Off-topic PC/Mac rant moved here

[navigator7]

Alison wrote some time back.....: "Scott: Has anyone tried this with a Mac computer yet? Our Shopbot is controlled by a iMac running XP on Parallels."

I'm going to try exactly that. I did have a 3D printer running on an iMac via Bootcamp and windoz XP. No problems. ever.

Parallels seems the way to go as being on the windoz side is like a death sentence. I'm always looking for reasons to escape and really don't want to go back.

If Scott can write an app for the iPhone why can't he write an app for Mac users that will run a ShopBot?

Macs running a ShopBot would be like P-51's going into battle against a bunch of WW1 Folkers


6591

No pressure Scott.
;-)

[adrianm]

So what's the difference between running XP on a Mac and XP on a PC of the same spec then?

Modern Macs are just PCs at the end of the day.

I remember my father-in-law raving about his new Mac when he got it last year and how he would never go back to Windows. His PC was six years old and was running Windows 3.1.....

The problems with SB3 are to do with the software itself rather than the platform in my opinion.

[navigator7]

I don't tire of a platform rant...do you, Adrian?
;-)

Modern Macs are just PC's at the end of the day?

If you prevent a windows machines from accessing the internet or opening files then I'd have to agree with you.

A Mac cost three times as much as a comparable PC.
I've got 5.
Of the five two have crapped. One was dropped on a padeye on a barge on a rainy night and kept on running for another three years.
The oldest.....an old iMac has a dull screen.....and well...it just looks cute now.

All have run without fail and without protection from the junk on the internet.
I have no virus protection on any machine. I don't even know what to do with virus protection if I had it?
The machines just do what I want when I want to do it.

When I worked for a PC based bizness.....there was always some techie coming in to get a PC machine running right.
I've never had a problem with a Mac... and never paid someone to fix something. That is worth something to me.

My Mac CAD programs are simply a breeze to run.
I can't wait to open either program to do something.
3D Cobalt (Mac and Windoz based 3D and 2D) is fantastic except extruding text really sucks. "That" is a real heart breaker.
I downloaded Aspire prepping for my next voyage into commerce.
There is a lot going on behind Aspire and I understand all that. But it has that damned stodgy windoz behavior all tarred and feathered and stuck up that keeps the program from being free. It is not even close to Cobalt ... at least the test version is no better.
I thought it would be killer on fonts. Nadda. Everything does True Fonts fine but after that it just hard work.

I run PowerCADD as a 2D program for simple creation. It's better than using a pencil for design. It's font ability is tremendous.
I can import pic's, bmp's, gifs, jpegs, pngs, pdfs, dwg, dxf and can export to everything useful for carving designs on a ShopBot.

In 1996, I worked at a place where I needed to know Autocad or get left in the dust. Teaching yourself autocad is doable....but after a week of frustration trying to create a simple design I gave up. I was leaking acid I was so frustrated. Somehow I got tangled up with Powercadd. I bought a Mac and Powercadd and in about two hours after downloading the program I created a finished drawing I could not complete after a weeks worth of cussing.
I've been on both sides of the fence.....Paid to learn and paid to do.
In about three days...long time Autocad guys were asking me why my drawings were so much prettier and BTW...How did you create that line????
If I was going to pay people to be productive on a CAD program I'm not going to use a pile driver to crack nuts.

Work on a job site building a home. Each guy has a different hammer. Some have a free hammer. Some found a hammer. Others bought a hammer they like. I have a titanium hammer. It cost a bunch but everyone wants to use it because it drives harder with less effort.
Tools are like the old pricing adage: Cheap Fast and Good. Pick two.

What is needed is a Mac based g-code writer. A MacBot!

Ok...I'm done. Your turn!
;-)

[adrianm]

I was an Apple dealer for a while back in the late 80's, early 90's when Apple still made their own stuff rather than assembling components.

I've got no particular axe to grind either way. In 30 years of working in the IT industry I've used just about every OS and language there is.

They've all got their own strengths and weaknesses but I do feel that Windows gets a lot of undeserved stick. There are a huge number of urban myths around it.

It does sound like that you've found two programs that you really like that happen to run on a Mac.

Personally I do tire of platform rants. It's one of the main reasons I called time on my very succesfull IT career. Never a day went by without some argument over PC/Mac, Unix/Windows, Oracle/Informix, C++/Java etc etc.

It's almost tribal/religious at times.

Personally I just use whatever is the cheapest, most reliable way to solve the problem at hand.

For me, at the moment, that is Vectric software, a ShopBot and a PC with Windows.

Note the order I list them. That's my priority.

[navigator7]

@ Adrian,

They don't make a tongue-in-cheek icon that I am aware of.
Suffice it to read: " ;-) " is my way of lubricating dialog.
Even though you tire of platform rants...you gotta admit.....it's like talking religion and politics. Everybody says don't do it but it's so much fun!
;-)

An Apple Dealer? And you quit?

I live 300 miles from civilization. I had the shock of my life recently traveling to Seattle. An Apple store in Bellevue, Wa had more people in it's store before 0900 than in the entire mall! The Bellevue Mall was a ghost town except for the Apple Store.
Not only was the place packed, you could only get in via a previously arranged online appointment! No phone ins. If you wanted to shop, great. Shop. But if you had an issue...as I did with my iPhone, I had to wait until somebody didn't show for an appointment. That took 1.5 hours.
There were employees outside the store preventing people from entering as the occupancy rule was violating fire department regulations. There was a 100' long waiting line to get into the store.
If you had an appointment and you were at the end of the line...if they called your name you were in!

There were nearly as many people in the Apple store as my home town. Talk about culture shock!
I can only dream of owning a business with a waiting line and then figuring out how to make the line (Or Vector as Aspire calls it) as short as possible.

Regardless my iPhone issue was fixed quickly, and on my way out the mall I passed a Dell reseller. It was closed.
I can only guess all the activity was over Apple's iPhone, iTunes and iPod.
Maybe one day Apple stores will be full of Carhartt wearing machinists groveling for a chance to buy the new "iCode"????
Insert: ;-)

On a more serious note......
What is it about apple programming that has caused it to miss out creating machine code?

The exe file?

A 6% market share?

I just don't get it?

Chuck

[rb99]

I think the reason was Autocad and vectors were dos based programing. Apple's were integrated into big printing machines in the 70's as the control interface, and they became the printer's computer, used more for photo and print type applications. Photoshop was apparently created from the programs used to make the first Star Wars movie.

So the dos guys used plotters, and the Mac guys used bitmaps. It was not too long ago that if you wanted to run vector software and a plotter you would have no choice but go pc.

Also everything Mac was completely ripped off Sun Computers.


RIB

[khaos]

yup 6% market share. Not to mention overpriced hardware. When the G-series chip were in play there was a value over cost argument. Now with intel chipsets why pay more for less. As a software guy I know plenty of my contemporaries who love their MAC. The app I see them using the most on their MAC... Windows. lol.

Once market penetration becomes worth the hassle then maybe things will change.

A Lexus or Caddy SUV is obviously more SUV than a Bronco but economics control peoples choices. Thats why there are more broncos.

iDont.

<dialog lubricated>

[Gary Campbell]

Chuck...
There is a possibility that if you dont install the SB3 software on a reccommended system, there will be little or no tech support. I am sure others have done this. Order a machine yet?
Gary

[mikeacg]

Chuck,

I have an IMac, a G3 and a MacBook. What software would I need to add to my system to test drive the SB3 software for you before you buy a machine? I use both platforms everyday so I don't quite understand the elitist attitude on either side of this debate. I use Windows (Tajima, Magellan, QDT, Wilcom) for my embroidery business, Windows for my Bot/Vectric (Aspire, Partworks V2, Partworks 3D) software, Windows (Illustrator and CorelDraw) for my laser work, Mac (Photoshop, Quark and Illustrator) for my graphics business, Mac (Dreamweaver) for my website design service, Mac for SketchUp, etc. I use whatever works the best for the application. If I can help you make an informed decision, just let me know.

Mike

[harryball]

I've never had a long term relationship with a mac work out. It evetually does something stupid that is purely a limitation of some engineer/designer/lawyer that ticks me off. I've seen macs turn from a love relationship to flying out of a second story window.

I just say no. :-)

Friends don't let friends use macs.

/RB

[mikeacg]

Look, I'm just trying to help here. I use them both and I don't see that they are really that different. They each have problems but you learn to adjust to them. I build most of my Windows machines out of cast-offs so when I have a problem, I just swap out parts. I do less of that with the Macs only because I don't have a back bedroom full of surplus parts. If I can help Chuck feel comfortable with using a Mac and buying a ShopBot, I will do whatever it takes to bring him into the fold. If it won't work, I will tell him the sad truth. If I can make it work, I will let him know that as well. Running inside a shell is not all that bad and if the software is stable it shouldn't be a problem. We're not talking rocket science here. G-Code is so basic that it reminds me of the original BASIC which I learned on with a 4K machine that I can't believe we can't make this work.
Mike

[khaos]

I don't think its a question of could it be done. With such a small return on the r&d dollars I don't see an added value to doing it.

This is of course jmho...

[dlcw]

Who sells more software for the Mac then all other software publishers combined? The same people who brought you Windows. Yep, Microsoft Office is the largest selling application on the Mac platform. I worked for Microsoft for 6 1/2 years as a Senior Consultant - utilizing platforms like DOS, Windows, Unix, OS/2, mainframes, Windows servers, Netware servers, plus many others. People always asked me why the Mac desktop was so much more stable then the Windows desktop. The answer was very simple - closed system versus open system. Apple controls all hardware and driver development for the Mac. IBM mainframes are either IBM hardware and drivers or hardware and drivers certified by IBM. Microsoft tried a hardware/driver certification program and was thoroughly trashed by the media for trying to create a closed hardware platform. Microsoft controls none of the hardware for the PC but yet they are expected to fully support any and all hardware and drivers that comes down the pike that any user wants to plug into their machine.

If you own the platform and keep it closed to third party development it is amazing how stable you can make it. However, if you open it up to the world, it's like unzipping your fly in public.

Another problem we dealt with as consultants was dealing with the programming community that felt it was their God given right to bypass the API's that Microsoft had developed for Windows and go right to the hardware. It's a little tough for an O/S to stabilize a platform when programs are purposefully manipulating the hardware making it unstable for all programs running on the machine. But everyone thought Microsoft should support this behavior and was supposed to develop an O/S that was stable under these conditions. Were Microsoft API's the most efficient and effective - NO - but using them helped stabilize the desktop and bypassing them helped to destabilize the system.

As a former Microsoft employee I saw all kinds of abuse of the PC platform and Microsoft was always blamed for it - case in point anti-virus software - notorious for getting between the O/S and the hardware. When this class of software came out, Microsoft did a very exhaustive and expensive study and concluded that the first generation of this software was causing over 90% of the stabilization problems because the developers simply bypassed the O/S and did whatever they wanted. Anti-virus is still a problem.

Why do hackers hit the Windows platform more then any other platform - simple - economy of scale. The more machines they can impact the more notoriety and media attention they get. If they hit only 6% of the computers in the world it would be like a fanatical terrorist hitting an ant hill versus a large city with millions of people. Hitting the Mac platform won't make a big impact and will hardly get noticed in the news.

Do I fully endorse everything Microsoft has done in the past and present - NO. They've made plenty of mistakes (Vista, Windows ME, etc.) and have tried to correct them - very similar to what Shopbot is doing to help us get our machines more stable. Is Microsoft to big, well, when I worked for Microsoft in the 90's they had a whopping 10% of the world wide software market. At the time IBM had more then 60% of the world wide software market. The big difference was that Microsoft software was in everyone's face while IBM's software ran in the glass room on mainframe computers, not on the desktop so it was perception, not reality.

I figure these comments should keep this thread lively.

<dialog lubricated>

Don

[robtown]

I have a Titanim notebook that sits in the corner and does nothing but play my 6000 songs in iTunes all day.

I have two dual xeon workstations running XP, they stay on all day every day and are online 100% of the time. Never had a virus, never had to "pay" anyone to fix them.

I can't do all I do on a MAC. I DID take the time to learn autoCAD. I can make drawings as pretty as you in ten different programs, not including autoCAD.

Bottom line, your skillset is your skillset, you have chosen to invest your skillset heavily in the MAC platform. I commend you for that. But when it comes to a comparison as to what you can "do" and what I can "do" with our respective computers, I will run circles around you because I have so much more available based on my platform of choice and what I've chosen to invest in my skillset.

The whole MAC vs PC thing, parkay-butter, whatever you want to call it, is laughable at best. They both do EXACTLY the same thing, take ones and zeros and do "stuff". It's good to have brand loyalty, but some take it too far...

[navigator7]

...And for my next death defying act: ...I will describe in nauseating detail my conservative views on religion and politics.....

Don...got any lubricant left?

@ Gary...Nope No order yet. I'm in talks today with a prospective customer for the creation of some desk top stuff.

@ Michael Schnoor... I have BootCamp. I've loaded Aspire and the SB program on it and it works. (Minus a finished piece of wood I can sell) Rebooting is a pain...so I'm running the trial version of Parallels. Everything seems to work as well.

@ Joe... When I bought my iPhone there was something like 1000 apps available. Last time I looked there was 75,000 apps.
Who could imagine success like that? I believe I am right....there are no programs specifically designed for a Mac to run cnc machines.
I just find that odd that no Broken Arrow has deviated from the cow path and just done it?
Michael said in the post above yours....G-code is so basic.

Don...I think you nailed my appeal for a Mac. Evidently there are a lot of people here who know the ins and out of a windows machine. When I was a kid....It was balanced and blue printed. The V-8 was the grail. I know the ins and out of a marine diesel better than any computer. I don't care whats inside the box...I just want it to work.

And whats with that stupid dog wagging his stupid tail? Can somebody tell me how to turn off all the helper features on Windoz? When I open it up there are a billion things telling me how my machine might be compromised. You click to delete something and it asks you if you really want to do what you just did. It's mind numbing.

I'm relieved to be the instigator of a scatological thread on platform.....and while my tongue is buried in cheek....others want to hit me with a 2 x 4 in the jaw. Rob! ;-)

At least for the time being we remain a capitalist free market system. Maybe in the future each comrade will be issued a box from the Central Processing and everyone will run circles equally and fairly around his or her own cubical.

<Dab of lubricant>

[mikeacg]

Chuck,

Send me a link for Parallels and I will put it on my laptop. That way I can try creating a design and cut it on my Buddy just to be sure it will work for you.

Mike

[waynelocke]

I am a Mac user and find the machines and OS much more refined. But as in all things computer, the best software is the the one you know. I use a 3d cad program, Vectorworks, for the design and rendering of my furniture and use Parallels to run Aspire and a few other programs. The Windows programs are easily accessible which makes it easy to move things from Vectorworks to Aspire.

I have never run my SB from a Mac because I don't want my Macs in the dust. I would feel the same if my main computer was a PC. PC's can be had so cheaply I don't know why you wouldn't want to run your $10,000 machine with a dedicated $300 computer.

And I really like Macs.

[bcammack]

My two cents on the subject, based on my 35+ years in the computer biz.

"When all you have is a hammer, everything pretty much looks like a nail."

The computer, at this point, is a commoditized item. Pick the O/S that does the what you need to do better than any other O/S.

Regarding the Bellevue Mall in Bellevue, WA. I lived in Redmond, WA in the mid-80s. One of the jokes about the "Eastside" was: They're opening a funeral home at the Bellevue Mall. It's going to be called 'Death & Things'... "

[khaos]

Smart phones, iPhone included, are like an entirely different market from the personal computer. Integration with other devices is becoming rapidly non-denominational with web assets. This is an emerging market set to explode!! The iPhone the has enough market penetration to be truly viable. Even I have an iPod & an iTouch.

However, at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, the very fact that there are so many iPhone apps means that I would spend my time on windows mobile, Blackberry, or to a lesser degree palm OS. Simply for visibility. On the iPhone side you have extreme competition for the spotlight.

My personal opinion is that this market will shape other markets including the PC market.

[dlcw]

I have a feeling the next big target for terrorist hackers is going to be the iPhone/Smart Phone, etc. market. Again, economy of scale. Lots of media attention and notoriety. Unfortunately, it's inevitable.

I used a Mac to data model and design a very large US Army document imaging system when I worked at EDS in the later half of the 80's and early 90's. I loved how it worked and there was no equivalent piece of software for the PC platform at the time. The only problem I had, since I was a PC guy, was where was the button to pop out the diskette in the A drive. It took me awhile to figure out it was software controlled, not hardware controlled. But, the platform was very stable and a joy to use once I figured it out. There were things I still liked about the Windows platform better but I was happy with either platform.

To reiterate other comments here, a computer is just a tool to accomplish a task. Whatever platform has the most versatile solution and expandability, at a competitive price, will be the platform I choose to accomplish the task. Simple....

[geometree]

The problem with using a mac for direct machine control runs deeper than just getting shopbot software to run on it. I run partworks using parallels regularly to create files, and preview them with SB3, no problem there. The problem seems to be that a complete take over of the system at the root level is required to actually run a shopbot. The timing of each step pulse must be dead on or else your machine will never run smoothly. Mach3 on windows and EMC for linux act at the root level to keep this timing. OS X seems to have something that keeps this from being possible or else a CNC app would exist.

[navigator7]

@ Shawn, Are you saying a ShopBot won't run off a Mac using Parallels on XP?

(I reread what you wrote.....and you say it's the operating system....OSX)

But I still have to ask.

[geometree]

I don't know. I moved my shop recently and my shopbot is down for the moment. I've been meaning to try it, but I doubt it would work. I don't see why it wouldn't work using bootcamp. Although, I'm not sure what the advantage would be, you can't use the computer for anything else while its controlling the shopbot. So, why waste a Mac to simulate windows and be tied up in the shop doing the job of a $100 windows machine.

[jastod]

I'm going to stay away from the Mac vs. PC "religious" debate.

But I can answer the question about whether it will work. We run our Shopbot with SB3 running on XP via Parallels on an iMac. So far, we haven't run into any operational issues or limitations.

[knight_toolworks]

I have both I have a mac mini at home and a pc at work. myself I have used vcarve in parallels but it is slower opening files and moving them around. so for work I can't see spending the money on a mac to do my drawing. I don't see any real benefits. though my mac does not need the rebooting to keep it fast like a pc does.
you would have to spend a minimum of at least 400.00 to get a mac mini that could run parallels. I just can't see the point.
it was a battle to sync files between my mac and pc. ms's software sucked as sometimes files did not sync. dropbox took care of that.
I like my mac at home for general use. but it would be a hassle to use it with vcarve day in and out.
you can't move files on a mac that I was able to figure out. you can't hit the delete key to delete a file. for manipulating files a pc does it better.
tho9ugh it irked me to have to get my avg subscription renewed just for the work pc.
one reason I got into mac's is voiceover. my wife is blind and she is tired of the problems Jaws her speech software causes. ti s 1200.00 a mac mini is 600 and you get voiceover and a mac for 1/2 the price.
of course now she wants a iphone since they speak now too.

[navigator7]

@ Alison,
Mac Users follow a religion of peace.
(I'd still watch out for any male Mac user age 17 to 40)
Not that there is anything wrong with that.

6592

[magic]

We also shoot & edit teaching DVDs

The mac is so much faster then a PC, in this case.

Iy appears that the PC is constantly looking through every file on the computer before ir renders footage but the Mac does what it's told.

The units in the shop for the bot are both PC and they run fast enough to do the job BUT one of them has Vista, which is another story.

[gabepari]

All I will say is that I have Macs at home and PC's in the shop.

They are both great machines, built for different but overlapping purposes. The Mac OS is what sold me for home use, my 4 year old has no problems finding his way around. He loads up iTunes, checks out a few of his favorite photos on iPhoto, and then rocks out to whatever the kids listen to these days while playing on his favorite website (www.clubpenguin.com (http://www.clubpenguin.com)). Without any help or instruction from anyone. I won't let him anywhere near my PC at the shop. As much as I like Macs, I couldn't pay the mortgage if it wasn't for the software availability of the PC.

But enough with this PC-Mac stuff, let's start a REAL debate!!! HP vs TI
I'm an HP guy since 1984. I have 7 HP calcs plus the 48g emulator on my iPhone

[adrianm]

HP V TI?

Commodore vs Atari is where the real action is. ;)

[gabepari]

I have 2 C-64's and a C-128 in the attic. Complete with 300baud modems
I never could afford an Amiga, but my spoiled friends had them


Gabe

[mikeacg]

Timex Sinclair Rules! I started on a Radio Shack TRS-80 with 4k of memory but then I got the Timex with its massive 16k!!!!
I also have a complete Commodore system in the backroom along with a large box of software.

Mike

[jseiler]

I was shocked at how much my college HP 15C was worth on ebay.

[joe]

This debate reminds me which is best Ford or Chevy. Silly wasn't it!

We're so Dang spoiled. Running computerized routers, pushed by electronic boxes. As a young fellow, I'd never thought we'd ever be doing any of this. Come on now!

There's going to be tough times ahead for all of us. It's likely the economy will be slow to recover and some of us may not make it. I'd like to see more posts on creative ways to put our routers to work. And some positive support between us.

Joe

I'll save a few 8" post hole for you!

[navigator7]

Which is best?
Toyota!
;-)

[knight_toolworks]

how about this for something different.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=125057

[joe]

Good going Steve. I like seeing creative work like this.

[navigator7]

Joe wrote: "I'd like to see more posts on creative ways to put our routers to work. And some positive support between us. "

I'm in!
I've got a Pet Peeve where I think ShopBots could be utilized.

Knobs. Especially cheap knobs!

I work in a rural ranching farming community in construction.
It seems like much of the tools we use are missing knobs or handles.
Vice grips, JB weld, and other stop gaps are used to until the shaft threads are worn off and the tool no longer functions.

I can't think of a better tool to create split molds where a fella could insert bolts and nuts (Inch and metric) of varying sizes into which epoxy or plastics could be poured.
Table saws, chop saws, skilsaws, bandsaws, and in my case many farm implements and jobsite excavation equipment have knobs, backer nuts and do-dads missing from them. The stands that support mitre saws have little hand knobs to adjust elevations for boards and to adjust sliders that invariably get damaged moving the tool around, the knobs fall off, get lost, a half inch nut and bolt replace the hand knob and that is the last time anybody is willing to use the feature because finding a wrench is a PIA!

Taking it a step further, the local Ace and Do-It-Best hardware stores are the source for everything here and they are remarkably sterile. Everything is "get-able" but few customers are willing to take the time and place an order for a knob.

"3 days to a week" is the standard answer when ordering stuff.

I can envision a sign board engraved with your name and number showing a variety of split molds with different knob shapes and designs. A guy might be able to incorporate his logo into the mold??

Not only knobs could be sold but the molds themselves!

Another possibility letters and numbers. At the store I mention above, only the flimsiest and cheapest lettering is available and seldom in sizes that do any good.
A letter and number board showing the possibilities plus a colorful first rate house number sign might be great advertising.

A guy with a keen eye for this sort of stuff could address specific products and even label the knob mold.

The molds can turn scrap into a products that keep producing. Also serve for overflow if you ever mixed to much epoxy or plastic.

Is this what you were looking for Joe?

[navigator7]

Here are positives
Negatives are just as easy.
Brainstorming:


6593