Discussion on proposed outdoor sign

[keith]

Hello all,

I have a sign that I’m cutting for a friend. This is my first real commercial sign so I realize that there is a huge learning curve with it. I have a few questions and I’d love some input. Here is a picture of the sign.

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It is 3 ft by 2 ft, doublesided, and each side is 1.75 inches thick. The overall ellipse shape is "domed" out, however the tops of all the letters are flush with each other and stand proud above the domed elipse by about .25 inches. I will be sandwiching either plywood or thin steel between them and hanging it from a bracket outside my friends coffee shop. If needed, I will bolt all three pieces together in four different places and fill in the bolt holes to hide them. I could also glue them if needed. I’d like to know what others may charge for this sign or something similar. I plan on cutting a prototype out of foam insulation from Home depot first to prove out the toolpath since I don’t want to try it for the first time on sign foam. The sign will be hung over a sidewalk. Here are my questions:
1. Would you bolt the three pieces together? Glue them? Both?
2. If you bolt them, how do you fill/hide the holes? I was thinking of making some slugs out of sign foam to fill in, sand down, etc.
3. While machining, I would use these bolt holes and hold the piece down to the table. Should I worry about the sign foam curling while I machine it? I read about this on the forum a while ago.
4. I was planning to machine it out of one solid piece of either 1.75 or 2.0 in thick signfoam per side. The other option would be to cut the letters separately and clue them in. Any thoughts on which process might be better? If there are separate letters that I glue into place, should I be concerned with water getting in the nooks and freezing?
5. Are there (in your experience) any noticeable issues with my design? Do you see features that might cause problems when machining? What about during normal wear and tear?
6. If I sandwich a piece of marine plywood or steel between it (for stability and to hang it) should I be concerned with rain water getting in between the layers on the top of the sign and slowly causing damage?
7. In your experience, what would you charge for a sign like this. This would be painted a few different colors (background one color, letters another color, chamfer on the letters and border another color.) I know prices range but I’m looking for a ballpark figure. There would be two sides that need to be machined, assembled, painted, etc. I will be handling it all. Design, programming, painting, assembly, etc. If someone sent you this picture and you had to give them a ballpark quote, what would it be?

Thanks for all the help! You guys are always very helpful!
-Keith

[brucehiggins]

Keith,
I really like the idea of the domed oval and the letter tops flush with each other. What software are you using to design that?
I am also curious about what the industry standard price for dimensional signs is. I read it somewhere - seems like it was $100/sq ft - double that for your 2 sided sign would be $1200. Does that sound right?
Bruce

[joe]

Looks good to me:

I'd do this with ArtCam as a 3D using 20lb HDU. Two seperate pieces, front and back. These would be carried by a center piece of MDO.

Keep in mind, projecting letters on each side, when seen from the back, may be visually confusing.

Costs:
Design $200.
1.5" HDU 285.
1/2" MDO 60.
Fixtures 40.
Paint 30.
CNC Time 250.
Painting 300.
Fab & Install 225.

I've figured the costs on the time and materials based on thirty years experience. This would be a fun job, however could take considerable time if not thougherly thought through. Production time is two weeks.

Please take photo's as you proceed through the project and keep us posted. Those photo's will be of historical importance to you down the road.

[keith]

Thanks everyone. I used SolidWorks to design the sign. If my friend gets all his permits and aprovals he needs, I'll be cutting it within a week or to.

[jhicks]

From what I see in Joes post he has isolated costs at $1390.00 including installation. You say its 2' x 3' so 12 sq ft for 2 sided layered design . I would say Joes numbers look right for BURDENED COSTS except paint cost which feels a bit low for 3 colors plus any masking, glue, screws, shop disposables, bits etc. My calculations would bounce Joes numbers for labor at a MINIMUM of $65.00/hr to verify if you can do it for that. Meaning you have 11.5 hours in labor for piloting, fabrication, finishing and assembly plus touch up, not including installation, customer back & forth, permits, buying and/or picking up materials etc.

You have $415.00 cash outlay for materials before any taxes or mark ups. So if you get a 50% deposit you have covered your material. Thats a good start but thats all you have.

Now you invest your time... so how fast can you turn it around and what's in your pocket for lunch and the 12 hours of work that lies ahead? $185.00
Total invested with burdened labor is $1165.00. At 12 sq feet your burdened cost is now $97.00/ sq ft. before install. HMMMM.... Does a $100.0/ sq ft, $1200.00 + $225.00 install sell price sound right?

Guess its all about cash flow, how efficient one is in their process, how much you value your time at, what your true overhead costs are, how much excess material you have left in inventory. To cut two oval like that plus letters and center stiffener you lose a fair amount of material in the gaps(more than 12 sq ft)from the 32 sq ft sheet so you've charged for it all and have some for practice or the next sign.

Ok now that that's included, if you marked up both labor and material a fair 1.33 for a 25% gross margin on the sale you would be at $1200.00 x 1.33 or $1,600.00 plus install or $133.00/ sq ft.
The difference is your estimated 25% gross profit on sale of $400.00. That's the part you use to buy groceries and take your wife to dinner with.
The $1200.00 is what I would call break even to cover material, labor, costs and overhead. Like the machine, power, lights, gas, insurance, etc

I have great respect for Joe, his work, and tremendous knowlege but to support the overhead, future investments, non billable hours, software, sales time, design time, mistakes and hope for a tiny profit, I would say $100.00 / sq ft for this design is what one charges to get business, develop a reputation, skills, and learn what it really takes to make it happen.
So the customer is in effect paying for your education and hopefully advertize for you via your work and referals. Not a bad thing but to make a profit, things need to be calculated to include that nasty word PROFIT on your burdened cost while meeting local market competitive conditions and deliver a fair to great value to BOTH YOU and the customer.
Keep in mind estimating is only as good as your abilty to implement at the estimated planned costs.

I always find it interesting that gas, materials, insurance, and groceries continue on the rise but sign prices seem to stay flat even by using expensive equipment, talented design and fabrication personnel, and petrochemical based materials.
Good luck and whatever you do, analyze the nmbers after its over and honestly ask if you made a profit. After all thats the difference between a business and a fun hobby but both are great.

After several years of having fun and learning about the dimensional sign business I can honestly say it's rewarding in the creative sense, forces one to learn the craft and ones machine stratagies at a level far above just cutting parts BUT I can also say I haven't met the "rich sign maker" yet so if it's about following your passion, press onward, if it's about profit, analyze the numbers before making signs your sole focus. Have fun and best of luck.

[harold_weber]

I tend to agree with Mr. Joe that the letters from the opposite side sticking out from the perimeter of the sign will look strange when you do this sign-double-sided. You should be able to preview this by simply using SolidWorks to place two identical copies back-to-back. Try looking at a few different perspective views and make sure your customer is going to be OK with this.

[gabepari]

You could make the center layer stick out as a border and to hide the overhanging lettering from the opposite side?? Looks like a fun project.

Gabe

[keith]

Thanks everyone. Jerry, thank you for the pricing infomation. I'm sure the ifo will come in handy often.
Harold, I did spin it around in SolidWorks and the customer is happy with the way the overhanging letters look. I agree with you so that's why I ran it by the customer first.
Gabe - good idea. I'll have to keep that in mind in case the customer changes his mind down the line.

All: Do you think I should cut the letters seperatly and glue them in to pockets that I machined out, or just cut the whole sign out of one piece.
Thanks again!

[joe]

Keith,

How would you contour the back of the letters to fit the curved panel. It makes sence in a way since the HDU letters extending outside the panel will be very deliclate. Could easily break.

Jerry, I'm so glad we have the opportunity to look this kind of work over.

The outline lettering would be a snap for an old sign painter. That could be a challenge for a newbee.

[tuck]

Keith, if I may weigh in please? Thank you.

To be honest, I'm not crazy about your design. Not only will it be difficult to fabricate and paint (especially for a novice!), but to me it just doesn't "pop". As a sign maker, you always have to know that getting the message across to your clients customers is first and foremost in making an effective sign that draws attention, is easy enough to read, and in this particular case, is FUN! "Bread & Jam" says "fun" to me, so I have taken the time to do a quick design as to what I would do: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/BreadJam.jpg
You'll notice that I got away from the elliptical shape. Ovals are nice but in some cases can be restraining. I would cut this in 2.5D (routed down background, raised letters and graphics), and be done with it, especially for a "friend" that is looking as much for a favor as anything else. (Trust me on this. Been there, done that.)

"Fancy" is no good if it's not effective. "3D" takes a long time to cut, 2.5D is quick and in most cases just as effective. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

[thecustomsignshop]

Ball park numbers, subject to reason...

We bill a flat rate of 110.00 per hour for design. Part of the design includes a packette for the customer that they can use to get permitts.

Normally charge about 110.00 per sqrft (per side)plus installation. If we us an automotive clear option, the cost is close to doubled.

Installation is a half a day charge or 450.00 plus rentals if needed. (Figure setup time, travel, install, possible issues during the install, cleanup etc...)

I would be concerned about HDU for an application such as this. HDU unsupported can be deliciate as Joe had mentioned. Maybe Trupan or Exterra is a better option. On some cases Dibond as a backer to HDU will help.

As for the outline, we machine in a groove about .125, which makes painting easier or cut the outline on a vinyl cutter, apply and clear coat.

As for paint, if cost is an issue, we will often use our large format printer and apply the solvent based digital printed image to the machined sign, then clear coat. The image will last as long as you use a UV clear.

Summary:

1. Would you bolt the three pieces together? Glue them? Both?

JZ - Glue, screws and plugs should be fine.

2. If you bolt them, how do you fill/hide the holes?

JZ - Plugs or bondo, depends on the size you need to plug.

3. While machining, I would use these bolt holes and hold the piece down to the table. Should ....

JZ - Screw will work, vacum is best for a smooth finish. I have never had HDU curl, but I'm sure it can. Vacum will stop this from happening. Using just screws you may get lines that you have to sand out later.

4. I was planning to machine it out of one solid piece of either ......

JZ - I piece per side, solid. As long as you use quality paint and HDU primer, you will be OK. Sign foam is not really affected to much by water. MDF, different story.


5. Are there (in your experience) any noticeable issues with my de.....

JZ - I agree with other comments, make sure it is legable. As for wear, depends on the environment.

6. If I sandwich a piece of marine plywood or steel .....

JZ - Dibond is a better option.

Good luck with your project! Enjoy it..

[gpari]

Keith - As for the design being "fun". I like it. I'm not too keen on the font (it's a bit hard to read), but the idea and colors are great!!

Joe - I'm assuming the pockets would be flat bottom, single plane. All letters would be same height with flat bottoms. Sink 'em in the pockets and let the ellipsoid do the work.

I personally like the pocket method. Easier to paint, and you get a sharp corner transition between the letters and the sign base instead of a fillet from the ball end bit.

Again, just my $0.02.

Gabe

[tuck]

Quote: "Keith - As for the design being "fun". I like it. I'm not too keen on the font (it's a bit hard to read), but the idea and colors are great!! "

A 2' x 3' sign is meant to be read close up, no? It ain't meant to be read from the highway at 75 mph, I know that! :-D

[jhicks]

Hi Joe, glad you didn't get offended by my comments as I know you have your process, design, and fabrication process dialed in for best strategies and efficiency.
As far as domed letters, I was thinking the same as Gabe that the letters would be pocketed. if shaping were desired, the HDU would be easily hand sanded to dome or contour the tops.
On the stiffener observations, I see one for TRUPAN.... NOT a great idea in my opinion as it will be extremely absorbent unless sealed with epoxy or polyurethane and not worth the risk. Medex, extira, MDO,or aluminum seems more suitable and weather resistant.
On the black outline edges, I can see where a raised edge or recessed with a paint mask would do the trick fairly easily or even a beveled edge for that matter. Paint base color,mask, machine edges (or re cessed interior), prime and paint edges (or recessed interior) and your ready to assemble.
Nice dialog here on this one with lots of very useful tips and interesting approaches.
On the design, I personally don't like squares and rectangles so the domed oval does it for me and accents the capability to create unusual dimensional details. I believe the dimension makes the sign stand out regardless of the font preferences.
I think they will get their moneys worth with this design and get noticed and be quite ledgible.
For me its about making someones head turn to look at the "unique" piece. get them that far and they will be able to understand the message.

[joe]

JH,

Let me re-read your post and find some reason to be offended. Your such a good friend I'd doubt if I'd ever find any exception.

I kinda like his idea too. Even the funky lettering is refreshing. It looks like something right out of "The Pink Panther".

These panels would slip out fast with one little change. That being the sidewall of the letters. By doing this as a single panel, not pocketing for letters, this would go very fast.

Most of my signs have inset letters and they take lots more time and fiddeling around with. It's an even better look if a slight border around the letters is left. That way they look like what they are. I may post a photo or two of this.

Once a panel is started and finished carving the job is close to finished. If time is money this would be a real time saver. As mentioned earlier letter sidewalls are the same color as background.

I'd also give the whole sign more roundness by darking very darkening the edges with a automotive touch-up gun. It could make the project sign.

Do well Jerry.


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[jhicks]

Joe, as usual, your work is terriffic and nothing tells the story better than a photo.
SOLD!

[zeykr]

This has been a very informative discussion. Thanks to all!

[thecustomsignshop]

Joe, nice work.

The comment about Trupan is correct, you need to seal it or water will be an issue. Take a look on the forum, there are many tips on Trupan finishing.

We use MAS epoxies, never had an issue to date and many signs we have completed are 3-6 years old.

We have used extira many times also, just watch the primer, many people have had the material shed paint. (We have been lucky to date...)

Look on extira's web site for recommended primers, the list is somewhat limited and they do not guarantee results.

[joe]

Jim,

The product information listed by Extira is flat out WRONG. Someone should take them to court.

Extira is saturated, under pressure, with phenolic resin. "Oil". Water based primers DO NOT stick well to oil. Primers like Zinzer and Kils which are alchohol based are excellent.

We give Extira a soap and water scrub down to get the surface ready to paint. When dry, it's a soft, slightly fuzzy surface and takes paint very well.

I'm a heavy user of their product and don't know what I'd do without it. My little "Wayne Locke" sign is extira with a Scupt Nouveau surface.

Now back to the discussion at hand. Extira is probably too heavy for this job. I'd use HDU and lightly texture it with exterior spackle.

Happy Carving

[tuck]

I gotta try that exterior spackle thing, Joe!

[joewino]

Joe...just how much does Extira pay you?

[thecustomsignshop]

Thanks Joe, I figured something was up when I looked over their documentation.

We were using solvents for a wipe down before painting, never tried soap and water.

Honestly, we basically stopped using it because of the weight and dust. After 10 1.5 inch thick 4x8 sheets I about split my side moving them around the shop. Thank god that project is over with.

We are focusing on Trupan this year and HDU type sign foams when the budget allows only becuase it seems to be easier to work with and my back seems to like it better....

Armorcoat (sp) would work well for a textured finish also.

[keith]

Thanks for the help with this sign. The cutting was delayed due to the owner getting permits, but all is well and the job continues. I did some research and found that the expansion of signfoam due to temperature changes is 10 times that of aluminum. I found this on Signfoams website. That's crazy! Has anyone had issues with the material expanding and shrinking so much that:

- Your paints starts to get affected?
- Your mounting hardware gets affected?

My design has changes a little, mostly in how it wll be hung. Since this is a 2 sided sign, the new plan is to have two strips of steel sandwiched between the signfoam and protruding out the top with holes to use to hang the sign. One side of the sign will be bolted through the steel stips to the other side. Then the holes will be plugged. Hopefully tis makes sense...but I can always add an image if needed. Do you think this will work? The steel will have mounting holes with slots to allow for any expansion. If most people feel that this will work, my last question is wether I should glue the signs together in addition to the bolting, or just leave it as is. Originally I thought about just bolting in case I needed to repair the sign at all.

Thanks again for all the advice!!!

[joe]

Keith,

Glad you're still on the trail with this sign.

Here's my LAW when it comes to hanging signs. I never, ever rely on the sign itself as part of the structure. What I mean by this: The basic structure should stand for itself. The sign goes along for the ride. In this case I'd make, or have made, a steel frame and screw down from the top and bottom, SS screws. Aluminum frames are good also.

What I see here is two different structures. Metal frame and sign applied to it. You should be able to find a metal shop with a metal bender. It shouldn't cost much to have the frame structure made. Also I try to find large old chain no longer safe for consturction. With this I have the links welded together, making it sold. This comes in handy for hanging signs where a decorative chain is needed. It makes the sign swing and not bounce around.

Joe
www.normansignco.com./htm (http://www.normansignco.com./htm)

[keith]

Thanks Joe, I would really like to do something like what you suggested. And the best thing....my business associate owns a metal shop with a cnc plasma cutter. My concern was the expanding of the signfoam. I can't imagine it expands 10 times that of aluminum, however that's what it said on their website. Even if that is incorrect, do I need to account a lot for the expansion?

[joe]

Keith,

It's not the Sign Foam which expands. Aluminum is the culprit but it doesn't make any difference on this small a sign.

I would suggest you use GE Silicona glue to put it all together. It's available at Home Depot and Lowes. It's flexable enough to allow for your concern of expansion.

Never mind the previous negative post by RC. Sometimes he get tired and grumpy. He's from Texas you know. We have to cut them some slack.

Joe
www.normansignco.com./htm (http://www.normansignco.com./htm)

[keith]

Well,I tested the toolpaths on a piece of pink isulation foam from Home Depot and all went well. Can anyone tell me if the speeds and feeds for the pink foam insulation would be similar to the speeds and feeds of Sign Foam? I'd like to keep them similar if possible, since I know they work for the pink foam. Any comments would be apprecuiated. Also, I took a lot of pictures and HD video for the test piece....and will certainly to the same for the real pieces. I'll post them shorlty... (Currently I'm 300 miles from the shop in upstate NY at a college reunion)

[keith]

Hi Joe, Thanks for the help. You mentioned GE Silicone in this thread (and a few other threads as well) I saw some stuff at the local hardware store called GE Silicone but it was for windows and baths, and mentions nothing about an adhesive.... Perhaps I'm looking into this too much, but is that also somethihg that I can use as a glue to glue both pieces of signfoam back to back? Thanks again! I'll be cutting the main signs today.

[joe]

Keith,

The glue is, as you said, found at hardware stores and listed for window and bath. There are two versions Silicone 1&2. The Silicone 2 is a no no. It remains very flexable and has little stregnth.

Go for Silicone 1. I like the clear version.

Good luck with the project.

Joe
www.normansignco.com/workshop.htm (http://www.normansignco.com/workshop.htm)

[keith]

Here is the latest on the sign. I started by cutting a piece of pink foam from the local home depot to prove out my toolpaths...which is good because I noticed a few flaws! Both signs have been cut and they are no in the process of being primed and painted...

I'm running in to a time crunch because the shop owner wants the sugn up a week or so before the opening.


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6390

[keith]

OK, here's the final sign...cut, painted and delivered. I learned a lot and thanks to all your suggestions I think it came out pretty good.


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6392

I certainly learned a lot more than I expected with this. Here are some of my remaining questions....

There is a thin black border on all the letters. I hand painted them and they were a pain. Any suggestions on other methods would be appreciated. Also, I painted this by first spraying the entire sign with primer, then orange. Then, I rolled yellow on the flat tops of the letters, painted the black border around the letters, and then painted the small letters on the bottom black. It definitely took more time than I would have ever imagined.

Also, I know pricing is a huge issue and depends on many things, however would $1500-$2000 for a sign like this be appropriate? It's one thing to guess at a price based on a sketch, but now that there's an actual image of the end result, if someone asked you to "Make this exact sign" what would your price be? 36 inches wide, 20 inches tall, each side of sign foam is 1.75 inches thick. This sign will be hung outdoors in upstate NY. Thanks again!!!

[joewino]

As to the black outline, what we do is paint the flat letter surface black and then apply vinyl in the letter color (Yellow) leaving a small outline for the black to show around the vinyl lettering.

We also use the same method and cut PVC letters on out ShopBot and then apply them over the smooth, raised portion of the copy.

The price is probably a little more than we would charge, but not a lot. About $1,200 would be my estimate, but then I would have approached the process a little differently, also.

[dubliner]

Raymond,regarding the vinyl & border of letters. I’ve done a similar effect with a brush & I see why you use vinyl instead. I’m “dreaming” of a vinyl cutter one day, could you speak to the issue of size, brands, price durability etc? thanks Neville

[joewino]

Well, that's a wide ranging question. The only vinyl plotter that I'm familiar with is the one I own, even though I see a bunch on the market.

Choice depends on what you plan to do. Since our work is relatively small, it would be foolish for me to have an extremely large plotter.

Our is a Graphtec FC 2100-60A, which is 15 years old and used every day. I'm not sure that this model is even made any more or not. It's a friction feed plotter that cuts up to 24" wide, along with a pen for drawing on paper.

Even though it is used every day, the blade only is replaced about every 18 months.

Over the past 15 years it has given no problems and has had nothing replaced during that time.

Graphtec makes larger versions as well as smaller. Mine was $5,500 (with a stand) new, but the prices are considerably lower now.

In 1985 I bought a Gerber IVB, which was the first vinyl plotters, even before PC operated ones. It was bulletproof and is still running today.

If I can be of any further help, just give me a call.