How did they produce these letters?

[mklafehn]

Here is a photo of some letters at one of my clients locations. They are made from 1" gatorboard with a gold polyester foil on the face. My customer wants me to produce more of these letters.

Since I did not produce these, my question is how were they produced. I have used a 1/16" bit without any luck because the corners (especially) the M still have a rounded appearance. I even have a laser and you can forget about using that with any foam based product because it will melt the foam even at low power.

Any suggestions, ideas would be appreciated.


6118


6119

[tomj]

Perhaps they are cut out and cleaned up by hand? Just a thought.

[Brady Watson]

Waterjet or a steady hand and a scroll saw...(doubt that).

-B

[joe]

Perhaps you could look at http://www.scottsigns.com/catalogPDFs/Section25-33.pdf
Page 27

I believe these are Mica faced letters. This is the only company I know of who produces these.

[mklafehn]

I called Scott Signs and it appears that the letters were done by them. They charge $7/letter, plus $.60 per letter for spacing tape to align letters on wall.
Asked how these are cut and they said they are router cut.

OK, so if they have a router that cuts these why can't we do the same. They stopped short of telling me what type of router they use (for obvious reasons).

Maybe there is someone out there that has done these on the bot. Or maybe, this is just out of our league.

[bill.young]

Mike,

If you look at the inside of the M is it sharp all the way to the back of the letter or is it radiused a little?

It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks like there's a small bevel around the edge of the letters. I wonder if the face is cut with a v-bit first that lifts in the corners (the way the corners are done on mdf doors), so that the sharp corners are in the face only? Then the letter is cut out with a small diameter bit but all you notice is the sharp corner on the face and don't see the rounded section further back?

Bill

[paco]

You can find 1/8"CED X 1-1/8"CEL and 1/4"CED X 2-1/4"CEL at Onsrud and Hartlauer bit. HSS (not recommend; wobbling) and solid carbide (don't drop it, don't hit clamp... be very careful).

Beyond that, I would be afraid to inquire about either price or limits...

I agree that the thickness:size ratio from the picture with the very small radius is confusing... my first bet, depending on the material in which they we're made, would have been like Brady; Water Jet. If router; a secret is being kept...

Notice that the picture show them from somewhat sideway almost. I wonder what the radius look like from the front.

[Brady Watson]

Bill I think you might be on to something...if that is one homogenous piece, the only way you can cut something that tight is with a waterjet...However, as you point out, the face veneer looks to be laminated to the lower block...So while the lower block my have been cut on a router, and the bit 'jacked' into the corners, the face veneer, with waterjet or (more likely) laser cut corners, covers up any corner radii.

Does that make sense? Mike K., can you please post some head-on shots so that we can get a bird's eye view of the letters, plus a shot of the back of the letters?

Thanks!
-B

[mziegler]

Mike what kind of gatorboard is that? Is the laminated plastic or paper or something else? Look like there is no laminate on the bottom of the letters. May be the letters were router first in the polystyrene and then the laminate place on top of letters. Then they routed the plastic laminate with a V-bit. Mark

[itoolfred]

Mike,
I've done some similar work for a couple of the shops in the local mall. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what it happening, but the customer likes the shiney gold and silver. So I take him the gator board and he puts the chrome and gold vinyl on the board. Then I cut using a 1.5"long 1/8" downcut. Took me foreever to get the speed correct w/out melting the gator board. I haven't done these letters in some time, but I seem to remember it was as slow as my router would go and approx 3"/sec move speed.

Also, he could have just done the gatorboard then done the polyester foil and glued together after they were all cut. Cleanup up on a 1/4" spindle sander. (whoops just noticed mark already said this above)
Fred

[Brady Watson]

Look @ the 'crotch' of the letter M & e...they were not done with a 1/8" or even a 1/16" bit...the corners are too sharp.

-B

[mklafehn]

Here is a front pic, but not of the 'M', you can see how sharp the corners are with this pic especially of the 'a'. The letters are indeed 1" black gatorboard with a brushed gold polyester foil, and the foam is painted gold as well. You can tell from close examination that these letters were cut in one operation. There are no visible machine marks on the edge. Scott Signs said emphatically, that they are not waterjet cut.

Anyway, I called Onsrud and they said that the smallest diameter bit they have for foam is 1/8"CED with a 1-1/8" CEL (like Paco mentioned). However, this is too large for the kind of corners you see here. Onsrud, said that a bit "might" be made out of HSS that is 1/16" CED and 1" CEL, but they would have a hard time grinding the bit without snapping it.

While this intrigues me, and to some degree a little frustration creeps in, it probably is something I will have to leave to Scott Signs.

There may be some method to achieve this corner tightness, but at $7/letter it probably is not worth pursuing.

Thanks for all of your comments.


6120

[wcsg]

Looks like Gator foam with .040 anodized alum, brushed gold alum. It's hard to take a pic of this material but I'm beting that's what it is. It usually goes for $100 a 4'x8'. COuld have been routed then hand cut inside corners with bandsaw or jigsaw.

[joewino]

In my opinion you are going to spend a lot more than $7 a letter trying to do what they do. Scott and Gemini produce these things by the thousands and are good at it. I would rather buy the letters from them, mark them up, and install and make money rather than going through the headache of reinventing the wheel.

Today I sold a set of .25" aluminum letters (baked enamel) that I will get from Gemini and will make a little over $1,500 for putting some double stick tape on the back and installing them on an interior wall. I'll send them the artwork and they will waterjet cut the letters and logo and ship them back to me.

I try to let other folks do what they do best and that allows me to do what I do best.

[joe]

Raymond's on the right trail. $7.00 is hard to beat even if they use a router, water jet or band saw. Doesn't make much sence to compete on this level. Buy their letters. They are of good quality.

J

[wcsg]

I'm going with a figure from Gemini. I don't know what height and quantity of the letter is but if it's say a 9" using a gator or acrylic letter with alum face your looking at a wholesale price of $23.00 each. If it's small quantities it's great to outsource but if your doing alot of them it's cheaper and better control to do them yourself.

[luke]

This looks like "EDM" Electrical Discharge Machining.

[jamesgilliam]

Buy and mark up is the way to go. Bandsaw or EDM would not work due to continuous blade or wire. Scroll saw would work, but not time efficient.

[davidallen]

Would it be possible to make the letters in pieces?

The joints with an acute angle could be made as separate parts then glued.

For instance, the loop of the 'a' would be separate from the leg.

A face cover would then hide the joint while giving sharp corners.

[jhicks]

Just one more voice in the crowd here. It does appear to me that the V in the M is slightly rounded so I'm not convinced yet this wasn't done on a router. More importantly the substrate on the top appears to be 1/8" to 1/4" thick mounted on top of foam. So IF that were true, one could easily cut the top substrate on a router with lets say an 1/8" for a 1/16" radius or even a 1/16" bit delivering a 1/32" radius which would be pretty darn clean and mount it on top of a Hot wire foam cut letter.
Just another viewpoint for your consideration.

[wcsg]

Maybe my eyes are bad but I just don't see this radius edge, it looks flat to me. Did the original poster state it's rounded?

[jhicks]

Well not knowing the size or scale here but assuming its reasonably large 5" or more and perhaps 2" thick, I am thinking a 1/32" radius (IN THE CORNERS, not on edges) would look something like what I see there.
Wouldn't be the 1st time I was wrong though.
I'm sure someone will figure it out and point out my error, but I would try the laminated top cut with a 1/16" bit to see just how tiny that radius really is after you cut it if I wanted to make these.

[aaasigncom]

THOSE LETTERS ARE OFFERED BY www.polyplasticforms.com (http://www.polyplasticforms.com) THE SURFACE MATERIAL IS AVAILABLE FROM SIGN SUPPLIERS. YOUR SAMPLE LOOKS LIKE BRUSHED GOLD FINISH ON FOAM. MANY COLORS AND TEXTURES ARE AVAILABLE IN PLASTICS AND METALS. YOU CAN LAMINATE THE METAL OR PLASRIC TO FOAM YOURSELF. UNLESS YOU HAVE A BIG JOB, YOU WILL MAKE MONEY ORDERING THESE LETTERS. SEE SAMPLE PIC ATTACHED. HOPE THIS HELPS YOU. www.AAASIGN.com (http://www.AAASIGN.com) INDIANAPOLIS, IN
6121

[matt_r]

Hmmm... I came across this thread while searching the site for gator foam. I just finished a job for a sign shop that I do work for. The job called for laminating 032 or 040 colored aluminum on gator and/or pvc and cutting letters. It works ok, but sometimes the gator really gets chewed up. I was going to post and ask if anybody has any info for the best bit to use when cutting this combo of gator and aluminum. Which bit, speeds and feeds, etc. My best cuts finally came with a Freud 76-102 1/4" bit, 19,000 RPM, and 1.7 in/sec. But still, occasionally, the gator sometimes got chewed. But now, all of this discussion has me thinking, that I just might have to start doing business with Gemini. Does anybody know what they're lead times are like?

Anyway, if anybody has any suggestions on the cutting of aluminum laminated to foam, I'd love to hear them.

-Matt

[ray_skaines]

Matt, whatever direction your cutting, climb mill or conventional, try reversing. We had the same problem with the fuzzy edging of the gatorboard. When we cut in the other direction it worked ok.

Ray


6122

[matt_r]

Ray,
What is your bit of choice? I looked up the one I mentioned, the Freud 76-102. It is a downcut spiral, and it seems leave a nice edge on the aluminum.

If you go to the website for Ultra Aluminum,

http://www.ultraboard.com/ultraaluminum_tech.html

they recommend an upcut spiral, an Onsrud 52-000 series or similar.

The problem I found with an upcut, is that I don't get a good edge on the aluminum, it will often chip or curl - which leaves me to do a lot of hand clean up.

The other problem I seem to see is this: as the tool plunges into the material to begin a cut, the aluminum shaving generated during that plunge looks like a long pig tail, and often ends up going down into the foam with the cutter. At that point I imagine something like a 'weed whacker' effect going on in the foam beneath. I know that some programs offer a feature to begin the cut at some tangent to the tool path and move in to the start point of the outline. But I use VCW, and it doesn't have that option, but it does having tabbing, which is handy.

Anyway, nice looking lettering in your pic. And yes, I have reversed direction before to get rid of fuzzies, especially on the insides of a's and o's etc, I usually do a climb mill on those.

-Matt

[ray_skaines]

Sorry, Matt. I'm not sure of the # bit used other than it was a 1/8th downcut. The upcut will have a tendency to pull the glued aluminum up also.

There is not a tangent in VCW. I used Parts Wizard and used the tangent there.

Ray

[jhicks]

we recently ran some 1," Ultra Foam letters with brushed aluminum finish and black core. Technique was climb at 45 IPM, (not sure on rpm but think around 11,000?) cut down through aluminum approx .050 1st pass, blow off excess metal
shavings while cutting, To make sure shavings didn't get into foam edges then cut all the way through single pass while on vac bed hold down. Foam Edges and aluminum worked out well with 3/16" dia Onsrud upcut bit 52- series on 1/4" shank with 1,1/4" cut length.
For 2" thick Gator we use 1/4" bit single pass but I think about 90 to 120IMP. We learned the hard way to place a thin plastic sheet with 1,1/2" diameter holes in it like swiss cheese to allow vacuum hold cavities. Cut down about .015 to .030 into the plastic sheet depending on thickness. If you don't cut all the way through the bottom skin, the plastic surface material will chip and expose foam inside the edges. BAD News one can not correct after the fact.
The plastic prevents any Trupan dust from the spoil board from contaminating the foam. Same technique on Ultra Foam. Once that dust gets to the foam you're done! Cant blow it off or clean that brown off the nice clean core material

Don't have photo on this PC but you can see results of Ultra and Gator foam letters at our blog
http://whww.blogspot.com/
if interested.