First sign project, advice welcomed

[henrik_o]

Hello all,

This is my first post to the Sign Maker’s forum; we have done various hand carved signs but never anything on the Shopbot, so please be gentle

I have been asked by a local church to price approximately 30 small interior signs plus some larger exterior ones. These are basic signs which tell the name of a room within the church facility, or provide directions. For now, I’ll leave the exterior signs out of this.

The signs are 2-20 letters each (from “WC” to “Församlingsexpedition”), typeface either Trebuchet MS or Foundry Sterling. V-carving. Approximate letter height, 25-30mm (1-1.2 in). For the sake of argument, I will assume a font like Trebuchet MS v-carves easily: I have not done any tests and if I am wrong, please tell me. Signs will be a deep red color, with text in bright white. Shape of sign will be rectangular, and they will probably be mounted directly to the wall using a good quality double sided tape.

My thinking goes something like this, I am a complete novice at the craft of sign making so please point out errors or unnecessary steps.
I will use 8mm Valchromat MDF, the red color, for the sign blanks.

I will v-carve the text into a sheet, machining sign perimeters leaving a 1mm skin. After the sheet is machined, I will seal it with two layers of spray painted two-component acid hardening lacquer (Beckers CareClear NM023). I will then spray paint the white text color with a two component lacquer (Beckers CareTop / Tikkurila Diccoplast or similar). After curing, I will sand the panel (sawed into a few parts to fit) in our long band sander, in order to remove all white lacquer from the surface. Then I’ll put the parts through our wide planer, topside down, to remove the skin. After this follows sanding of sign edges, which are then sealed with at least two coats of CareClear (or similar), finally applying one coat of finish lacquer.

Is this a reasonable approach? What is a good v-bit to use for this kind of work, in MDF? Does Trebuchet MS (and similar fonts) v-carve well?

[jhicks]

Henrick, it appears to me your basic approach is viable. Not sure if I would bother sealing then painting white and then sanding the surface over masking the sheet and carving. So only V carved letters get painted white but there is enough concern about both bleeding into the edges of the V and also masking releasing at edges in cutting if not down very tight to very smooth finish surface you might try the seal,mask, & cut knowing a surface sand might be needed. So consider cutting the V's deeper to account for final sanding/material removal. Im sure you'll get more feedback as everyone has their own comfortable ways to acomplish these so yours may be best for you but try a few techniques until you find the right combination for you.
I generaly try to avoid any unnecessary steps so I would run a sample to try seal (maybe, maybe not), mask, cut, paint, remove mask, sand/plane to release individual parts, seal, finish.
Wide belt sander removal is a viable technique that does work well and allows for larger finish sizes, then break/sand out. Asuming your planer will accomplish the same but what will prevent the parts from flying around in the planer once they are released past the knife? Your vacuum dust collection may grap them or once they pass the cutter head, what will hold them from being vacuumed out of the web?
Maybe tabbing should be one of your considerations if the planer chews any up. It would be a shame to go through all that cutting/ finishing work and then lose them.
Even though we make signs every week, we still find new designs require us to modify how we process them so sample the techniques before comitting an entire sheet to the paint or router.
Good luck, what I've seen of your work is fantastic so I'll be looking for the final process and photos.

[jeff_guinn]

Henrik,Your sealing & painting sequence should work great! Since you will zero off the top of the semi finished surface, you will only need to increase your V carve depth by the amount removed when you sand the surface.Using a V bit geometry steep enough to produce a small flat bottom area when the max depth of cut is limited in your software(VCarve Pro,Insignia)will help insure that even the finest details are deep enough to remain after surface sanding.I always remove the bottom skin using 40/50 grit on my wide sander.

[joe]

Henrik,

Good to see your interest with signs. Perhaps it would be more effecient to get direct help from a good accomplished sign artist in your area.

There are too many tips and trick in this trade to go very deep into any of them. I'd look for local signs which have the qualities you appreciate, and go to that person for assistance.

Look forward to see how you do.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[henrik_o]

Thank you all for your kind and helpful replies. I feel better about this project after reading them.

I will do some tests once I get my Valchromat samples, more comments are welcomed.

Again, thank you and I'll be sure to post about my progress and/or final result.

[signtist]

Henrick, I would cut all the blanks first. Then paint. Then apply masking vinyl and cut the letters into the blank, then paint the letters with a soft fitch, then pull the tape.
Just my 2 cents.

[joe]

Hey John,

Lets not forget about making out the invoice and collecting too.

Joe

[jhicks]

When its all said and done I would submit that your last concern will be the bot or cut time. Rather design and finish time add up far more quickly not to mention the typical back and forth with the customer or designer. So this example will absolutely tell you IF you want to make signs and What it takes so document it well and next time think about what it should be sold for. as Joe says, it's the invoice that counts. Make it worth your while and be the premium sign maker you are capable of being.
Knowing what it really costs and how to sell that premium quality work is the key to fun, happiness, and a reasonable margin.

[jamesgilliam]

Jerry is right about the back and forth with the customer, especially if they don't have a clear idea of what they want. My last two jobs were a snap, what they both wanted the had in either letter head, or their logo. Made our job easier, even with a few changes along the way. If you can, to save time and travel, email some ideas to them, but not too many. Four I think is the right number of choices. Let them suggest changes if needed to their favorite one, then email the virtual sign back to them. Once they agree to it cut and paint a scale model of it to take to the sales meeting. It will show them that you are truly capable of doing it on a large scale.

On invoicing, which is most of the time a real pain, I break it down into materials and labor, I collect material cost before I start cutting. The last job, they waited 10 days before I got the approval to go ahead, while they looked around to see if anyone was cheaper. I was the low bid and the next bid, using my design, was $1500.00 higher. Customer was happy, and I was happy with what I made on labor, and had less than 30 hours on the entire job, including all travel to meetings and get materials, cutting, finishing, and installation.

[henrik_o]

I appreciate the added comments.

I have to say, though, that the Swedish sign scene seems a lot different from the US. There are plenty of shops that will do engraving in metal or plastic, laser, and of course vinyl lettering/logos. However, there doesn't seem to be nearly any that actually rout into plastics or metal, let alone wood, and v-carve -- forget about it. I have spent quite some time searching the internet, and I've found zilch. There isn't any shops that advertise this capability, maybe it could be done anyway, but it isn't marketed.

As such, I more or less have a captive market for this. Their alternative is engraving into metal/plastic, they simply can't get what I offer from anyone else.

Currently, I'm thinking about $100 per sign; with ~30 signs that's about $3000 which should cover my learning curve. Installation is per the hour ($70/h).

They will get one design offered, with a choice of two typefaces. Pretty much a take it or leave it deal, if they want more options they'll have to pay for the design time. I have a working relationship with them since I delivered their entire church interior; church benches, chairs, knee-fall, the whole kit.

Yeah, if anyone of you feel your market is kinda cramped, move over here to little Sweden.
Signage is really in its infancy here, if you can do what's normal in the US market you could make money hands over fist here.

[jamesgilliam]

I would love to move there, but it just gets too cold there for me. Besides all the grandbabies are here and I don't want to risk grandchild withdrawl.

You say you are thinking $100 per sign, how big are they for that price?

James

[henrik_o]

Ya, it's pretty cold in the winters.

Size of signs is 100 mm (4") height, width variable depending on lettering (mean width approx. 200mm).

These are very basic signs, just a rectangle with some v-carved text on it.

Do you think I'm asking too little?

In other news, the Valchromat samples arrived today. They look really good, the Red variant is almost exactly the one I was looking for. It seems like a good material to machine as well and appears to be very stable (they claim +30% density, it feels like more).

Tomorrow I will go and scope out the scene; we have some installations of lighting fixtures to do there and they've also asked us to give an offer for redecorating the sacristy plus making a side altar, so it's billable time. I'm thinking of giving them an offert (don't know the name for that in English, it means a priced proposal) at the end of the week.

How do you sign professionals 'proposition' the customer, so to speak?

My thinking is that I will give them an economic document with a detailed price plan, I will also give them a roll of double-sided tape and printouts of all signs involved on thick paper; they can cut those out and use them to decide on exact placement. Add one sample of valchromat with two letters on it, and that seals the trap.


Maybe that's overdoing it, but I kind of think if they actually get to cutting those out and starting preliminary placement, it will be a done deal.