Pushed Through letters.

[hollygolightly]

I need to create a pushed-through logo out of 1/2" clear acrylic. It needs to be backed with white 1/8" acrylic. The problem I have is how to attach the clear to the white without any glue or tape creating splotches or spots. This clear logo has NO vinyl on the first surface. It is clear from front to back. Unfortunately in this instance, pocket routing is not an option for me. Can anyone help me out? Thanks!
Thanks!

[signtist]

Use a white translucent vinyl on the back. This is what its made for.

[signtist]

Paula, use translucent white vinyl on the back. This is what it is made for.

[bleeth]

I am shortly needing to do the same thing myself. I think the 1/8" Paula is talking about serves 2 purposes and only one of them is to render the backs of the letters translucent. The other is to have as much of the letter sticking through the front of the sign as possible and use the 1/8 inch to secure the letters in place.
Although pocketing is preferred that would reduce the push through quantity and stepping up to 3/4 acrylic is quite a hit in the pocket.
There was a thread recently about gluing clear Acrylic without bubbles. Basically it was use enough adhesive to be able to squish the joint around to clear the bubbles. Obviously that won't work on push through letters.
Paula: Can you use the translucent white vinyl as John suggests and adhere the letters to the field from the back with clear silicone adhesive?

[mklafehn]

They make an optically clear mounting adhesive specifically for face mounting digital prints to clear acrylic. I have used it to mount 4'x8' face mounted graphics and it works beautifully. The only gottcha is it must be applied to the substrate with some pressure or you will get air bubbles. And I have never tried routing with the material already in place. I might try that however, since it might have an application for some of my customers.

[hollygolightly]

Dave and John...

The primary purposes of the "white backer" are to provide the white color effect behind the clear log AND to hold the pushed through logo in place.

As for the suggestion of using white vinyl... are you saying that I should apply the vinyl to the 2nd surface of the clear logo and then somehow attach the logo to the white backer? Would the two be able to be "glued" together with vinyl in between them? Also, wouldn't I still have the same problem with glue spots?

Ideally, I would pocket rout a clear piece and just apply white vinyl to the back and be done with it but... I cannot pocket rout in this instance.

Some type of clear adhesive made for acrylic to acrylic applications would be wonderful, but I think this is going to be a tough one to solve.

Thanks guys!

[bleeth]

Paula: Could you do your laminating before carving the Logo? Then of course you would use a pocket strategy and be able to work the Acrylic to remove the bubbles. Tap plastics has this PDF about laminating on line:

http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/Product%20Bulletin%202.pdf

I also found this adhesive online:

http://www.haziza.com/fusion/fusion.htm

Here is a company with USA distribution that sells laminated sheets but they may have minimums that are large-most custom acrylic sheets do need that:

http://www.reynoldspolymer.com/Materials/R-Cast-Laminate.html

You might also try 3-form remnants-never know what is there.

It better be solvable-I may need to do a bit of this myself shortly.
Mike: What is the product name of the laminating adhesive you use? Does someone like Fellers carry it?

[mklafehn]

Fellers doesn't carry this material. Here is a link to the material I get from Kapco. It is rather expensive, but when mounting items that must remain perfectly clear this is the best solution.

As I mentioned, I have not tried routing with this material. The release liners are a type of clear acetate and may not hold up well. I am not at the shop right now, but I can check later and see how much of this material I have.

Paula, I may be able to send you a small section so you can try it. I will let you know later today.

https://www.kapco.com/cms/site/cd78d3343dd9b1f2/index.html

[dakers]

Paula, the following probably does not apply to what you are doing. i am just posting something we have done. we have been applying various new technology vinyls to the top of the clear 1/2'' push through. We only do this with back lighted aluminum cabinet signs and some channel letters. the object is to have the light flood out the side of the clear and create a halo effect which is pretty cool. they even have vinyl that appears black during daylight hours then when you back light it at night it turns white. Most of our push throughs are installed using a stud welder on the back of aluminum face. Never have them become dislodged that way. We use a full backing sheet over all the letters. Again this does not sound like it meets your needs but just wanted to post another option for future for someone.

[jerry_stanek]

I just did a push through logo. It is .75 clear Plexi with red vinyl on the face rear lit with leds. pushed through .25 mdf with white p lam on it. The black letters are 12mm komatex with led mounted to the back and with .75 stand offs.
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[bleeth]

Mike:
Since that actually comes out to about $1.70/sq ft., to me the only drawback is having to buy a whole roll. If it solves the issue for Paula and me I don't need nearly that much and have no idea when I would need it again.

Dick: Doesn't a stud welder leave a dimple on the face of the sign from the heat? If you used a full backing sheet I presume the backing sheet is drilled for the stud location. What do you use to adhere the letters to the backing sheet?

Jerry: Did you do the Logo as a pocket routed job so it's all actually one piece?

I'm also wondering if you polish the visible edges of the pushed through parts.

Doing any signage is new to me and these types of signs are appealing since I am a lousy painter!
The ones I am doing now are part of the millwork package for the stores we are doing (GC didn't want to handle multiple subs) and all the push through lettering is white. I explained the additional expense of polishing the edges to the client and he is OK without doing it, but I can see if the letters are clear the look unpolished could be quite different from polished.

[dakers]

Dave, here is an example of some internal illuminated systems with push through we did for John Carroll University. Also another sign we did that just has plex backing. The stud welder, studs, aluminum thickness and hardness of aluminum you work with have to be considered when you purchase the stud welding system. If you work with .125 alum. and 6000 series alloys you would select a stud welding system to match that without dimpling and t there are settings to allow you to adjust the heat, etc.
it is not worth getting unless you do alot of channel letters and push throughs. You can google stud welders to find more info.
we use Lords Adhesives for alot of aluminum bonding. http://www.lord.com/
we use Weld On adhesives for gluing plastic.

Typically signs are viewed from a distance and not up close so you have more latitude with signs than you would point of purchase displays and exhibits.

As a side note: if you notice the blue letters north canton medical foundation. They insisted on blue but because of the thin stroke they really do not show up that well at night. The John Carroll project was interesting. for the top we had extrusion custom rolled. the lighting system is like a drawer that just slides down because they did not want any access or hardware on the faces. So many details to work out. I can't remember all of them.


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[dakers]

At the time we built these we had approx. 27 employees and they all had different gifts and abilities. My only personal involvment was designing the prototype we made to sell the John Carroll job and researching things for my son who sold the job. We had people who were experienced in other areas.
Learning curves can kill you fast. At the time we only had a building with 10ft ceilings and no overhead crane. You do what you have to do but it is not without alot of stress. My wife and i started the business in 1972 but a few years ago we gave the business to my son because i just did not have a vision for electric signs and he certainly did as he loves sales and is very gifted at sales. I went in another direction and started 2 other sign business with my wife and daughter and a few friends. You can visit how my son is marketing his electric sign company at www.akerssigns.com (http://www.akerssigns.com)
they are now in a huge building and have amazing capability for aluminum fabrication.

I just want to do lots of design, hand lettering, my friend from high school will run the router and design, my daughter will run the vinyl sign dept. which consists of wide format printing, laminating, heat seaming vinyl banners. 3 other nice ladies to help my daughter. So i am actually going backwards in business so i can do all that i do with all my heart and not be too spread out.
i am now 61 years old.

[bleeth]

Well Dick you only have a year or two on me and I would sure like to be giving up the rat race doing only what I love best by then. But I do still like learning new things and this bit of a plunge into acrylic and aluminum signage has been a lot of fun. Couldn't have done what I did so far without the bot and good advise from others. Your help and tips are greatly appreciated.
One of the signs I may have to pull off soon (if the client doesn't choke at the price) Is a suspended blade sign and I know there will be some more challenges in forming the aluminum.
Checked out the sites of some of the products you have suggested and they opened up whole new concepts!!

Thanks again;

Dave

[jerry_stanek]

I did pocket it and they did not want the edges polished as they wanted the light to defuse around them. Here is a picture of the logo before it was installed
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[bleeth]

Thanks Jerry:
Did you apply the red vinyl before or after you routed it? If before I guess you used a down or straight cutter as I would think the upcut o-flute would mess up the vinyl.

[jerry_stanek]

I used a 2 flute straight cutter. the vinyl was applied after I cut it by the customer.