New Project

[joe]

We've started a new sign project and thought I'd post the progress through it's installation. This should take about week. The production time depends to some extent on our regular work load. But we are excited about getting this one on it's way.

The client is an up-scale legal firm. They have contracted us to design, build and install the a double sided ground sign. The sign itself is made from HDU and the letters and posts are from Extira. We will also include gold anodozed aluminum and 23K.

Luck for me another SB guy, Dennis Sapp, has volunteered to assist with the project. This is his first time to get in on one of my projects from the start. I'm working the hell out of him. He's an excellent hand. So far I let him do all the CNC work.

We had a little trouble at the start. My sandblast stencil didn't hold as well as usual but it all turned out ok. The letters are very simple to make. We rounded them over with a single pass with a 3/8" round over bit set at Z.35. This was a simple profile cut without any offset. We came back with a 1.4" tool for the cut out. It's important to keep in mind that Extira requires good vacuum pick up. It produces a nasty dust. The letters come out very smooth and need little sanding.

Tomorrow we will sandblast and start finishing the letters. Day three should be more finishing and fabrication of sign itself.


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Thanks to all

[wemme]

Hello Joe,
Nice work! what software tools are you using
to draw and cam in if you don't mind me asking?
Regards
Bart

[joe]

Wemme,

I use FlexiSign for the vectors and Insignia for the tool path. My work is so simple, any basic program would work just as well.

I begin each project with very rough thumbnail drawings. It's so effecient to work this way as I can proceed throught initial concepts with speed. Sometimes I'm draw on napkins at the restaurant, or on the back of an envelope. Concepts almost never are at a drawing table. My morning shave is probably the most regular creative time. It's a mess.

From there I proceed to the computer for refining the shape and fonts. I can't remember using a premaid panel from clipart.

J.

J
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[NSchlee (Unregistered Guest)]

Joe, What do you use for the gold on the lettering in the Sullivan sign? Leaf?

Neal

[tim_whitcher]

Man! Joe, you amaze me! What an inspiration! I've got to get to work on a project like that! If you don't mind my asking, what are you charging for that Legal Firm sign? I would guess around eight grand? (I'm probably way off).

[joe]

Neal,

I've been using Manetti 23K Italian patent gold for years now. It's the only type of gold I use.

Tim,

Thanks for the nice words.

Your not that far off. I price my signs at $125. per square foot w/o the gold. This particular sign is scheduled to have about $1000 of 23K.

The sign itself before the patent is $6,500.

I'm allways available to assist any of my sign friends with advice. Feel free to ask any question.

Joe

[joe]

Second Day:

We fired up the sandblaster. Dennis was amazed at how fast it went. For those of you who haven't tried sandblasting a panel where the background is allready reduced down by half, it only takes a quick pass through the Grain Frame to give a nice wood pattern.

I built a 10' sandblast booth a year ago. It's made so I just put my hands in and move back and forth with the nozil. The Vacuum takes care of all most all the sand particles. Now it's fun to do.

Next is the removal of the mask. Aren't Dennis and Terry handsome dudes?

A quick sanding off and priming of the HDU. The letters are now ready for a quick coat of diluted epoxy or shellac.




Tomorrow we will work on the decorative top, and fluted posts.

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[bleeth]

Joe: What software and tool strategy did you use for the serifs? That does not look like Insignia v-carve relief.

Dave

[rookie432]

Joe, VERY NICE step by step. I'm building a similar sign right now. Similar in the fact that I'm applying serif bevelled letters to the face carved from extira. I found however that although extira will cut smooth in a vee carve, the bevelled letter cut so extremely fuzzy that I had hours in sanding and still had to rely on a primer to build up the surface to get a smooth enough finish for gold. It doesn't look as though you are having this problem. Is this a property of trupan?
Good to see you have the ability to command $125 sq ft. Your signwork is definitely worth it. I can only seem to get $75-$100 where I am before patent. However I don't usually sandblast backround either, that is a nice added feature. I really like your raised outlines feature as well.

Can't wait top see this one done.

Bill

[joe]

Bill,

Thanks for the nice words.

Perhaps you could use a thin coat of shellac on your letters before you sand. This will harden off and fuzz making the sanding much easier.

You might want to use an automotive high build primer to smooth out any little imperfections. I'll take a photo to show how this looks.

You could save money by applying letters to any kind of background if it isn't textured. Perhaps you could do some hand gouge work to make your sign look much more expensive. It's fun too.

I have a couple you might look at on my web page,
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

The $125.00 a square is history. Yep I'm up to $150. as of this week. It's worth every penny.

J

[mklafehn]

You can tell I'm new to the outdoor signage game. What does 'patent' refer to?

[supertigre]

Patent, means Patent leaf, gold leaf that is on a paper carrier. This makes it easier to apply (in some cases) then loose gold leaf.

[joe]

Day 3

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The fluted posts are complete, ready for texturing. Today we primed and sanded the letters, and completed the top section which houses the gold anodized aluminum "Scales of Justice".

Three days to go.

J

[rookie432]

As an aside I believe I have finally found an exterior gold paint that may be an acceptable substitute for projects that don't have the budget for real gold.
http://www.metallicmart.com
I have ordered and tested the admirals gold. A little yellow but if the letters are prepainted with a gloss black then coated with the metallic gold the finish is surprisingly reflective and rich. The best part is the paint is waterbased and dries fairly quickly (about an hour) and can be sprayed. It is also exterior rated. This company markets to the Vegas casino's for metallic finishes on their architectural features.
If you have ever used one shot metallic gold there is no comparison.
Just thought I'd share this info with fellow signmakers. They sell a sample swatch sheet for $10 that has an actual dab of paint of all thier colors. The color selection is very good.
A similar company here:
http://discountpaint.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=D&Category_Cod e=201&gclid=CNGctoPFlIMCFS0IGgodvXq5NA

[joe]

Bill,

There are a couple of qualities that destiguishes gold from all other surface materials. It won't tarnish or turn color with time, and perhaps the most important is the rich reflective sheen that's unmatched.

For me the cost of gold is very cheap. A book of 23K costs is about $65. That's about $3.00 a sheet which covers a 2"X2" letter. So, if you have a dozen letters it's about $40 bucks.

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Looking back, there isn't any way I'd ever, ever, ever, consider anything but the gold standard. That's a waste of time and false economic search.

Joe
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Jennifer, my baby daughter, and I visited Africa, Cairo last year. My photo of the your King Tut was very impressive. The gold looked to be at least 1/4 thick. I really peeked at it very close.

[rookie432]

Joe,
I agree that nothing replaces real gold. If I had My way I would use real gold on every sign I made. And the material cost is somewhat neglegable.However it is a bit more labor intensive than paint and I can offer the client who is on the fence pricewise the option. Instead of walking away from a job because I will only use real gold on my signs I can give the customer a lower cost option with a "close" match. Of course I make sure they know that they are choosing a lower value option as well because the benefits of real gold far outweigh the cost difference, but as I'm sure everyone has experienced some clients are only interested in the bottom line. What I'm unwilling to do is drop my price on real gold just to close the sale. The client always gets more than what he/she pays for from me because I take pride in my work but I have to draw the line sometimes at just giving it away. Therefore I was happy to find the option.
Sometimes the finish just has to be Gold and if the customer is unable/unwilling to pay for real gold then ...we get close and sometimes close counts.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not looking for a way to put more profit in my pocket by substituting gold paint for real gold because if it were my choice it would be real gold all the time.

[waynelocke]

What do you charge for gold leafing? I do it occassionaly, never charge enough and wonder how you fiqure the cost.

Wayne

[joe]

Bill,

Very good post, I understand.

I'm also cautious with some customers about mentioning 23K. Even if the project needs it, I may vear away from the subject.

There are times, in the design process, I visualize a little gold here are there and add the cost into the finished price, never mentioning it. Customers are allways impressed.

One little trick I often do is add a small routed cove to the outside edge of a sign and then apply gold in roll gold form in that cove. This cost very little but really sets the sign apart.



Wayne: Pricing Gold Work.

There's the cost of materials and time it takes. I mark up the cost of gold by 5X. I don't know what your hourly rate is but that should get you right in there. I don't add back in half sheets or skews. If I even pick up a piece of patent, it goes on the tab. Even if I sneeze on it.

It really shouldn't take that much time. Here are a few hints. I use roll gold on a lot of stuff. For example lets say I have a 3'X8 ' sign w/a 1/4" cove on the outside border. I can apply the complete border in 5 to 8 minutes. If I had standard letters such as Ariel, Folio, Times, Goudy, with a .50" inch stroke, the application of roll gold is lickedy split fast, with almost NO skews. This is a very little known technique and I don't know why. I've never seen it used in the sign trade. It's fool proof.

When doing more complex letters like the ones on the "RUMORS" sign, I've found it helpful to use regular gold, sometimes called glass gold. This is loose and free in the book. Using a gilders tipthe gold will droop right over the curved surfaces. Saves lots of time. I think double XX glass gold is much brighter also. That's debateable.

Have you ever had any hands on instructions. Where the artists stood right over you, making you nervious, and insisting on you doing everything right? Couldn't hurt!

Doug Strickland has requested a gold seminar at the Ada Camp this year. I was thinking about Sculpt Nouveau, but will do what ever anyone wants. Just can't tell if there's enough router folks interested, besides it's not a sit down and do it job. There's drying times and you can't rush it.

Perhaps you should consider a Letterhead meat this year.

J.

[drodda]

Where is ADA? I would be very interested in seeing the gold technique in person. I have been wanting to do gold on a couple poker tables. I have played with signs a little also.

[den73160]

Ada, Oklahoma camp is in March.

[joe]

To Dave Resenbleeth,

I was just re-reading some of the previous comments and questions and realized I had omited answering a very important question by Dave R.

The question was about tool stratedgy on the letters. I don't use much of anything. The bit is a standard 3/8" roundover. I Z it down enough to round over the serifs. This will vary with the stroke of the letterstyle. That's all there is to it. No prism stratedgy at all. Don't trust Insignia that program will screw it up real good if you try the prism mode.

I tried to enlarge the photo enough to show the slight ridge in the broader area of the letter. This should be sanded smooth.
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[rookie432]

Well, after defending my position on new gold paint I decided to test it next to patent gold leaf. As impressed I was by the new gold paint there still was no comparison to real gold. (blush). I went to the client (luckily a friend of mine) and explained that if he wanted the high quality gold look it was going to have to be real gold leaf. He agreed to pony up some extra for the real gold. The difference is akin to shining a light on brushed aluminum and then shining the same light on chrome. I will say that the gold paint does make a good base coat for the real gold to apply over. If you get a pinhole or two you can't tell at all plus because of its reflective nature I think it heightens the reflectiveness of the gold patent. I'll probably still use this line of paint colors because of their reflective finish, but definitly not in place of gold leaf for a ruduced price. Joe I should have just called you first


Bill

[neal@lasertechalaska.com]

Joe, What do you use for size when you leaf? Are you using a top coat after leaf is applied? If so, what do you use?

Neal

[joe]

Neal,

I use LeFranc slow size. This is one of the best I've found.

Bill,

Congratulations on a good decision. The first step is the hardest. If I can assist, please give me a call.

J

[joe]

The project is a couple of days away from finished
We are in the painting process, not much to show today, but tomorrow we'll start lettering and gilding.

J
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[rookie432]

Joe,
Is that topper cut from mdf and stacked. Looks great but it must be HEAVY

Bill

[joe]

Bill,

It's three layers of 1.5" HDU. We textured it along with the fluted posts, with Precision Board Crack filler. We sand it allmost smooth when dry. Rather light weight.

The insets are bright gold anodized aluminum. It was glued to .25 luster board.



J

[zeykr]

Joe,
Really enjoying this thread and learning a lot! Thanks!

[joe]

I wresteld today with colors.

Sometimes I back away from my original colors. That's what we did today. I had outlined the letters with a dark muted brown. We are going with black insted. Today was the day to gild but that didn't happen. We are still looking to Thursday for installation


J
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[rookie432]

Letters sure look smooth Joe. That border line also looks crisp. What's your basecoat color for the letters before gold?

Bill

[joe]

B.

The brilliance of gold depend on a couple of factors. First is surface smoothness.
Second is the tack of the varnish. The closer the size is to absolute dry, the higher the sheen. If the size-varnish reaches a point where the it's too dry, you'll have to start over.

The slower sizes are less critical about the time for gold application. I prefer LeFranc 12 hour size.

My favorite prep for letters is High Build Primer. This is a special auto body primer which will cover a host of imperfections. It's lacquer based and dries very fast. Once dry and sanded with 300 grit, I top coat with a catalized auto paint. Any color of yellow or gold will do.

A too bright, or mirrow look, can look kind of cheap. I call it Barbi Doll Gold.

I prefer a smooth velvety sheen. Not too bright or flat.

Hope this helps.

J

[kerrazy]

Crumley,
Your gettin' under my skin, startin to become another Swathisname.....
Love Dale

[kerrazy]

for those interested in gilding, I have assembled a few photos of the items and tools I use when guilding

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The flat brush is used to transfer Loose leaf to the surface it will be applied


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There are many differenmt sizes available on the market, but Joe and I do use the same Brand Charbonnel Lefranc size from France. It comes in 3 hour and 12 hour cure times. Also there is a pint of 1Shot chrome yellow I mix into my size to help cover any voids and it allows me to see where the size has been applied as it is clear in colour.

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This image shows both loose and patent leaf. I use Italian 23K loose or patent leaf for any exterior signs. Loose leaf I use for incised or prismatic letters and patent for any flat smooth surfaces.

I hope this clears some questions up for those interested.
Cheers,
Dale

[kerrazy]

Also I dust the entire sign face with a clay powder before applying the size, so stray gold leaf does not stick where I don't want it too.

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[joe]

Ha Ha

I'm gonna tell Dan what you said. You better take it back.

Or Else.

Joe

[john_r]

Hey Joe and Dale,
How do guys apply your 1-shot enamel?

[kerrazy]

I use lettering quills to apply the size, joe probably uses a magic wand that he created in his shop, cause he's so magical...LOL
Just for clarification, I only mix in a drop or two of the 1shot with the size, as i don't want to rduce so much as I want to tint it.
Dale

[kerrazy]

For those of you who do not know, Joe and I get along fine, we talk almost weekly on the phone and he is truly inspiring to me, but don't you dare tell him I said that. As for the reference to Dan swahatshiname go and check out http://www.imaginationcorporation.ca/ for some more inspirational work. Mark Joe's words, this guy will take CNC routing to the next level as far as marketing and sign crafting with it goes.

Dale

[gene]

What do you use to seal the hdf for outside use.
If tried this in less than a week it would swell up to look like a mushroom. Gene

[kerrazy]

HDF? Either MDF or HDU.
HDF will never swell up, it is an inert product. MDF on the other hand wil swell like a belly full of raw oatmeal when it gets wet. Try Joe's Epoxy wash method or some have suggested a shellac wash. Ensure you are leaving at least 24 - 36 hours between coats, of all coatings. if not the moisture gets trapped, and will find its wait out in the form of a bubble on the first few hot days.

[kerrazy]

A real good test I like to do to ensure it is dry between coats is an intial fell by hand and see if it is clammy to the touch. THen I sand and if there is any residue in my sand paper or balling on the surface then I know I need to find something else today for a few more hours.

[wildspray@frontiernet.net]

Has anyone tried the alsa corp paint for chrome and different effect painting. I have not tried it and have thoght about it. www.alsacorp.com (http://www.alsacorp.com)

[gene]

Dale ,
The immaginationcoorporation, who does that ?
Where are they located and how much does the bot have to do with theese cool creations? Stuff like that facinates me i guess i'm leting ihe kid come out of me (44) . I always heard you had to get old but you don't have to grow up.
Gene Rhodes

[joe]

Gene,

That would be Dan Sawatsky, who is a very creative artist, part of a group of special people called the Letterheads. They use all media including routers. Dan has just purchased his first CNC, not a bot, and his work is stunning.

I've posted some of his first examples without his permesion, hope he doesn't mind. These were done on cheeeepy pink foam, all rendered in 3D.

His studio is someplace out in the wild blue yonder, on a ranch, in BC.

He's one of the most positive persons around.

Joe
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[rookie432]

If you guys don't already know about letterheads and want to see more masterful work like Joe and Dale's go to www.letterhead.com (http://www.letterhead.com) and click on "bullboard" then chose the portfolio page. On default it will only show last two days worth of posts but if you look up in the right hand corner you see a dropdown menu that will let you drill down into the last 10-20-60+ days worth of posts. The art and craftsmanship is both intimidating and (more importantly so) inspiring!
A nice feature is that the site has a section for tips and tricks as well as walkthroughs like this thread on how they create certain projects. A wealth of knowledge without a doubt.

Bill

[joewino]

Joe - some of Sawatzky's earlier practice samples were done in cheap foam, but the ones you have shown were done in 20# HDU if I remember corectly.

Either way, you are right - he is a great designer and his work is WAY out of the box.

[joe]

Ray, Thanks for the correction. I'm sure you are right.

The following pix were taken to show our installation process. We use no screws or bolts. I think you can see how the sign locks itself together. We drop a spot of Gorilla glue in and slip it all together. This method holds the post square and keeps the whole thing together.

I'll take a final photo later with the caps and phone # panel.

This is my last post on the step by step process with the Daniel M. Davis project. It was a hoot.

In the future, if I decide to do another step series, it would probably not be done in real time. I'm affraid it stretches the patience of Shopbot and it's viewers. It could be done in, lets say, three posts which would have the steps more condinsed.

Any way it's off to another project.

Thanks for all the E-mails and posts. All you guys are the greatest.

J
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[drodda]

Joe,

Looks great thanks for sharing with the rest of us who might not quite be up to your level of signmaking.

If you could see me I am currently standing and applauding.

[kerrazy]

actually Ray and Joe,
I believe Dan was using 40# Precision Board. Which I didn't even know existed....
Dale

[rookie432]

Joe,

Sign looks great. Thanks for the step by step. Feel free to educate us anytime.

Bill

[joewino]

Dale - you know I'm right! Just admit it.

Precision Board's 40# is as dense as stone and very heavy. According to PB it's mainly used on golf courses or where the sign may get rough treatment. I don't think it would be possible to sand blast it.



I have a sample of it, but have never used it. We do use the 30# some for small cut out letters because it is so smooth and rarely needs sanding, plus it takes paint exceptionally well.

Great looking job Joe. Unique installation method - I'll have to borrow it.

[kerrazy]

Not even 2 weeks as a memeber and already throwin' stones eh Chapman.
For those of you who do not know, Ray is a frequent contributor to many Sign Trade magazines, and forums. We don't actually have proof of him showcasing his work , as he is too penny wise( read cheap) to put up a website, but all his theory seems to make sense. But most armchair athletes make sense too right....
Welcome aboard Ray, and I relish each shot being vollied at me, from masters such as you and Joe.
Oh and I am NOT WRONG!!!! LOL
Cheers,
Dale

[zeykr]

Thanks Joe. Learned a lot. Hope you do another step by step soon!

[billp]

Guys, the 40# Precision board is almost as dense as "Butter board" which is 48#. And actually it CAN be bought in densities up to 110# !!! (Think about carving bowling balls...)I've used that a few times, and as Ray points out above when you get in the 40# and above range it DOES get heavy. It's also dense enough to have broken a few carbide bits on me before I got smart enough to figure out that I had to slow everything down when cutting it.
The good news is that there is little sanding to do if you set up your stepovers very tightly...
The bad news is that pricing seems to escalate exponentially when you start to add density to ANY of the HDU products. I got mine from -www.goldenwestmfg.com (http://www.goldenwestmfg.com) and even as a 'special' (one square foot trial piece) it costs $38 a square foot for the 48# material! Normally it's $50 per square foot...But if you are looking to make "masters" for molds, etc. It's a beautiful material to work with, little curly shavings instead of dust...

[wayneo]

All of this gold gilding has my interest up. Can anyone recommend a good introductory book on gold gilding and provide sources of materials, tools and supplies?

Thanks,

Wayneo

[Mayo]

One of the best books on gold leaf is appropriately titled: Gold Leaf Techniques, by Raymond J Le Blanc.
Or get the updated version by Kent H. Smith. Both available on Amazon.com

[paco]

Is the Kent H. Smith any better than the Raymond J Le Blanc one?

[joe]

Paco,

Didn't know Kent was making a size. I heard he was doing some kind of gilding workshop. I'll contact him and see whats up.

One of the very best gilding sizes is LeFranc. They also make a variety of bole sizes, used for the picture frameing industry. Their standard varnish comes in 3 hour and 12 hour variety. Many gilders mix equal amounts which takes the better qualities of both solutions. That's what I use.

One very good supplier for all the gilding materials is www.letterheadsignsupply.com (http://www.letterheadsignsupply.com) Their # is 1 800-531-3359 Check out their Mica sample package. Noel Webber introduced me to Mica last summer while at a Letterhead workshop in Greece. It's a complement to gold.



Just a note:
Gilding varnish is simular to any refined varnish except for it's drying quality. Most varnish and paint dry by skimming over. Gold sizes have additives which allows it to dry evenly all the way through. This gives a time frame when the gold, mica, abaloni, etc. can be perminently applied.

[joe]

Wayne,

The Le Blanc is a very old book published, I think back in the 50's. It's considered as sort of a bible on gilding.

As good as books may be at describing the process, I don't think this skill can be learned very well by reading. I would look for a local Letterhead person in your region, and get some help. If you need a name just let me know. I'll see if I can find a friend close to you who would help.

Come to Ada Camp and we can do it there.

[gerald_d]

Paco can't believe that a Frenchman's book was improved by an Englishman.

[wcsg]

I have the Kent Smith book too that I got from McLogan Sign Supply $20.00 I think

[wayneo]

Thanks Guys for the tips on the books and supplies.

Books are ordered and I have looked at the supplier's website. Decided to hold off on the supples order until I figure out what I need (from the books).

Any tips on what supplies would be good for a nubie to get started with gilding would be helpful!

Any suggestions or tips as to the best method(s) to use for gilding embossed paper (Stonehenge type)? i.e. apply before embossing or after embossing?

So where do you get the LeFranc sizing?

Thanks again for the help!

Wayneo

[joe]

I purchase most of my gilding suppies from www.letterheadsupply.com (http://www.letterheadsupply.com)

Kristi is very helpful with any question and will give you hints.

Ask about their Smalts and Mica sample kits.

[PVWoodworks]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you Joe and others for all this inspirational info....am a newby...Most helpful thread have read so far..!!!

[PVWoodworks]

Joe, thought of a question. am in land of redwood (still not cheap)and would like to use it and blast like your signage...Any recommends on minimum compressor strengths..have you used walnut shell? or beads, or just good sand?..also sandblast masks? anything is helpful....

[joe]

C.

That should have been www.letterheadsignsupply.com (http://www.letterheadsignsupply.com)

Redwood is my favorite. It must be kiln dried with vertical grain. It's getting difficult to find.

We use Hartco sandblask mask. Be sure to get the High Tac version. Anchor is also very good. I lay it on the,to be carved, panel and do my area clearance. See first photo in this series. I usually go about 1/2" deep. Sandblasting from there is rather simple.

You'll need some serious air to get the job done right. At least 100 CFM with 20-50 fine sand. We use white sand on our final blast.

Use a good respirator.

J