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View Full Version : Cutting cabinet parts-Help!



jeffp
04-18-2008, 02:52 PM
We purchased a used Shopbot a couple of years ago thinking that we would use it to cut cabinet parts out of 3/4" melamine. The guys used it for a few small jobs, now it pretty well sits. They typically use the sliding table saw, a ritter double lineboar, and a castle pocket cutter. The guys tell me that it is too slow. I think it is a PRT 60X144. It has two routers mounted in it, and a 15 hp hold down vacuum. I need to decide whether to keep it and use it (I may have to get schooled up on it better myself), or sell it, as all it is doing now is keeping some shop dust off the floor!
At some point, I would love to explore the creative stuff, but right now I need it to cut parts out of 3/4" particleboard with either melamine or laminate surfaces. A few questions:
Do you think that I need to make any upgrades such as software, motors, controls to make it faster? If so, what are the approximate costs?
Although the two routers are loud, they seem to work ok. Do I need spindles? Does anybody use a shopbot to produce runs of cabinets?

I am going to try to make the Jamboree in Missouri (I am in Cedar Rapids, Iowa), but I would like to be a bit smarter than what I am going into it. I appreciate any feedback that you can share.

Jeff

thewoodcrafter
04-18-2008, 03:10 PM
Jeff,
I use my PRT-4896 Alpha to cut cabinets. I have a spindle and a second Z for drilling.
I would think an upgrade to a spindle and the 4G control board would be required to get some speed out of the machine.
I build mostly frameless cabinets so we use blind dado construction. I drill all the holes on 32mm system with the second Z. Works well.
Anything you can get the machine to do will save time in production.

terryd
04-18-2008, 08:25 PM
Jeff,
At the risk at sounding heartless I think you need to upgrade your guys. The short of the long story is I had seven guys and in the end I had one. The production level stayed the same and quality improved to the point whereby I upsold my products for more profit. The cost will be a business slump until you learn how to use the machine then learn how to depend on it like you do with your guys now.. All the parts in 90 percent of the cabinets are pretty much common so once you invest the time to toolpath these parts you can use very low cost labour who really wants to work instead of the current breed on prima donna cabinet makers. E-mail me offline and I will elaborate further.

bleeth
04-19-2008, 08:35 AM
Jeff: While the guys are cutting on the saw and drilling on the Ritter and boring on the Castle the Shop bot is sitting idle.
While the Shop-bot is cutting, drilling, and boring the guys can stand there with their thumbs in their you know whats or be working on edgebanding, countertops, toekicks, shelves, assembly or whatever.
Put a spindle on the cutting head, an air drill on the second head, upgrade the board and weld the y frames. Then decide which two of your guys need to look for another job.

jeffp
04-19-2008, 12:00 PM
This is great information. Pleease elaborate a bit about the upgrade sthat you suggest. What is welding the "Y" frame? In rough numbers, what is the cost of doing these upgrades?

beacon14
04-19-2008, 05:36 PM
What software are you using now? The machine will cut parts as is although the upgrades will help once you have a system down but the bottleneck quickly becomes getting files to the machine. You or one of your guys will have to learn how to create cutting files whether that means drawing parts and toolpathing them or using a package program. I would concentrate on that before putting any upgrades into the machine.

bleeth
04-20-2008, 08:58 AM
Jeff: The PRT maximum cutting speed when cutting through 3/4" substrate is restricted by the lack of stiffness in the gantry where the cross beams are bolted to the end plates. The 4g upgrade will allow you to cut and jog smoother and faster than the original control board, but you won't be able to use the increased speed for cutting unless the unit is stiffened. The quickest and easiest way to do this is to make sure youre gantry is square and then weld it. You will then be able to go from around 1.75 ips cutting up to around 4 ips. There has been much written about this on the forum.
All of the other items are availible straight from Shop-bot. The whole package will cost you around 6 weeks pay of one man.
Dave's point on software for cutting files is valid. In my shop we primarily use the bot when doing cabinets for the sides and cut misc. parts that require little or no machining on the saw. I have Artcam and keep a library of cabinet sides and have saved a toolpath template for machining them. Now that it is set up for most sizes we cut I knock out the nesting and toolpathing for a typical job of 20-30 boxes in less than half an hour. Artcam Insignia (new around $3500.00) will do this nicely. A lower cost, dedicated to boxes only, program has been developed by Ryan Patterson who now works at Shop-bot and can be seen at www.cabinetpartspro.com (http://www.cabinetpartspro.com)

jhicks
04-20-2008, 01:12 PM
I think the "guys" who used it for a few small jobs probably recognize the machine will be more efficient and then they will need to keep busy keeping up with the output. Conspiring to hold on to jobs rather than upgrading their skills is not that uncommon. After all, this is the way we've always done it.
Get to work, learn how the machine works, run some parts, and learn how to make it happen. Then you will realize the only "benefits" questions will be "what do the employee benefits cost?" and "what do the machine benefits cost?"
Get the skilled labor using their skills and let the robots do the repetitive work.
We have a 60X 120PRT, home made vacuum table, and a 5HP spindle with ascension/g code system. Cuts cabinet parts all day long in 3/4 prefinished ply, melamine, hardwood elements, etc all with 1 5mm bit, never change bits, just sheets and the guys can edgeband, assemble carcasses etc while its running on average 30 to 40 minutes per sheet at 160IPM with good parts and no more guesswork and it still keeps ahead of the assembly operations.
Dust that baby off and get her goin!

jeffp
04-21-2008, 02:31 PM
It is unbelievable all of the great advice that I have received. I really appreciate it all. My hunch is that the shopbot will be sticking around, but I will need to upgrade it to make it better/faster. I appears like a good start may be to do the 4G Gekko upgrade, and then look for a spindle. Here are some pics of what I have
6636
6637
6638
6639
6640
6641
6642

jeffp
04-21-2008, 03:04 PM
Wow, I don't know what I did wrong posting the pics, but if you scroll, you will see them.
Thanks,
Jeff

thewoodcrafter
04-21-2008, 03:19 PM
That looks like an older PRT.
One vacuum zone?
You may want to rethink that.
I have 6 on mine with 15HP regen blower and have trouble sometimes holding small parts with some zones closed.
I am re-doing my table to gasket each zone. This may help.
I have a 3HP spindle and sometime wish I had a 5HP.

daski
04-21-2008, 08:44 PM
We are now using the bot to cut our cabinet parts. We have two feins with a two zone table. We resurface about every 40 sheets or so. The PC router works great at 10000RPM with a centurion 1/4" compression at 1.8 IPS cutting in two passes. I mounted a Hitachi mixing drill on our second head and use 5mm bits for all our holes. Design is done in ECabinets, then into Excel then Auotcad for RTA fittings, shelf and door holes and finally PW for pathing. Yeah its work but its a lot lighter than 96 lbs/sheet 3/4" melamine. We don't fight the vaccuum anymore. all small parts are cut from scraps on a saw, it's just easier. If you need help email me. We find that we need to sand the edge that gets taped,2 or 3 strokes with a block, to take off some of the fuzzies. The final job looks great.

gene
04-22-2008, 01:17 AM
Jeff,
One thing i bet is that the guys that work for you are youre friends. That is where i made a big mistake that cost me a small fortune . Friends that have been working for you a long time get too comfortable . They figure that you wont fire them because of that friendship, and then they get lax in their performance. with the risk of peeing them off, you need to explain that the friendships stop at the door, and that there is to be a boss -worker relationship when they enter or maybe a team type relationship. when it all boils down if there is not a change in management then sooner or later there will be no jobs there for anyone. Some 25 yrs ago i worked for a company and worked with the 2 owners directly . They hired a boss to run the company and at the time i thought that this was the strangest thing i ever had heard of, Now i understand it clearly,Definately get your buisness plan and youre manifacturing plan laid out so all the employees understand their position and what is expected of each of them as individuals and as a team . i use my bot to do like alot of others on this site . once you get a library of parts then it gets alot easier to let the bot cut parts for you. we have even cut and stock parts like cabinet ends and things like that so when we get ready to do a set the guys only have to cut the width parts and start building cabinets. Pedro ( thats my bots name) dont need anyone to stand and watch him , you can keep a ear out for him if he needs help he will make a noise thats not familure and then check on him once in a while. meanwhile let the other guys in the shop build boxes or edgeband or putty or sand or finish .theres enough that pedro cant do so thats their job , he knows his , explain theirs to them.... Good luck . o yea i had to cut the friend loose after 10 + years....