Rounding Over Letters

[joe]

Since I'm in the process of making roundover letters for a sign, I thought I'd post the process. These are Extira. My favorite letter material.

Let me first say there isn't a standard for the way these are made. Here I've started the process with a small 1/4" brad point roundover.
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As you can see there isn't much character. I made this cut z-.35. Now I'm going to switch over to a 3/4" round over and send her down z-.60

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I can't minus the Z any further since the smaller strokes are loosing height. Although the broad strokes aren't totally round, they are good enough.


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The over all strategy is to tell the software you're using a 1/4" bit. Load up your round over and carve away. When finished, put the 1/4"strait bit in and cut out the letters.

I wet these down to give you a sense of thick and thin strokes. The finish will be textured antique Sculpt Noveau Iron.

[myxpykalix]

Joe, just so i'm clear when picking the tool for the first pass you pick the 1/4" roundover, go down to-.35. Then you pick the 1/4" roundover, give it a depth of -.60 but you innsert the 3/4" roundover tool in the router right? thanks

[joe]

Jack,

Your are partially correct.

On this job I started with a 1/4" round over. It was too small. No matter how deep I set the Z it wasn't going to work.

Next I put in a 3/4" roundover with a Z-.60. Bingo that was what I wanted. I'm not lucky. I had been here before.

Last pass is a strait 1/4" bit to relieve the letters. This is .75" Extira.

The cutting time was about 25min. The total time which includes my tests was close to a three hours. There are 33 letters.

I haven't seem this technique used very much. I don't know why. It produces some neat effects.

Joe
www.normsignco.com (http://www.normsignco.com)

[myxpykalix]

"The over all strategy is to tell the software you're using a 1/4" bit"
That was the part that got me confused. So with the 3/4" roundover at -.60 toolpath you are picking the 3/4" roundover from your tool database right?

[joe]

Jack, No No No

You must learn to lie.

You only go to the tool library ONCE. Tell it you are using a 1/4" strait bit.

The software doesn't know anything about the roundover. Keep that a secret. You keep changing out bits to get the desired affect.

I know my explaination hasn't been very good. My writing skill a rather poor. But once you get on to it, you'll ve amazed how many effects are possible and how fast it can be.

Unfortunate some folks like Ray can't use these techniques because it requires lies and he's very religeous. It would be like sipping apple jack. Next thing it's whole hog whiskey.

I'll post photo's of the finished sign. It will take me about a week to get them finished up.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[myxpykalix]

You should have started out with "you must unlearn what you have learned". I am calling up 1/4" bit in the tool database but i am using the 3/4 bit. I'm not concerned about tool diameter or anything. I will get what i get as far as results are concerned but I need not be concerned about the tool diameter for purposes of this example.
Now see it only took 3 times to explain it till i got it. Thanks

[signtist]

Joe, I don't get it!
Does the 1/4" bit do anything at all? Maybe only in the tight inside corners? The 2 roundovers are "ON" the line, and the final cutout are "outside" the line - right?

www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

[dana_swift]

Joe- what software are you using to generate the rounded tool paths?

D

[billp]

Guys, it's really pretty simple; the software "reads" the CENTER of whatever bit you choose. YOU are telling the machine to follow your outline ( it could be with a 1/8"bit, or an 8'bit, same, same...).
The "art"of this is that you "lie"to your machine and make it "think" it's running a straight bit along the profile of your part, but in reality you can insert a plunge round over, ogee, etc. and you will get only the "profile" of whatever bit you are using !!!
Your machine doesn't know (or care) what profile you REALLY have, it's going to keep running around the profile "thinking" that it is cutting a simple outline...
YOUR role in all of this is to be sure you know what kind of edge you are looking for because the end result of this technique will not be visible in the "preview" screen...

[garyb]

The trick to this is you do the toolpath with the cutter you cut the letters out with, that way you only create the toolpath once but run it twice.
1st with round over 2nd with endmill in this case a 1/4"

Bit like standing 2 shovals against the wall and being told to take your "Pick" isn't it?

Can't wait til Joe's workshop!!!!!!!!

Dana, it doesn't matter what program you toolpath with as Bill pointed out your only machining along a vector but Joe uses ArtCam Pro 2008

[joe]

Wow,

Thanks everyone for all the posts.

I'm amazed at how difficult this process has been to grasp.

I recieved a nice note the other day from Pat Fulghum urging me to get on with a workshop. It seems as there is definately a need. So Pat, I'm reconsidering.

I'm may be offering an indepth workshop September. It will be very limited in size. Perhaps eight attendes for three days.

I'll post more details soon.

John,

Yes, the 1/4" stait bit is essential. It cuts out the letters after the roundover bit. Any program will work. This is a dead simple project.

I'll post a few more pix as we get a little closer to finished. This project is a Sculpt Nouveau. There are three identical signs approx 3'X7' which will go at the entrance of a housing addition.

My client is having a hissy fit due to the time it has taken. I'm tell you, some projects take time. I bet they won't remember the extra time if the project knocks their socks off.

Joe

[brucehiggins]

Joe,
I am in for your workshop if it's a go. Let me know how much, where and when and I am there.
Bruce

[jhicks]

Nice Joe, as usual picturtes speek louder than words or so it appears here. We also use this technique and our but is a plunge 1/2" round over. The cetner of the bit is actually a 1/4" straight plunge and the radius starts on the outer edges of that 1/4" center straight cutter so indeed one sets cut file for a 1/4" end mill, dives to desired depth then reloads a real 1/4" bit/end mill for final cut out.
Very simple and effective technique. Glad to see you have adopted it. I know it takes a while for you to catch up but beter late than never :-)
Be well and let me know about the september group. I may be headed to El Paso in Sept or Oct to visit my relocating designer

[joe]

Howdy Jerry,

Thanks for the complements. I'm sorry to report, I've never been able make your technique work. Not that it isn't good though. I'm still using the same technique for years past.

Here's the general sign layout. The strips on the end will be copper Sculpt Nouveau. I've made these from 1/4" masonite. A couple of good coats of epoxy should keep them safe. As mentioned earlier, this is an Extira sign.


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To save time in texturing the letters, we used a spray can of Rocker Panel Spray. This provides a good surface for the texture that follows. It sands very well and accepts all sorts of paint

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Once again, the letters are a simple profile cut with a roundover bit. NO Programing. NO Nuttin. NO Technique either.

Studnets will become experts at this during my workshop coming up in September. Stay tuned for the course particulars. It'll be fun.

Joe


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[joe]

Woops,


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[jhicks]

Now you show us the true genius. The cutting technques are all cool BUT the genius and creativity in design, material selection, simplicity, and finishing is the real difference between a "sign maker" and a Joe Crumley.
The machine(s) are helpful tools but the best machine is between your ears and Joe seems to have a lot in that space. Probably lost more than I'll ever have.
Thanks Joe

[magic]

So

How much time did you save from making them in 3D?

[jhicks]

Magic i'm sure Joe will post but having done this basic style both ways I can tell you there is a dramatic difference in favor of the roundover bit profile technique not to mention design simplicity. As a percentage I would say one saves at least 75% if not 90% + of the time. Its a few minutes max if that per letter vs 10 to 30 inutes per letter depending on ball nose bit, step over, material thickness etc. whereas the roundover is a single pass profile. run a virtual file and time test and you instantly be sold where this fits the need.

[jhicks]

90% Plus design simplicity. No contest where it meets the need

[joe]

Majic,

When you start out with 3D work, time isn't much of a concern. However after the initial learning period, it a pick and choose process.

And you've asked a very important question.

One of the myths about 3D work is how long it takes to make a finished piece. That't not always the case. For example you can use different techniques and bits to speed up the rough out parts, then come back with one of those little 1/16" bit in specific area's where you choose. There isn't any reason, in general work, which has some deliclate parts, to do the whole thing with a ittsey bittsey bit. Some folks haven put their mind to this, yet. So, it's ittsey bittsey bits in small, little area's of your sign, and larger bits for 3D hog out routing. All in the same file.

Had I been making these letters 3D, there'd been options for a much more precise letter. Some work needs that quality and can justify the time. Second point is, there isn't anything wrong in making letters in 3D with little or no stepover. This leave a much rougher surface which I often prefer. That can be a benefit on rough hune signs. Let me also mention, there isn't any 3D work which can't be improved with a sharp chisel. Knowing this, I will often select a strategy where there is need for hand work. Looks better toooo!

My routing time with a roundover was between twenty and thirty minutes. With 3D, using a broad stepover and high speed, it's somewhere in the three to four hour range. Not that significant. After all, the CNC is often loafing around in the corned. Lazy darn thing! I'd fire it except it's now family, besides it's paid for.

Joe

[bpfohler]

Joe,
You don't use an auto primer on your extira letters like you do on the signs?
I want to use some extira for a sign so I'm curious what auto primer your using?
PPG DP40 epoxy primer is what I'm thinking of using

[joe]

Robert,

My use of HB primer is when I'm looking for a dead smooth surface.

Extira can be primed with any distilate primer so long as you give it a nice soapy water bath. That gets rid of the oily surface. I use a stiff bristle brush which sets up the surface for primers. The only time I've had problems is with using a latex-water based primer.

Good luck with your sign.

Joe

[dubliner]

Joe, could I ask how you set the Z with the different bits. I was playing with this method today & I ended up cutting through with 1/4 em &leaving tabs & then switching to roundover( I had taken the bearing off & ground off thread).I used two separate toolpaths so I could swap & Z the second bit. It seemed to work because I'm not sure what I was doing. I hope you do have that class in September. Neville

[joe]

Neville,

Glad to see your trying something different. Lets see if I can help.

Since this is a deliclate process I'd suggest you purchase plunge point round over. I like the 1/4 1/2 3/4.Woodline has them for about $12.@

Here's the trick. Every letter style and size requires a different technique. There isn't any programing as such.

Set the type (Choose your favorite letter style)
Tell your router software you are using a 1/4" strait bit for a profile cut.
Put the round over bit in insted of the strait bit.
Guess at the depth needed. Try 1/4 or 1/2 dept.

Carv away. Go deeper or shallower. It's your choice. Try several depth till your jaw drops and you know you have it right.

Now you put the strait bit in and cut the letters away.

Show us a photo of what your doing.

[myxpykalix]

Normally I only recommend www.centuriontools.com (http://www.centuriontools.com) for bits but they don't carry roundover bits. So for the best variety of roundover and sprial bits you should go to: http://magnate.net/

I hate the way they have their site laid out and it is hard to navigate but they have decent prices and hard to find profiles.

[jhicks]

Agree with Jack, this is what we use for round over plunge bits. Thats what i was trying to explain in the earlier post about a round over with a 1/4" tip. It cuts a 1/4" groove with roundover on the outer edges of the groove so when one changes to the true 1/4" bit for the cut out, all tool paths are the same except for depth of cut all the way through vs a shallower depth for the 1st pass to accomplish the roundover.