Thermwood dovetail bits with SB Link

[dlcw]

Has anyone had any experience with using the Thermwood dovetails bits and SB Link to do half-blind dovetail joints for drawer boxes? What has been your experience - good/bad? Is it worth the investment in the bits? Is it a really time-consuming effort to get the joints to line up properly?

I've been trying to get the Porter Cable Omni-Jig to do single pass half-blind dovetail and I've come to the conclusion that the jig is not made well enough to do this. When I tighten knobs on the jig, templates flex and things "bend/flex" into position making it inaccurate at best.

Thanks in advance.

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[Gary Campbell]

Don...
I am with you. Waiting for the next customer to pay for my "on the job training" for the dovetail bit set. Sorry that I am only wishing, like you.
Gary

[joe_dusel]

I personally think that dovetails on plywood drawer boxes look a bit cheesy. The only sheet material I think this would really look good in is vertical solid bamboo. I would ask the folks at Shopbot what they think since they were banging them out at AWFS. The big problem they had was they were using the crappy Chinese imitation Baltic birch.

You can also get more feedback on these through the Thermwood CNC forum.

Joe

[Gary Campbell]

Joe...
I agree completely. Even tho I have done some out of both natural and amber bamboo, I think I would prefer to make up some appropriate sized hardwood blanks. My guess is 15" by 48". I can get pallets of Maple shorts for a good enough price to afford the glue up. At $200 a sheet for the bamboo, its no bargain either.
Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

I'm sorry but I don't see using a CNC for cutting dovetails as an efficient use of its capabilities.
There are machines made to do dovetails way better than a flat bed CNC.
When I sell dovetailed drawers I pick up the phone and have them delivered.
I don't believe I can make them for what I can buy them for.
Same a corbels. I can't possibly make them for what I can buy them for delivered to the shop.

[joe_dusel]

I agree with Roger on this one. I think it makes way more sense to just buy the pre-made and finished dovetailed solid wood boxes. There are better things to use the CNC for - like milling that bamboo sheet material into furniture. By the way, the place I buy mine has it for $117/sheet. He says PlyBoo and the others are basically ripping us off.

Joe

[dlcw]

Roger,

Based on your comment about buying versus building, what kind of pricing would you expect for 10 drawers 12Hx30Wx21D maple, dovetailed front and back, with 3/8" plywood bottom, prefinished? Since I've always built drawer boxes in house, I don't know what a reasonable, low or high price would be.

Thanks,

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[thewoodcrafter]

Just off the top of my head I would say $40 - $50 each.

[joe_dusel]

They would likely be about $76 each (unfinished), $10 more finished, and $3 more for notching. That is a deep drawer box.

The deepest I usually sell for my drawer boxes is 8" and I use 1/4" bottoms. These are about $57 each in dovetailed maple, notched and finished. I think 3/8 is a bit of overkill in most cases. (I'm working on some furniture for a $500K condo in which they used 1/8" bottoms for the white painted MDF drawer boxes in the factory made kitchen and bath cabinets.)

Joe

[thewoodcrafter]

Joe could be right.
They are big drawer boxes.
I usually get them quoted from the supplier.

[joe_dusel]

For a drawer box that big you would have about 9 bd ft. of maple at around $5/bd. ft.. So, you could easily be $50 in material costs for the box. The costs I gave for the factory drawer boxes are from a vendor's price list.

Joe

[Gary Campbell]

Joe, Roger...
I can surely see differences in the market between your part of the country and ours.

Draw pricing here for a <16" width and 18" long by <4" depth drawer (finished)is $50 including a Blum Tandem slide. Others, of course, are higher. That is from a production supplier. The same drawer from a supplier with better quality is around the same, but unfinished and no slide.

These types of suppliers are the reason many small custom shops wish to cut our own. The majority of our custom pieces require a much better fit and finish than can be purchased from a production vendor. In most cases it requires a higher grade of material than they can supply.

That was the reason that I devoloped my ShopBot dovetail jig in the first place. I was looking to see what the joint quality would be if I needed it. We do our own so that we can keep the quality higher than is available from a vendor. Since we are also looking to develop a lesser priced line, nested drawers may be a solution. We are also paying attention to this in an effort to provide a more "green" product.

As far as draw box materials go, the final decision lies with the consumer. There are some very elegant ply materials out there that are every bit as strong and aesthetically pleasing as solids, but as Joe says, may be "cheesey" in the customers eye. When I learned the trade, any plywood part used in a cabinet case is simply a cheaper alternative to "real wood"

Roger makes a good point about making vs. buying and the cost of each. Of course it costs more to custom make a dovetailed drawer. The same goes for 5 piece doors. Actually, it seems to me that the majority of "custom" cabinet makers in the US are outsourcing everything these days. This may be a way to survive, but we as cabinetmakers are losing our craft. I take serious exception with a shop that advertises that is is a "custom" shop, but it is providing outsourced doors, drawers, moldings, corbels etc, and is sending the plywood out to a CNC cutter for processing. Whats custom? The size? The design? It sure isnt the cabinetry, as it is a combination of the lowest priced parts that can be assembled. Maybe thats it, its custom assembled from low bid production parts. My guess is that it would be advertised as "higher quality" than ones that were made in a different but "branded" factory.

Enough of my rant... I am always temped to go off when someone takes features that used to mean something in my craft and starts merchandising with them. After a while is seems that providers of that factory made junk actually believe that they are "high quality" and "custom".
Gary

[joe_dusel]

Actually Gary, I think a plywood drawer box looks better without a dovetail joint that shows the plys. You already are setup to do dowels in drawer boxes and I think that makes a great (and hidden) construction. Hey, it was good enough for Sam Maloof.

As for the quality of the factory drawer boxes they are definitely top notch. I personally could not make them much better unless I setup variably spaced dovetails or something. The companies I use make dovetailed drawer boxes by the thousands. They know how to do it right, get the order out in about a week and for a decent price.

As far as folks outsourcing to CNC shops all I can say is shame on them, but I hope they don't stop doing it after I get a machine of my own. That reminds me, I need to pick up my order from the CNC shop on Monday. ;^)

Take care,

Joe

[Gary Campbell]

Joe...
Nice shot... mine wasnt at you, but was aimed at what the trade seems to be deteriorating into.

A wise man once told me that all custom shops are a job or 2 from going under. Maybe I should get with the program and make money instead of one offs.

I would like to see what 16mm appleply would look like. (or if it would sell)

Gary

[dlcw]

Boy, I didn't think I would launch a shooting war just asking about Thermwood dovetails bits. I wasn't looking for a heated battle between everyone on whether it is or isn't "right" to make plywood drawer boxes or whether it was right or wrong to buy drawer boxes, I was trying to get feedback, from anyone who happens to owns Thermwood dovetail bits, and whether or not they are worth the cash outlay and their effectiveness with SB Link.

I can make the decision as to whether or not it is cost effective for my CNC machine to spend time making drawer boxes. If it is the only job I have at any given moment in time, I'd rather take the job then have my machine sit idle waiting for a more "appropriate" project to come along. Income is income, no matter how it is earned (legally of course).

Maybe a new thread should be started to debate on purchase versus build, plywood or not plywood drawer boxes?

Thank you,

Don

[joe_dusel]

Shooting war? Those were just pin nails coming out the cabinet sides. I don't think anybody was playing rough here.

My big issue with the CNC dovetails is that from the demos that I have seen I was not impressed by the quality. But then it could just have been that the material that was being milled was not quite as good as it should be. I guess I'm just picky about tear-out on dovetails.

Joe

[beacon14]

Gary, I have to disagree with you one on this one. The world is full of specialization, with technology being what it is there is no way any one person can be an expert on everything, and unless you have a huge operation you just can't produce these specialized products as efficiently as a company that does that and only that for a living, and has the economy of scale on their side. You don't make your own drawer slides do you? What about hinges? Do you mix your own finishes? Lay up your own plywood? Grow your own trees?

Like anything else there are expensive, high quality and cheap, low quality options for outsourcing. You can outsource everything and do a poor job of coordinating and assembling it all, or you can outsource everything and do a great job tying it all together.

As far as I'm concerned, if my clients can choose from over 1,000 door styles, in virtually any wood species, with finishes ranging from clear lacquer to high-end faux finishes, glazes and paints, with a choice of any drawer hardware on the market and dozens of drawer construction options (some of which we make in-house, some of which we outsource), well, if that's not custom, what is?

[Gary Campbell]

David...
You are one of the few people that will cause me to rethink my position when yours differs from mine. I have done this, taking your point into consideration. Please understand, that I believe that in this day of specialization, that the aforementioned specialization is the problem rather than the solution. Also understand that I am not claiming to be the expert on everything, let alone anything. I am at the waning years of a dying craft. It is far more efficent to assemble products from mast produced specialty components than to "custom make" them.

Definition: CUSTOM-MADE
1.Made according to the specifications of a particular individual.
2.The term "Custom-made" refers to products that are manufactured only by the instructions, measurements and materials you specify. Products that are mass produced and then altered to meet your needs as best as possible do not provide the look, quality or level of satisfaction as a custom-made product.

My counterpoints:
I dont formulate, but yes I do mix my own finishes. We stock both bases and 20+ pigments for both stain and solid colors.

Nor do I feel that selecting from even a large selection of a vendors "stock" profiles and/or finishes is custom made.

Yes, we do lay up veneers on both a ply or solid (staves) core.

Havent grown any trees, but does buying 80 acres of timber, cutting it, drying it and milling 12,000 BF into millwork for a custom home count? (see Architectural Digest June 2000)

The man I apprenticed under never came back into the shop after he noticed that ball bearing slides had replaced his dovetail mechansms.

If we were discussing, lets say "custom made" cars, as an example of something we are not involved with either financially or emotionally, would any of the US manufacturers giving their customers a choice of hundreds of factory made options from a catalog compare with an old European manufacturer that hand builds "custom cars" for their clients? You know, the guys that do it with machines and sweat rather than catalogs and the telephone.

And yes, I think that there is a difference between "custom selection of mass produced (and usually lower cost) items, assembled just for you" and "custom made", at least the way I learned it.

My son and I have built many cabinets in this fashion, solid wood...period. Of course we purchase cabinet hardware, we just dont forge much anymore.
Many of the items on our website are made in this fashion, cut on the ShopBot, but from solid wood, no plywood or manufactured product. Some are finished with a solid color lacquer. BTW... the phone hasnt been ringing off the wall for this type of item lately. We, like most out there, are outsourcing as a cost saving alternative to no work! Like I said above... I would rather make a living than one-offs.
Gary

[englert]

Don, I haven't checked the Thermwood forum to see if you've asked the question there, but they'd be better at answering your question about the dovetail drawers, the dovetail bit, and the commercial value of the drawers. We do have quite a few manufacturing this type of drawers in volumes that are surprising.

Another option for this type of drawer is using the blind dado joinery method. That works quite well; is strong; and the edge plys on the ends are more disguisable. Additionally, some edge band the drawer parts, which makes a surprisingly good looking box, plus it's easy to assemble.

Anyways, check the Thermwood forum.

[dlcw]

Hi Dennis,

How are you doing? Haven't heard from you in awhile. Hope all is going well.

Anyway, I've decided to do exactly what you mention in your post. I'm doing a locking rabbit joint (blind dado) and then edge banding the prefinished baltic birch. Looks like an expensive solid maple drawer at a more economical price for a specific customer base. I still offer solid wood (if the customer wants to pay for it) but I always try to give customers options.

The only additional step on the tablesaw is the drawer bottom dado on the reverse side of the front and back drawer parts. I opted not to do flip operations because is takes less time on the TS.

Take care,

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)