Removing Gerber Mask II Residue

[richards]

I just made two V-Carved signs using a high gloss black lacquer as the background color and ivory as the lettering color. The Gerber Mask II product worked well, leaving the lettering crisp, but it left an adhesive residue when I pulled it off the sign.

What is the secret to peeling Gerber Mask II off of the sign without leaving a messy residue?

Mike

[gerald_d]

Was your black lacquer completely cured before you applied the mask?

[kerrazy]

The mask residue, comes off with water, or just rub it with your fingers. I have on occasion had similar problems, but it came off real easy
Dale

[zeykr]

Were are you all purchasing your Gerber Mask II and what does it cost?

[richards]

Thanks for the help.

Gerald - I waited 36 hours after spraying the lacquer before applying the mask. To me that's long enough, but I'm not a painter. Any ideas?

Dale - Thanks for the water tip. It didn't even occur to me to try plain water. I experimented with every solvent/thinner that I had on hand. Mineral Spirits was my last effort before posting the plea for help.

Ken - A local sign supply company, Regional Supply in Salt Lake City. The Gerber Mask II costs just over $100 for a 50 yd roll that is 15 inches wide.

Now, back to making signs. I made the mistake of carving a "cutesy" plaque for my wife. Within a few hours my two married daughters had orders for several dozen plaques on condition that I could furnish v-carved plaques that had a high gloss finish. Then the experiments began.

The material is MDF since the plaques and signs are small enough that weight is not a problem and everything is meant for indoor use.

Lacquer was choosen because it's easy to work with, very forgiving when mistakes are made (simply recoat and the layers melt together), fast drying, and it cleans up easily. As a side note, I've watched my old photo lab customers use lacquer for more than twenty years. Most of them only clean their guns on Friday afternoon. The rest of the time, they simply dip the gun's nozzle in lacquer thinner from time to time to unclog the orfices.

After reading lots of posts on this forum, I selected the following procedure:

1. Prime the MDF with a high-solids content primer. Use two or more coats, sanding between coats until the desired primed surface is achieved.

2. Spray on the background color using as many coats of lacquer as necessary.

3. Spray on clear coat of lacquer to protect the color coat.

4. Let paint cure for 1-2 days.

5. Apply Gerber Mask II

6. V-carve the plaque/sign

7. Spray on a coat of base color

8. Spray on lettering color

9. Spray on clear coat to protect the lettering.

10. Remove Gerber mask material.

11. Remove mask residue with water.

12. Spray on clear coat, if necessary.

There are lots of steps, but most of them take just a few seconds per plaque/sign.

Any suggestions?

Mike

[joe]

Mike,

You could try using Gold Leaf to fill your letters. There isn't anything like it for visability or quality.

Watch out, you will get hooked.

Joe

[matt_r]

Joe,
What product do you recommend for doing gold leaf in carved letters? Doing a Google search on gold leaf yields many different products. Just wondering what you've had sucess with, and how it is applied.

Thanks,
Matt

[joe]

Matt.

Gilding isn't difficult once you're on to the process. You will probably need a little assistance as you begin.

Look for a "Letterhead" sign artist in your area who will probably be glad to assist.

I use Rick Glawsons supply. www.esotericsignsupply.com (http://www.esotericsignsupply.com)

Joe

[richards]

I'm still having trouble with Gerber Mask II. It seems like the lacquer (thinned 100%) is bleeding through the Gerber Mask II when I spray on the lettering color. Using 3M 08984 adhesive remover and lots of elbow grease removes the adhesive, but ... it's expensive and adds a step that takes more time than all of the other steps combined.

Do any of you coat/seal the Gerber II with something to stop bleed-through?

[joe]

Mike,

Is the problem caused by too much wet lacquer atop the mask which causes the mask adhesive to release? If so, reduce the amount of wet lacquer. Lighter, dryer coats and, or use a barrier coat with a can of Kils primer.

Joe

[richards]

Joe,

The lacquer seems to increase the adhesion of the Gerber Mask II to the plaques that I'm painting. As far as I can tell, the masking material is not lifting away from the plaque. In fact, the adhesion is great enough that removing the mask takes significant force.

As a test, we painted a few plaques with water based paint, a few with shellac, and a few with poster paint. Without routing or further painting, the Gerber Mask II released from all of them with little or no problem (except the poster paint, which flaked off - as expected). However, when I routed the plaques and then used lacquer to spray the lettering, the adhesive residue was excessive.

I'm not much of a painter, so I'll experiment with lighter, drier coats of lacquer, using just enough thinner to get the proper droplet size. My reasoning in thinning 100% was to get a good melt-through without needing to sand between coats, a technique suggested by the local Sherwin-Williams dealer, who suggested that the lacquer could be thinned up to 125%.

I'll also try your suggestion of using a barrier coat of primer on the Gerber Mask. Making the mask less pervious to the lacquer should eliminate the major portion of the problem. For example, when I mask the plaques, I use just enough masking material to cover the lettering plus a margin of about 1/2-inch past the lettering. Then, I use blue masking tape and brown masking paper to cover the rest of the plaque. Where the Gerber Mask material is covered with the blue tape and/or the brown masking paper, the adhesive residue is relatively minor, at least when compared to the adhesive residue under the rest of the Gerber Mask.

Mike

[joe]

Mike,

I think you have found the answer. Apparently the lacquer thinner is the problem. Some kind of barrier coat should do the trick. My only concern is with the texture of the barrier coat. Often times some little glitch such as this takes more time than the whole job.

I'm interested as to the size and material you are carving, as well as the software you are using.

J

[richards]

Joe,

The plaques are MDF about 15x7 inches and about 10x5 inches. The software is PartWizard 2.

Everything is as simple as I can possibly make it. In PartWizard using standardized files as templates, I select the template's existing text, modify it, size it, center it, create a tool path, save the tool path under a work-order name, modify the work-order.sbp file using standardized headers and footers that (1) adds code to start/stop the router and (2) positions the router at -18,5 when routing is finished, to allow for easy removal of the plaque from the vacuum (I have a 120-60 that is setup as a 96-60). Then I dump the files to the sb computer via wireless networking, route the plaques and then paint. Creating the files and routing the plaques usually take less than one-minute each; painting takes forever.

Mike

[dvanr]

My real job involves inkjet printing , both solvent and water based. A very popular media of late has been canvas for limited edition prints. In order to preserve prints longer a clearcoat is applied. The rule in applying a clearcoat to an inkjet print is if the print is done with solvent use a water based clearcoat, and use solvent clearcoats for waterbased ink prints. Crossing over on the two clearcoat types prevents the prints from running or blurring

The same rule seems may apply here, try top coating the gerber mask with a water based coating ( acrylic paint?) then cut and spray with the solvent based paint.

DvanR

[beacon14]

Shellac also makes a good barrier for lacquer, and it dries quickly.

[zeykr]

I've purchased some Gerber Mask II to try to make sign painting a little easier on me, but have a quandry:

Say I want to make an odd shaped sign (not square or rectangle) such as Dale Kerr's Frogwater sign (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=2&post=13709#POST13709).


As I understand how others are using the masking, they would cut the sign blank to shape first, then prepare and paint it (front, sides and back), then mask and cut it.

How are you getting the odd shaped, painted sign blank back on the table and aligned such that your lettering and outline tool paths such as that on the frogwater sign end up exactly where you want them?

I can see where if I was making several signs of a particular shape, I could cut out that shape in a square or rectangular fixture to hold them and align off the fixture itself, but doesn't seem real practical for one-off jobs. How are you all handling this - am I missing something simple?

[billp]

Ken,
In a lot of cases like this I use "indexing holes"on a piece of plywood. I also drill corresponding holes in the back of my sign blank.I then mark a position on my 'Bot table where this jig will go. Then I can cut the blank to shape, and remove everything from the machine. I prep/paint the blank,place my mask on the piece, then I place it back over the indexing holes ( I use a 5/16"dowel as my indexing pin..) on the jig which is now clamped back in it's original place. If time has passed between these steps I always use the "0,0"point which was the original lower left hand corner of my uncut blank, and then I chuck a small V bit into the router. I use my engineer's square to dial in the exact corner ( OR I could use the proximity switches if I dod all of this at the TRUE machine 0,0 but I always have clamps there for some reason...). Worst case scenario so far was that I was off a few thousanths of an inch from the true corner, but nothing that would be visible to the human eye. I am sure others have similar tricks and we should hear about them soon..

[Brady Watson]

Ken,
In a situation like that, I do a few things. 1st, I cut out my blank and doctor it all up/finish.

Then, when I am ready to carve it, I make 2 toolpaths. I 1st offset my sign blank size about .01 to the outside (to compensate for paint thickness) and do an INSIDE profile pass in software. I then setup the text/design within that boundary and run a toolpath on it.

I take a piece of scrap plywood, MDF ~ whatever, and cut the blank shape out. I then place the blank in the hole (use DS tape or other means to hold it) and do my lettering toolpath.

By setting everything up in software, you share a common 0,0 with your fixture and nothing gets messed up.

Just another way...there are many.

-Brady

[zeykr]

I've purchased some gerber mask II and have been experimenting with mixed results. When I v-cut letters using a bit such as a hersaf 120v, the mask works very well - it remains adhered and has sharp edges even on small areas such as the middle of an 'e' etc.

Problem is when I try to do something like pocket a letter or pocket around letters leaving them rasied, or try to cut a border around a sign. The mask gets pushed loose around the edges and bunched up - not cut cleanly at all. I've tried it with both a 3 flute endmill and with an onsrud 2 flute downcut router bit. I've tried both raster and offset clearance toolpath strategies.

Am I using the wrong type of bit, toolpath strategy, or does the mask only work for v carving? How are you all doing this type of thing?

Thanks for the help!

[jsfrost]

Ken,
I have not tried to pocket with mask yet, but since there are no other replies, I'll venture few guesses. The V bit always removes a small mask area as the tip enters the material, while the end mill always removes material accross it's full diameter and at a higher speed at the outer edges assuming the same router speed. I can envision the mask being twisted by the end mill before the edge is fully cut. I've also noticed that PW frequently outlines edges of V carve letters with the tip of the V bit prior to plunging and cutting the center line.

Cutting a slight "Mask +" depth "trace along vector" with a V bit prior to pocketing might minimize the mask tearout?

[kerrazy]

Ken,
I pocket all the time with the mask. Always ensure the mask is on a finished surface, that is clean and free of dust. Also ensure you burnish the mask to the surface really well with a vinyl squeegee. If your cutters are dull it will actually pull the mask up rather than cut it.
When settting up your toolpath, try and ensure you cut from the outside in, and stop your cut after it does the intial outside pass. Remove the mask in the centre, as this will only cause adhesive buildup on your bit.
Good luck
Dale