
have no personal experience.

Bruce Clark
PS I buy most of my Roland supplies from Sign
Warehouse. Probably not the cheapest in the world
but they do stock just about everything made.
http://www.gbcsign.com

[bruce_clark]

Mr. Chapman,

I am not sure how Kenny does his, but on my
Roland 1000A cutter, the knife holder is made of
aluminum, so just chuck the "holder" end in a
lathe and turn it down to 1/2" diameter and then
put that in your router's chuck. The Roland
"silver bullet" (as they are called by Roland) has
a bearing sleeve that is really small and turning
the holder down will not affect performace.

If you do not have a vinyl machine, you can order
these from Greyson Business Supplies (I think that
is the name) in Denton Texas. While they are not
the cheapest, they stock just about everything.
Price is/was around $65 (when I had to buy a new
one). Oh yea, DON'T drop it with a cutting knife
in the "silver bullet". You may also need to
purchase a cutter blade, as I don't think these
are included.

Hope that helps....

Bruce Clark
bwclark@centurytel.net (mailto:bwclark@centurytel.net)

[robert]

ive just found an inexpensive program which does beautiful lettering, its totalcad 2d/3d, i picked it up at best buy for $17.00 on the sale table,
and on the 3d prog. it has "text as lines" and produces the most beautiful text (single line) with a v bit.it has only one font but there is a "change font" prompt which i havent figured out how to use yet. maybe one of the more computer savvy members could help

[giggalo]

I have a PLT 2 SBP

Ron