ECabinets & ShopBot Link

[Gary Campbell]

The other thread was getting long.

Dan...
Here is a link where you can download the manual: http://www.ecabinetsystems.com/ecabinet_systems_shopbot_link.htm
Gary

[Gary Campbell]

As we beta test this software "Link", there seems to be little or no real problems. There have been some minor reordering of callups for our custom files used for toolchanging and parking the gantry between sheets. These "rewrites" of the software have been completed by Thermwood in very short order, once notified.

On ShopBot's side, additional commands have been added to the control software to enhance our ability to cut (faster and better), and use any or all of our existing axes and accessories. This includes adding commands that allow users of the SB OEM drill setup to only use air when actually drilling. This will reduce the air requirements greatly for those with all but the largest of compressors in their shops.

ShopBot also has in development a provision for single axis users that will allow safe manual toolchanges and rezero during an eCabs/SB Link cutting file. This will include both software and hardware upgrades. The ability to use multiple tools, even for single axis users, will be a great addition for those of us that have been using vector based CAD/CAM software packages and saving each tool to a separate toolpath.

I have found that I am able, in my few short weeks with the eCabs software, to design any method of cabinet construction that I could imagine fairly easily by changing parameters on the free libraries offered for download on the eCabs site. I am also looking forward to the next few months and the online training to increase my skills with the program.

In my opinion, and I have no idea how many of you are out there, if you have eCabs experience, are cutting with a ShopBot, and build the cabinets that you design using it (eCabs), getting the ShopBot Link is a no brainer. Adding your desired joinery to the display grade boxes will be a one time investment in substantially reducing your machining and assembly time. The parametric abilities of this package have caused me to realize that with proper input, cabinet parts can be cut more accurately than by using trdaitional methods that require assembly of some portions of the cabinet before measurements of another can be made to allow cutting. Having learned my cabinetmaking in this way, and practicing the craft for 3 decades has made this the largest obstacle for me personally to overcome. It now seems to make sense that modern methodology should accompany our modern equipment to fully take advantage of its capabilities.

Using traditional methods, and depending on the hardware configuration, we usually had around 3 hours in cutting, assembling and installing hardware in the typical frameless cabinet, 4 for a faceframe version. Our first cabinet designed and cut using the eCabs/SB Link combination was a frameless version and had a total of 40 minutes of time, not counting refinish. This is a substantial reduction of labor. Whether your own, or that of your employeees, a conservative estimate would be a labor saving at or exceeding 50%. This has allowed us to add an economy line that has been received well and we should be cutting one of these jobs in the near future.

There is a great difference between simply cutting parts on a CNC machine and adapting the nested base machining process. Even tho the large box cutters that we have all cursed as custom cabinetmakers have given the process a "bad name" in our eyes thru the use of low quality materials and cheap product lines, there are some things we ShopBot owners can learn from them.

Some of these things that I have learned are:

We as cabinetmakers dont have to sacrifice any quality, anywhere in our work. In fact, we may find that we can raise the quality of our joinery with little or no additional effort.

That where I used to think that I could cut rectangular pieces on the slider faster, and for a couple I still can, that on a job basis, having to recut just a few will cause losses in both time and materials costs and negate the savings.

That using joinery such as mortise and tennon blind dadoes are more accurate and results in better tighter joints than full dados, and are faster to machine. Variations in plywood thickness' no longer affect the joints appeal. We have been able to apply this joinery to our solid wood, face frame and edgbanded plywood framless cabinet lines.

That one of the biggest time saving operations is drilling hardware holes. This, along with predrilling assembly screw holes has saved us immeasurable time and has added very consistant fits to our door and drawer assemblies.

That the advanced toolpath abilities of the SB Link have taken our machine to a higher level of performance. Our previous files were cut using templates placed on sheets and toolpathed using CAD/CAM software with haphazard parts cutting order.

That the parametric speed settings in the Link allow us to cut at almost double the speed we previously did, as the software will slow the bit where needed, based on our part sizes.

That we can now cut smaller parts than we used to, due to automatic additions of tabs or onionskin based on parts size.

I am sure there are many features that I have not listed, and hopefully some of the other guys cutting parts with the Link will chime in with their favorites.

In any event, there does not seem to be any downside to this exciting new combination. Return on investment should be measured in days or weeks rather than months or years. It may also save you, as it did us, from purchasing a $20K+ software package.

Sorry for the long post, but as you can tell, I am excited. Excited both for what we have gained, and for what those gains will do to help insure our survival in these trying times. So, if you were waiting for a report back from the testers before you put some of your eCabs files into your ShopBot, words out, IT WORKS!
Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

Glad to see someone else is as excited as I am with what the Link gives us ShopBot owners.

With the true parametric capability of the software I find the best feature is the ability to cut cabinets from any material without any design changes.
From plywood at .715" to double sided laminate at .825" the same cabinet files can be used without a concern for things fitting or a row of cabinets growing.
Simply correct your material thickness before you post (generate a TWD file) and you are done.
The software is smart and very accurate.

If you want to edgeband the bottom of the sides of a frameless wall cabinet and have if flush out to the deck, simply add an inset number when designing the cabinet.

If you are building an island with a finished 3/4" back and 2 finished ends, use blind dado construction and inset for the edgebanding and just glue it together. Everything fits and no fastners to try to hide.

The more you use the software the more you will find what it will do for you.

Before I could cut with the software I found the 3D color renderings were a very powerful sales tool and used the software for that only.

[beacon14]

Hey Gary, welcome to the real world of CNC!! Not to divert your thread but rather to reinforce it, I have found the exact same list to be true with CabinetVision. Of course I spent the $XX thousand bucks before the eCabs link came out, but I don't regret it. Seven months later, I'm exploring the customizable features of CV - last night I wrote a short piece of code to automatically apply a picture frame molding to any part while at the same time creating info boxes where I can specify the side, bottom and top margins of the molding. I assume you will be able to do something similar in eCabs? Of course, any moldings used in the job are added to a report so I can see at a glance how much molding to make or buy.

I totally endorse the concept that for anyone making or wanting to make cabinets with a ShopBot, the eCabs link is the way to go, if you are not already using a similar software package, even if you have to start from scratch learning the software. I had gotten to the point where I could cut parts out all day but it would take me a week to draw enough parts to keep the machine busy for a day. Now the tables are turning and I can build a job on the computer quickly and easily, check everything visually, check the parts list for any anomalies, and start making sawdust.

The combination of capable software and a properly equipped shop have put the fun back into cabinetmaking for me, and like you said, allowed me to make money on jobs I would have had to pass on previously, not to mention sell more jobs with the professional looking presentation.

It's easy to understand your excitement!

[Gary Campbell]

David...
No hijack going on here. The best thing I could do is get ANY relevent info to anyone needing professional grade software to take product from screen to machine.

Can you let us know what type of drawing output is available with CV? Many commercial guys need to have 2D elevation, plan and section views to submit as shop drawings for approval. How well does CV deal with this?

Due to embedded Autocad, Microvellum does this well, but is not a one button click operation. One must have a profficient Autocad operator take the 2D output and then add dimensions etc for submittals. Microvellum also has an advanced toolpath engine similar to what I have experienced using the SB Link. It also has many other extremely powerful features and many expensive ones also. The version that I saw demo'd was over $40K. The owner of that software thought that it was a bargain, as he was paying under $700 per month for software that was increasing his production by $8-10,000 per month.

Shop drawings and/or submittal grade 2D output is a weakspot with the eCabs software. Even tho it will design as easily and fast as any, and machine better than most, you will still need to generate 2D shop drawings outside the program. This is a rare condition for us, and we will make the 2nd application work for the few times a year we are required to submit this type of drawings.
Gary

[nat_wheatley]

I've been using E-cabinets and the Link, in metric, to cut my cabinet parts, and have been very pleased. Zero issues so far with the inch/metric conversion. The software nests and machines significantly faster and better than what I've been used to using.

One of the things that's nice, is that once you've set up a cabinet, 'dialed in' to your construction methods, saved it to a library, it's there for good. You get consistant, repeatable results each time you call up that cabinet, the guess work is eliminated. In a short time of using these programs, I have far more confidence in the results than I would expected to have at this point.

I did have several questions when cutting with the Link for the first time. Thermwood answered them quickly. Their forum has been very helpful in terms of learning the E-cabinets component.

If you are using metric, and multiple tools, once you get the correct custom cut files, you'll need to convert these, as they're set up in inches. Fairly easy to do.

Also, as mentioned earlier, you'll need to be using a 'beta' version of the control software. I've used ver.33 sucessfully, but did have several issues with ver. 35.

I owe a sincere thank you to the people at both Shopbot and Thermwood. It's become clear that the software will have a significant impact on the productivity of my business. Thank you for making it available to us, and pricing it very reasonably.

[Gary Campbell]

I have just gone thru my inbox and it appears that there are many questions that ShopBotters would like answers to. I will try and do my best. The following are cut and paste from emails:

One of the most often asked is: "It sounds too good to be true, whats the catch?"
ANSWER: So far there is none, the eCabs deleivers what is promised, and unless you need Architectural Submittal grade shop drawings, or do specialized operations, such as closet systems, there is a pretty good chance that it will work well for you. It appears that closets could be built, but not as easily as with high end offerings with a closet module.

Find out if Gary has a copy of the "Nearly Complete Guide to eCabs" and if so, is it significantly better or useful than the downloadable software manual?
ANSWER: Mine has shipped today, I will let you know. I also plan on signing up for the online training. I am not willing to wait out the learning curve as I did with the OEM design software.

Has it been troublesome to not be able to look into any of the Shopbot files before sending them to the machine for cutting? According to Ryan, the Link doesn’t generate any SBP files, it just talks to the SB3 program directly.
ANSWER: It has not. At first I was very dissappointed that I could not view the files. After watching my machine run, and realizing that there are no user errors (mine) included in the toolpath, this will be no longer needed. In the past I modified files to improve them, I cant think of a way to enhance what Ive seen come thru the Link.

Are you able to run the SB3 software in preview mode so that when initial cutting attempts are going to be performed, they can be previewed first (hopefully using the new Vectric-produced 3D previewer that is in the beta versions of the SB3 code)?
ANSWER: I guess you could, but I have always hated that new previewer. The old 2D was tolerable, but the last time I remember using it was when I was hand coding my Dovetail cutting files. I have run them on the simulator, which is a SB controller card, but I have found that things that work on the previewer or simulator, dont always work in the real world, and I am real world. I think that the 3D exploded view in eCabs is a much more useful tool. It has a level of detail that allows you to see woodgrain inside a 5mm hole. The nest sheets give a very accurate location for every geometric shape on a part. I have never been able to get helpful information from a preview screen for cabinet parts. Art, of course, is different.

Though everyone’s ShopBot is going to cut differently and hold down parts differently, would Gary be willing to do a screen capture of the various SB Link configuration screens so that I can use those parameters as a starting point?
ANSWER: I can, but it is all shown in the Link manual that you can download. This is not a complicated piece of software, it is simply a decoder for the encrypted TWD files that have toolpath and tool parameters that are user definable. Just remember that you must enter your speeds in INCHES PER MINUTE.

Have the people at Thermwood been helpful and responsive? How would they compare to the SB personnel in terms of knowledge and friendliness. Are SB Link users being treated in any way as “second class citizens” due to our lack of Thermwood machinery?
ANSWER: Very helpful and thourough. Their professionalism level is at or above that of the ShopBot Staff, and that is saying a LOT. I have spoken on the phone, by email and in person to Thermwood personnel from Mr. Susnjara, the development team assigned to the link, and owners of multiple machines. I was treated very well by all.

How much activity and information interchange is there on the SB Link forum at Thermwood? How many Botters are actively posting on that hidden forum? Presumably it will be generally available at some point in the future? On a related note, I mentioned to Ted Hall that it would be a good idea to create an SB Link section of the ShopBot forums (but haven’t seen one yet). Perhaps if other more influential people like Gary also asked, they would take care of that.
ANSWER: The private beta forum has had all problems posted on it, with very timely answers from both the Thermwood beta team members and staff. I have seen posts there from most of those that are testing the link. I like the idea of the private forum for beta and can only guess that it wont be public. The eCabs section is every bit as helpfull and open as this forum. I cant say what SB will do, but they usually manage to spoil us.

I believe there’s a hasp/dongle that enables the SB Link software to run on the SB computer?? Does that security key require a network connection to the internet in order to function properly? My SB computer is isolated from my network so I don’t have to populate it with anti-virus software, etc….
ANSWER: The hasp requires no internet connection. If you wish to install eCabs it will have a one time online activation requirement.

Unless I’m mistaken, all cutting bits are probably zeroed to the table so that the thickness of tenons and blind dados can be accurately dimensioned regardless of variations in material thickness. Is that right?
ANSWER: Yes this is correct, and I want to know why I wasnt doing this all along! The Link also outputs exact material thickness to enable cutting any thickness material without a rezero.

Has Gary been using the offall (scrap pieces) functionality of the nesting program, and if so, are you using that in conjunction with label printing. Does the SB Link program have the ability to print labels for cabinet parts, offal, flip part machining, etc?
ANSWER: I have accumlated a few pieces of scrap in the DB, but my label printer and barcode scanner are a few weeks away. Yes, labels, barcodes, different colors for each cabinet label and flip machining all included.

I wonder what extra “load” the SB Link software places on the PC connected to the Shopbot. My PC is not super-powerful nor does it have a lot of memory or processor speed, but it has easily handled large files generated by Aspire and PartWorks. Has anyone mentioned processor/memory minimums for the machine connected to the Shopbot?
ANSWER: Little or no additional resources required. I have a minimal specs PC for my control computer and it works fine. Remember this is just a text file transcoder.

Have there been any issues related to controlling the spindle RPMs via the spindle control board when using the SB Link software. I still have some reliability issues with my spindle control software/hardware, but maybe those are addressed in whatever version of the SB3 software I need to be using in order to run the SB Link software.
ANSWER: The link outputs the same TR,xxxxx command that we are used to with current software. If you have issues now, you will most likely have them with the SB Link, unless the switch to the newer betas works better than the OEM software.

Speaking of SB3 software changes, how frequently have Shopbot or Thermwood been releasing new beta versions of the SB3 software or the SB Link software based on feedback from the beta testing. Is the SB Link software still officially considered to be in beta test, or is it formally released?
ANSWER: We are using version 5 of the Link, each new one ready within hours of a reported bug. We are on the 3rd or 4th beta version of SB3, each one with improvements over the prior. Since I am aware of working, released sold SB Links to other than "official testers", I am assuming this is OEM and ready for the market.

If there are any more related questions, please post them here, as I am sure that others may wish to learn from the answers. Sorry for the length of the post.
Gary

[Gary Campbell]

Last one for the night...

QUESTION:
I think it would be very enlightening for prospective users of the SB Link to see a detailed diagram or flowchart which indicates how the various components of this system work together. I'm a pretty intelligent guy and have about 20-25 hours invested in the learning curve so far, but I'm still not sure I have all the pieces put together correctly. Specifically, it would be nice to see a chart which shows how you start with the eCabs software and create a cabinet design, then save that design as a TWD file (this is the part I still don't understand, since I'm not sure if you use the Nest and CNC function in eCabs, or if you skip them), which is then loaded by the SB Link program, which in turn seems to have "executive level" control over the SB3 software and passes (encrypted?) information to the SB3 program and then on to the machine. I'm an ex-software designer, so I think about this description in terms of a nice one-page flow diagram which shows each module and the information types that flow between them..... Grasping this high level view of the system might make it easier to then learn the individual components.

ANSWER: Once you have a "job", which can be 1 cabinet or 100 to your satifaction in eCabs, you can use the "NEST" icon to see what the sheets and parts look like on each sheet. You can also audit sizes and locations. You may also "filter" out sheets for later cutting, add or decrease the number of any part or parts.

To save the file to a "TWD" file for maching you use the "CNC" icon. This will allow you to save the file to your desired location and name. You also have the option to enter the exact material thicness, which will adjust all sizes, dados, etc to account for the thickness change. This is the file that you can "transfer" to the SB Link.

At the control computer, with hasp in, start the SB Link. Nest parameters should be set. You can then "LOAD" the TWD file into the link. You can apply a filter again if needed to change quantities of parts or sheets. You are now ready to "NEST". Select nest in [X] or [Y].

Tool parameters are set by entering your tool diameters, and selecting the operations that you wish it to be able to do, and the speeds (IPM) that you wish to apply to that tool for that operation. You also have tool parameters that allow reduction for small parts among many others. When this is complete, click "SEND TO SHOPBOT", step 3 steps back and prepare for your jaw to drop!

Note: assume 2nd job with same, correct parameters...

Load, filter, nest.
Send to shopbot
its a 10 second job.

Sorry about the lack of flow charts... woodbutcher here, not computer genius. Nor did I stay at the Holiday Inn Express. The learning curve is in the design area, due to its broad range of options. The learning curve for the SB Link will be similar to toolpathing a 3 or 4 tool job using Partworks, except its harder to make a mistake and the results are much better. (at least for cabinet cutters)

Gary

[benchmark]

Gary,

Thank you for all the feedback, it is very enlightening... you have now become a Writer/Shopbotter.

Do you have any idea what happens if you have a job that will use say 30 sheets of material, by the end of day one you have cut 10 sheets, on day two what action does it require to commence cutting sheet 11 and onwards ?

I agree that eCabinets measured shop drawings and submittal grade 2D output is a weakspot with the software, do you know if there are any plans to upgrage this area .

Many thanks


Paul

[kerry_fullington]

I wanted to throw in a couple of comments about eCabinets addressed in this thread.

Roger,

You don't have to add an inset to allow for edge banding. You can create your edge banding materials in eCabinets in the Define Stock Materials area and then add the edge banding to any of your parts when designing your cabinets. When the edge banding is applied to the part it automatically re-sizes the part to allow for the edge banding and then will give you an accounting of the edge banding material for your job costing. This way you don't have to think about allowing for edge banding.

Paul,

There are plans to improve the line drawing editor to produce 2d drawings but it is really a great tool when you get comfortable using it. There are some tips on using the Line Drawing Editor on the eCabs forum that make it a little more user friendly. I will try to find them and get you a link. Here is a link to some of my line drawings. They will demonstrate how you can show or hide as much detail as you want.
http://www.kerryfullington.com/pdfs/Binder1.pdf

Gary,

I have to disagree with you about the closet systems also. You can design any type cabinet in eCabinets. If you build your library with the correct construction it will produce those cabinets. You create your own "Closet Module"

I would encourage all of you to join the eCabinets forum to voice your concerns and help improve the eCabinets software.

Kerry

[ken_rychlik]

Hey Gary,

I may be "wrong" but you talk to much.

How do you get any work done?

Kenneth

[wberminio]

I've been finding this thread very interesting.

As David B. mentioned above, a professional Cad/Cam
software will change your life as a professional cabinetmaker.I've been using KCD for my design screen to Shopbot cutting.This ability , as David says "The combination of capable software and a properly equipped shop have put the fun back into cabinetmaking for me, and like you said, allowed me to make money on jobs I would have had to pass on previously, not to mention sell more jobs with the professional looking presentation.

It's easy to understand your excitement!"
He right! I'm enjoying the process again!
And it is fun!
I'm planning on giving a simple demo of KCD at my Camp next week.The software is different,but the principle is the same.

BTW I have a copy of Ken Susnjara's Book "The New Furniture" It explains the his ideas about CNC and its relation woodworking,using ecabinets in particular,any software in general.
It's a good easy read for all of us plugging away in our shops

[thewoodcrafter]

Kerry,
You are right about adding edgebanding.
I don't do it to the entire cabinet because it seems to eat up too much of my computers resources.
So I just add it to selected areas. Also my library has been setup from before edgebanding and I have insets set up.
After I upgrade sometime this year I should be doing that.

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
Thanks for the correction. I will be the first to admit my limited experience. My comments regarding the closets were my "off the cuff" comparison between "the system" as explained by David Buchbaum regarding Cabinet Visions Closet Module. When you "drop" for example a full height panel next to a bank of drawers, the drawer bank side is removed and the RTA joinery machining is applied to the proper side of the panel. Last weekend in Houston I tried to ask this same question of Michael Kowalczyk, and it appeared to me that, even tho it is possible as an assembly, the task was not quite as "automated".

I will pose the same question to you. Based on your experience, which I already know is vast, are there features that allow this type of parametric assembly building, especially as it would apply to the custom closet makers, included in eCabs? To be specific, I am not speaking of adding a correct component that has the machining defined, but that the placement actually defines the machining parameters, and those parameters are applied to the proper components of the system.

Pardon, if I have misunderstood the operation as David B. has described it, if I have erred, perhaps he can clarify.

This is not meant to be a negative comment towards eCabs, simply pointing out a difference. None of the $20K+ packages are the same, the fact that we are even comparing a free design program to these high end offerings is amazing.
Gary

[Gary Campbell]

Paul...
I believe that you could apply a filter that deselected sheets 1 thru 10 and proceed as normal.
Gary

[scott_vaal]

Paul,

You wrote: "Do you have any idea what happens if you have a job that will use say 30 sheets of material, by the end of day one you have cut 10 sheets, on day two what action does it require to commence cutting sheet 11 and onwards ?"

There is a feature exactly for this situation. You just check on the sheet selection option under setting in the eCabinet Systems Shopbot link. The program will then prompt the operator as to which sheet you want to go to. Just restart the program the next day and select sheet #11 etc. Hope this answers your question.

[woodworx]

I have so many great things to say about the link. When I get some time, I will post my results I had today...12 sheets so far, and 17 more to go on this job!

[kerry_fullington]

Gary,

You are correct that eCabinets does not have the automated functions of CV with User Created Standards and Intelli-joints. I just didn't want anyone to be discouraged from using eCabinets for closet design. I think if someone wanted to focus on closets they could do so by creating a well thought out library of fixtures.

Roger,

One reason I like to place the edge banding on parts is because I can use a different texture for the edge banding and see at a glance that parts do or don't have the banding. If you add your banding to your cabinets then it will also print the banding info on your labels which is a big help for me.

Kerry

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
Considering that there could be over $20K difference in price between the two, I think 90% would go in the eCabinets direction. Myself included. There are some tho, that need those special purpose modules. They are good, but they obviously come at a steep price. Thanks for the clarification.

I looked at the drawings on your site that you posted the link to. Is there documentation that explains the process? And one last question, can we users "cut & paste" these onto our own header page? I know I should be posting these questions on the eCabinets Forum, but since you stopped by, we should put you to work! Thanks for your time.
Gary

[woodworx]

OK. I have some time now.

I had some experience with ecabinets 2 years ago when I was researching CNC's. I bought a library from Kerry (thank you, but they are now free!) Please send my money back Kerry ;)

I never actually designed any kitchens with the software, but basic functions were easy to understand. I was interested in the renderings. They still look great and are a great way to lock down a sale. Not sure if anyone charges right off the bat for the 3D drawings, but I certainly intend to since they do require a bit of time to complete.

Changing cabinet design features becomes challenging, and I wish there was some added features that changes all your cabinets at once. i.e. changing overlay on doors as easy as it is to change the door style itself.

The software becomes easier and easier to use. I would imagine after 2 kitchens or 2 weeks of learning, you can be pretty proficient with the program. You have to be cabinet maker to understand a lot of the functions and features.

The parametric sizing is great, but doesn't do everything. When resizing your cabinets, you must always verify every part of your cabinet to make sure everything did what it was supposed to do. Since my computer is no longer the powerhouse it used to be, the changes took much longer than I expected. You must have a pretty powerful work center computer to use Ecabinets. Don't let the $1300 price tag make you believe that will be the final cost. I now have my design computer at the CNC, and am currently looking for a powerful laptop to do my designing on.

Most of us Shopbotters are working on a limited budget, so this will be an expense I did not think I would incur for a while. No problem though, it is well worth it!

Here is the good part, no I take that back......Here is the great part! The functionality of the link allows you to see your machine perform at optimum levels. I watched my machine pound out 11 sheets today. I need to adjust my setting to machine faster, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't breaking bits through various types of cuts it was going to be doing.

I machined everything with a .25" single flute straight cutter. Can't complain about edge quality, or drill holes. Everything came out great. I did order 2 5mm compression cutters from Centurion last night so I have something for the next job. I will run everything with the 5mm bits once I have them. At $25 a piece, you can't beat the price.

All in all the link is going to be a great addition to the shop. You can't understand how easy it is to produce 1 or 10 cabinets until you use it.

I will post my results as completion of this kitchen comes to a close towards the end of the month. This is an eco-friendly kitchen for a spec house in Cali. The house will be on the discovery channel later this year.

[kerry_fullington]

Justin,

The cabinet libraries are a great way to get started quickly in eCabinets but the best way is still to build your own library. Take the standard upper,base, tall and corner cabinets that are in the software, change all the construction to build the cabinets the way you want to create your own "Seed" cabinets (you have to give this a lot of thought to make sure everything is just the way you want it) then use those seed cabinets to build a library of every cabinet you might ever want to use. By building a library off your own seed cabinets with proper construction parameters you will have a library that also reflects your construction parameters. If you build your Library with all the correct parameters (this will probably require that you get familiar with the constraint manager so that you can make a cabinet retain some measurements) then everything will be correct when you re-size.

If you decide to download a library, the first thing you will want to do is to take each cabinet (around 225 in my libraries) into the cabinet editor and change the construction parameters to match your own. This is actually more time consuming than creating your own library from scratch and leaves more room for mistakes. The other option is to simply build cabinets the way the author of the downloaded library builds. This will get you started immediately.

Using any cabinet design software, the initial setup of the software is the most important thing you do. Don't skip steps to get up an running faster. These skipped steps will bite you later.

Give your software setup a lot of thought and take time to completely learn every part of the software you are going to need to use. Learning it now will minimize the problems you are going to have down the road.

eCabinets is a very precise software but you must enter all the information it needs to operate.

Kerry

[pappybaynes]

Justin,
I would be interested in what you come up with for a laptop. I am in the same situation...but I was just going to build a very robust desktop for designing. If you can get a laptop with a large HD, Tons of Memory, the problem has always been the video card...I am thinking of a video card(s) with at least a GB of memory on the card. Keep us posted.
Dick

[Gary Campbell]

Dick...
One of the problems going with a laptop is the video card and the fact that many, if not most are using "gamer" style video cards rather than workstation professional graphics cards. Not saying there are none out there, but they are going to be pricey.

In my looking around over the weekend, I found lease return dual Xeon workstations with a Quadro FX 3700 card in them for around $400 on eBay, dozens, if not hundreds of them. This same video card is for sale from $599 to $750. If it was installed in a "normal" economy PC, this card most likely will not live up to its potential, especially for a resource hungry App. like eCabs.

To put eCabinets to full use, and to expect reasonable calculation times requires a professional grade workstation computer. The core architecture of the moterboard is much different than a home desktop. The RAM is ECC (error correcting) and they are designed specifically for this type program. eCabs is also designed specifically for this type of computer.

The minimum recommended specs are here: http://www.ecabinetsystems.com/ecabinet_systems_recommended_computer_system.htm

And remember: If you go with minimum specs, expect minimum performance. If you go with a non workstation PC expect less.
Gary

[pappybaynes]

Gary,
I had thought all along that IF I could find a laptop capable of handling eCabinets, it would be very high priced. I have been an AMD processor person for quite some time...any problems with using AMD?? Based on what I think you are telling me, if I want the appropriate performance I should not consider building this computer from a barebones kit from Tiger Direct?? We, (one of my sons and I), have built several for friends and family over the past few years...I gather that if I had a "normal" video card with 1GB of memory and its own processor on the card that it would not perform like the Quadro FX 3700??? I know enough to be dangerous, and my son has a degree in computer science but really from the programing end of things...so we are half blind here. I just don't want to have to spend over a $1000 on a design computer...this is where I think MACs have it all over PCs...I will take all the advice I can get before I make the plunge, which won't be until June.
blessings,
Dick

[ken_rychlik]

Dick, I bought a refurbished dell inspiron 9400 laptop for ecabinets about one year ago. I have been pleased with it. I think it was about 1 thousand for it. The new one with the same specs was twice that at the time. If you search for the dell outlet center you will find them. You can also find one with XP which ecabinets likes better. They come with the same warranty as a new one and offer exteded if you wish.

It has the nvidia graqhics card installed, intel centrino duo, 2 gig ram, T7200 @ 2 ghz processor. Thats about all I can remember.

Kenneth

[Gary Campbell]

Dick...
To the best of my abilities.... please assume I dont consider myself the norm. Please also assume that I will not go anywhere near "minimum specs".

At present I have eCabs running on my AMD 2yr old laptop with Vista OS. All things that are wrong, and by the way, it runs fine, but takes a while to calc up cabinet resizes.(seconds, not minutes or days) I see from watchig the videos that these same operations happen in 1 to 1.5 seconds that take 4 or 5 on mine. I am not planning to change my laptop.

I also built my own systems and I am using a P5 quad with 4gig ram and 2 radeon 256mb vid cards in crossfire mode. a real screamer until I installed eCabs... its slower than the laptop even tho it has double the resources in almost every category. I am now going to build another..a workstation. I would recommend that you do too. I may even get a lease return workstation off eBay with the intel 5000 board and put 2 prior gen quad Xeons in it. Since the whole computer is $200 less than the FX3700 card is retail, I can hardly go wrong.

Read this post: http://www.thermwood.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9240

Search Tom's Hardware for items that compare workstations to home pc's for more insight on Core architecture that allows a workstation to carry out a billion calcs 60% better than a desktop with greater resources. They explain that besides the fact that there is actually more in them, what is in them is higher quality. The basic rule as it applies to our ever decreasing component prices... they can get more for these professional grade motherboards, processors and video cards, because they are worth it!

To answer you one direct question about the video card: From what I have read, NO I do not.

Do your homework, I am sure you will do what is right for you and your budget.
Gary

[pappybaynes]

Gary,
As always, thank you for your continued help! I will start searching out those workstations and components. I will keep you informed of my findings and if you find a deal somewhere let me know.
On a side note I have to say that it amazes my wife that there is so much help on this forum...she and I both believe it is a blessing to us...all of us. Thanks Gary, and everyone who contributes.
Dick

[woodworx]

My wife makes fun of me, and rides me a little bit about reading the forum so much. If I had to read all of this info in a book I would have fallen asleep last year and never would have woke up.

I just got my 5mm compression bits from Centurion. They have a 1/4" shank, and they are very sharp. I will be ordering all my bits from them now. These are nice. I only have a single head so this will be the bit I do all my milling with on ecab.

It will take me a while to find the right laptop. I'll find one that works great, and I am am not willing to pay a boat load for it.

[pappybaynes]

Justin,
I have been known to print off a topic and take it to bed to read!! I am getting like the kids, I can read the forum, watch the Redsox and pretend I can hear my wife speaking to me.

Gary,I have been doing my homework and getting pretty excited about having a machine as powerful as the workstations you mentioned...

[Gary Campbell]

For those that prefer to use the climb/conventional/onionskin method for outline parts cutting, this is now supported by the ShopBot Link. For us, this allows us to increase profile speeds from 6 ips to 8 or possibly more and retain great cut quality.
Gary

[woodworx]

My edgebanding guy was wondering why my edges were slightly beveled. I am getting some bit deflection with 2 passes. The single pass stuff is fine, but the new release should help with this problem. It was only deflecting .01". Stupid SCMI piece o junk. I think he just needs a better machine!

[thewoodcrafter]

Sounds like he needs to adjust the pressure rollers.
I don't think I could tell I had a .010 bevel with my edgebander.

[woodworx]

I cut some 1/4" backs yesterday and some 3/4 the day before. It seems if that if set my max size on my double pass to 250^2 or 500^2, it skips some parts? Why does it interpret my settings like this. When I make this setting larger i.e. 10000^2 it will cut everything, but does a double pass, even on 1/4" material. This is a time waster.

[thewoodcrafter]

Justin
What do you have for cutting depth in the tools data base?

You should post this on the Link Beta forum. Larry wrote it so he is the expert.

[Gary Campbell]

Justin...
You will need to set your parameters for the double pass to a number that is less than the area of the backs to allow them to cut with a single pass. Remember that you are instructing the software to cut with 2 passes, that is why it does this on 1/4". In a perfect world, we would have thickness parameters too!

I too have been looking for that magic number that would allow me to get my double pass on all 3/4" parts but ignore 1/2 and 1/4 back pieces. I thought I had it around 740"^2 but then I got burned by the back on an 18" DB.

I agree with Roger... post on the beta forum and see if Larry has some insight towards this.
Gary

[robert_prerovsky]

How shopbot link handle double side machining,if you have multiple parts? i know it is ease design cabinets for 1 side machining,but some cabinets in the library are 2 sided.Thank you

[thewoodcrafter]

Two sided machining is handled very well.
Very well thought out.
At the end of all sheet cutting you are prompted for the "serial number" of the flip operation pieces. The program assigns these numbers to the pieces that need 2 sided work. You then can place it anywhere on the table, based on the values you have in set up, for machining. Usually placed at 0,0 with the label down and the piece flipped ccw. I have a fixture and pop up pins to place my flip op pieces at 1.5, 1.5.
After that you are asked for another and another till all are completed.
The "serial number" of these flip op pieces is printed on the label. You set these pieces aside while you are working through the sheets. When asked just start with any piece.

[loriny]

I am running a prt 96 with 4g upgrade and a 3.5 milwaukee router. I have got a couple jobs which I drew up in Ecabs and am thinking I might make the move to this link. Does any one know if it is ready to do the furniture in the libraries as this is what I hope to use it for mostly. Also will I be able to cut the 3D legs and posts with my indexer (lathe with stepper)
Or would I be better off to look at upgrading to a spindle first? I cut now with a 5mm compression bit and would hope to just use this for the cabinetry.
Lorin

[thewoodcrafter]

Lorin,
The Link does not support the indexer.
I do not know if it will do any carving but other than that it will cut the library furniture.

[loriny]

I got my link and am just curious if I should save all my settings to my laptop,my design computer or a flash drive?? Haven't yet started. hopefully in the morning.
Lorin

[thewoodcrafter]

What 'settings' are you talking about?
You need to install the Link on the computer that runs the Bot.

[loriny]

tool and machine settings. This must just go on laptop I run Bot with. Nesting will occur on it then I presume. I will be trying it right away.
Thank you.

[loriny]

loaded to laptop. Seems good. I am missing something though. Whan I nest my job it only nests one of the sheet choices and nests them. Then when I try output to Bot I get a tool size error. "tool size between 0.625 and 0.313 not set up in tooling". I assume this is for my dadoed backs(5/8" x 1/16 deep.) I did set up my 5mm(.1969) in the tooling for the dadoes as well as for every other operation). My confirmation always shows no pocket tool but I can't figure out how to choose this. I will keep trying and if I figure it out I will post.
Thank you
Lorin

[thewoodcrafter]

Lorin,

That error message is because you are trying to cut a dado that you don't have a tool for. I just found out yesterday that the software will not pocket. If your tool is less than 1/2 the width of your dado you will get that error. Pocketing is NOT supported.
I was trying to cut a 3/4" full width dado and got the message because I only have a .25" bit.
I told the programmer on the Beta site that this was a big problem for machines without tool changers (ShopBots).

What is your problem with nesting?

[loriny]

When nesting I get only one of the sheet selections (4 sheets 5/8 maple from job) I don't get the rest of the job (4 more types of materials) showing in the sheet selection.
Thank you
Lorin

[Gary Campbell]

Lorin...
Have you added those material types to your tool group?
Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

You are talking about nesting in the Link right?

You get a pull down for the sheet number. Click on it and you can go to any sheet and view it.

Did find another problem yesterday. I could not get the backs to nest in the whole job. Had to select them separate and nest them as a separate job. They are fixing this right away.

[loriny]

Gary. I hadn't done this but I did now. I still get the same results. It nests the maple but nothing else.
Roger I am redoing the cabinets in the job to have blind dado backs instead of full dadoes. The drop down box only contains my 4 maple sheets.
I appreciate the help you guys are giving, especially as it is the weekend
Thank you
Lorin

[loriny]

If I manually filter each material it will nest. When I choose all materials in the job it won't. I can choose the whole job except these 5/8 maple sheets and they will nest.
Lorin

[thewoodcrafter]

This sounds like the bug I found yesterday.
Just filter and nest separate till they fix this.

[loriny]

will do.
Thank you

[loriny]

Does anyone else have trouble with grain shelves nesting the grain the wrong way? Is there anything to do about this?
Lorin

[Gary Campbell]

Lorin...
You may want to post eCabinets specific questions on the eCabinets Forum. Along with a bunch of good guys over there, the software team monitors the forum. If you have found a glitch, posting over there will shorten the turnaround on a fix, if not there are many more eCabs users there than here.
Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

Lorin,
Gary is right. Questions about using the software would be best asked on the eCabinets Forum.
Many very helpful guys.

But -
You must not have grain set up right on your shelving material. Make sure you have this set up right in the materials data base.
Problems with grain direction have been fixed long ago. I think this is a user problem.

[loriny]

I may have just been mistaken on dimensions when looking at nest. I have some deep skinny uppers that may have thrown me off. Thank you
I hope to get cutting tonight finally.
Lorin

[Dennis Englert (Unregistered Guest)]

By default, grain for shelves runs with the length of the shelf. I'm thinking that it is nearly impossible to get the grain to run fore and aft by mistake. You can designate the grain direction when you place the shelf or edit the shelf and change the grain direction.

As suggested by someone else, if you post these questions on the eCabinet Systems forum you will usually get a quick response from our user base. They've been extremely helpful to all and have embraced the ShopBot community.

Dennis L. Englert
Manager of Product Training
Thermwood Corporation

[loriny]

Got cutting and printed nest sheets. Everything was good. Had some troubles with settings but talked to Ryan @ Shopbot and Dan @ thermwood. These guys are excellent. Dan took my files and within an hour had my setting problems figured out on my link. Very little down time with help like them and this forum. If anyone is considering the link I whole heartedly recommend it.
Lorin

[thewoodcrafter]

The support for the product is just great.

I am still amazed I am cutting eCabinet files on my ShopBot.

This definitely makes ALL other software options completely obsolete.


Dennis,
Are you going to have any training classes in Las Vegas next month? I think you have a whole new group to teach.

[englert]

Roger,
Unfortunately, we are not this year. You are only the second person to inquire that I'm aware of and we need a minimum of 15 registered to conduct the seminar. It's a pretty expensive endeavor at these venues.

A viable alternative and it probably has replaced the 3-day seminar option is our Online Video Tutorials. Costs a little more, but then does it really by the time you include travel and all the other related costs. The 3-day course is a crash course; fast paced and non-stop. The videos you can watch and rewatch at your leisure, plus you can train more than one. I've put a lot of work into these. Probably not perfect, but they've received good reviews as well as the training manual, "The Nearly Complete Guide to eCabinet Systems". At a little over 600 pages, it has expanded quite a bit from my early documentation. More pictures, I know that most of us only look at those anyways.

BTW are you going to the show?

Good to hear from you,

Dennis

[thewoodcrafter]

I will be going.
Any excuse to go to Las Vegas is a good one.
I think Brian Kerns and I will be hanging out together again.
I'll stop by and say hello.

P.S. Glad to see you are an official registered forum member now.