Cabinet parts pro

[steve_fedor]

Is Ryan on vacation? I've sent two requests for tec. support with-out a reply. I'am having a problem cutting pocket holes. The first 3 are slots, the next 2 are cut in reverse and the last 2
are correct. I'am doing test cuts for a cabinet back. Thx Steve

[loriny]

Ryan is working on it. I had the same problem a couple weeks ago. Don't worry. He will get us straightened out.

[Gary Campbell]

Steve...
What version are you running? (Help) (About)

There are some bugs that are being worked out. Ryan is very good at responding to emails, assuming he is near a computer.

Gary

[Ryan Patterson]

Steve and Lorin you have mail.

The pocket hole issue has been corrected.

[john_hartman]

When you guys say reverse, you mean in "climb"? I've been working with this program for 2.5days with mixed issues. Ryan is really good at helping and getting back to you though. I finally started cutting out a paying project today and had a couple weird thing happen. One was an 1/8 elongate notch on a couple of parts and the other was this cutting in reverse. I just sent him an email about them..

Are any of you guys using a single z for both drilling peg holes and milling? If so how are you getting around the bit change? Ryan is supposed to write me a post processor piece to give me a pause to change bits. I can't be the first who has wanted to this. On this project I had to save a million separate tool paths for each sheet instead of one file per sheet...

[Gary Campbell]

John...
I interpreted reverse as sloped in the opposite direction when cuting pocket slots.

As far as your cutting in reverse, check your template for that layer and double check that conventional is checked rather than climb. If that was not the case, try and repeat it, and email Ryan.

You should easily be able to add the pause after the drilling in the end of new segment section. I have just done post processor testing with output for 2 drills, and 2 spindles on the A & Z axes, including a climb/conventional onion skin 2 pass cut, all output to a single file.

Cabinet Parts Pro has one of the simplest post processor systems that I have seen, they are by far the easiest to configure for multiple tools, and have the ability to output every cutting or dilling file for a sheet to a single file.
Gary

[steve_fedor]

Ryan sent me a revised version of the software to correct issue. I will update today & do a trial run. With regards to a 3/4" cabinet back, it appears the blind dado technique can only be applied to the top & bottom of the cabinet box and to use pocket screws to secure the sides to avoid a panel flip. If anyone has a different approach I'am all ears. It would be nice to avoid using pocket screws on the back.
Thank you for your responses.

[john_hartman]

Gary, I'm pretty new at using this machine. I wouldn't have the first clue on how to set up the post processor to create a pause. I don't suppose you have en example of something like this?

Here's another issue, when cutting dados it stops short of cutting all the way through the end of the side. So it leaves two little rounded fillets at both ends of the dado. The issue I just experienced was in trying to open yesterdays job; it gives me a "run time error 9" script out of range... What does this mean? I guess I'm just trying to see if I'm provoking these error or if its the software. I'm running a new beta version 15...

[ken_rychlik]

Steve, I use pocket holes only on showing end cabinets. That is for nailers, or full backs either way. I have a pocket hole machine and there is no way the bot will keep up with it. The rest of them just get a few screws ran in from the outside. Nobody's gonna see what is between two cabinets anyway.

I build face frame cabinets and I use some pocket screws on the non showing sides to quickly attach the sides of the boxes to them as well.

I tried Ryan's program, but went another route.

Ryan seemd like a nice guy and responded quickly to the few emails I sent him though.

I have each cabinet part desined in vetric and only select the toolpaths I need for that particular part. The holes and all dados are on the file, but each is saved as a different tool path. I group the tool paths that I want and run the parts.

Kenneth

[benchmench]

I've been using CPPRO blind dado joinery for some time now and it has worked out very well. There is the fillet issue that John mentions but the 1/8" fillet is easily removed with a chisel until a better solution is available. If you use a micrometer to set your material thickness in "settings" and allow a few thousandths for glue, the program calculates dado and tenon perfectly.

With blind dado assembly, you can use screws/glue through the outside or clamps and glue for finished ends.

[Gary Campbell]

Steve...
I have been building "imaginary" cabinets and auditing the parts and their sizes. Hundreds of them. The good news is that there are virtually thousands of combinations available using the contruction options. The bad news is, that all of these combinations, even tho they can be drawn, do not end up as a viable part. The blind dados and back dado combination is one of these.

If you look at the rendered parts you should find that: to place a dado for the back on the top or bottom of a cabinet (as per the options of CPPro) requires cutting with the inside of the panel UP. Cutting a blind dado (as per CPPro) requires cutting with the Outside up. This is an obvious conflict. I have found that the only way that blind dados AND back dados will work together is if the blind dados are the same thickness as the material, which negates the need to have the part oriented with the outside up. Another work around is to cut the blind dados and either reregister the part for the dado or cut those few on with a dado or shaper cutter.

John...
Here is a simple example of this: I simply added the SB command "PAUSE" after the command to turn off the drill output. You need to be aware that the tool will be located at its last move position and you may want to add the J2 line( as I did to show you) using your desired location to change bits. Hope this helps.

6786

Kenneth...
Like you, I tried CPPro about a year and a half ago, and went another route. Since then my son and I have tried demo or evaluation versions from over 20 cabinet design software companies priced from $1,500 to $15,000. Many of the higher priced programs did a great job of the presentation graphics needed to possibly sway a customer. Few, if any, of them had the ability to produce a cut file. I was enlightened by David Buchsbaum on Cabinet Vision, which does all, and very well, I might add. Unfortunately, we dont have the $20K+ at this time to spend on design software.

I downloaded the latest version of CPPro, and was pleasantly surprised. Most of the features that were missing when I set it aside a year and a half ago were now included. As our needs and experience increased, so has our needs in software. I contacted Ryan and he informed me of the recently added custom scripting ability in the program and sent me an example. After examining dozens of other software packages, I have a newfound enthusiasm for CPPro.

I have now spent 10 days of evenings with CPPro. The learing curve is not short, but is much shorter than most of the others we looked at. It has many options, maybe too many, but is able to cut any straight lined cabinet part I have imagined. If a modification to a part is needed, it will export to Vectric or Delcam software as a layered DXF for modifications and nesting there.

The program has a few glitches. All that I have sent info on to Ryan have been fixed in short order. I will find more as I look deeper. If more sent this same info, there would be few if any glitches left.

Now that I have 10 days into the software, and have our settings refined and checked for accuracy, I can tell you that I have seen no other software that will do what this bargain priced software will do.

Once we had the options set to our specs, I did a test run of 10 cabinets (a small kitchen) the job went from cabinet entry, nesting and toolpathed to .SBP file ready to cut in under 3 minutes. Nothing I have seen under $10K will come close. You might want to take another look at it, spend some time working with it, and help work the bugs out, a small time investment may pay back great dividends.

Gary

[cabnet636]

gary i have really enjoyed our conversations on this and am learning a lot more about my cpp as a result, keep it up as i am not spending 23.000.00 to up grade my cabnetware to cnc i am in the same boat lol

got the jig and am on fire to rig it up spent ther last hour just starin at how best to move one of my router heads 1.25 inches

jim

[john_hartman]

Gray, thanks for writing the example. I have to look into this further to better understand how this all works.

Are you serious about the other cabinet software! How can that be. I figured I would use CPP as a stepping stone into some more 3d capable software like KCDW or Cabinet Pro. I guess that means that when Ryan gets all the bugs worked out that this software will at least triple in price, at least it should.

Dan, I actually spoke to Ryan this afternoon about a few bugs including the 1/8" fillets. I use 1/4" rabited backs on most of my work. I also a 3/8" bit to cut everything. To get a 1/4" rabit using "back dado", I type -.125 for Inset and .375 for dado width.

So I did the same thing with the "blind/full dado". Type -.25 in "stop" and that should make the dado go beyond the end of the cabinet side. Does that make sense?

[john_hartman]

Gary, thanks for writing the example. I have to look into this further to better understand how this all works.

Are you serious about the other cabinet software! How can that be. I figured I would use CPP as a stepping stone into some more 3d capable software like KCDW or Cabinet Pro. I guess that means that when Ryan gets all the bugs worked out that this software will at least triple in price, at least it should.

Dan, I actually spoke to Ryan this afternoon about a few bugs including the 1/8" fillets. I use 1/4" rabited backs on most of my work. I also a 3/8" bit to cut everything. To get a 1/4" rabit using "back dado", I type -.125 for Inset and .375 for dado width.

So I did the same thing with the "blind/full dado". Type -.25 in "stop" and that should make the dado go beyond the end of the cabinet side. Does that make sense?

[Gary Campbell]

John...
Yes it makes sense, in fact it is my prefered method. I like being able to run the dado box beyond the part borders, as you get cleaner cut parts.

All of us do everything in different ways, one of the advantages to CPPro is that the ability for us as enduser to find a workaround and "trick" the settings into doing what we want has not been prohibited by the programmer. Thats the good news. The bad news is that we are also not prohibited from doing what we dont want! The software is not dummy proof. Please dont ask me how I know this.

Gary

[ken_rychlik]

Gary, thanks for the input. I have only had the bot for 3 weeks, so my thougths of what I need are sure to change. I have worked with quite a few cad design programs and the other program operates much like what i am used to. I guess thats the main reason I went that way.

Also I am still planning to keep using my panel saw to bust sheets down to more managable sizes. I have to much trouble loading a full sheet without scratching it, and a half sheet is much easier to throw on by myslef.

I am using the bot for the cabinet sides with the dados, shelf holes and rabbets, but the flat straight parts are just faster and easier on the table saw for me at this point. I want to use each tool for what it is best at.

The blind dado's interest me, but what I am seeing is the acuracy of my machine is not quite good enough on the depth of the tounge. Dado width is dead on and I'm sticking with that for now.

I can say after three weeks time on the machine, I am re-arranging the shop and getting rid of one of my cabinet saws. lol

[ken_rychlik]

Oh and I am waiting on the Gary Campbell, CPP for dummies to come in print. I mean step by step quick easy instructions. lol

[Gary Campbell]

Kenneth..
You are dead on about the changes that come with experience.

As mine did, your idea of what parts you cut on the bot will increase. As you realize your machines potential, and the ability to have each part customized to your methods, you will add these to the cut lists.

If you get consistant, but off depth readings a depth adjustment can be added for a dado layer. You DO have to be carefull that you have your material thickness entered both correctly and consistantly. If this is true, then first adjust the dado depth to add or subtract to get the depth you require. If all these are correct and you still have problems, then a depth adjustment can be added to a "special" dado post processor and you will get the correct depth.

Dont defer possible addition, subtraction and entry "errors" to machine error. IF the machine is told to cut to -0.375 and properly zeroed, that is where it cuts. There may be 5 or more variable inputs that got the tool to its cutting depth, 1 or more could be off.

There will be no print version... but I did hear a rumor that there may be a CPPro forum in the works.... heck....BOTH of my typing fingers got sore just on this post!
Gary

[benchmench]

John, Gary,

Yes, manipulating the backset makes sense for faceframe cabinets but you wouldn't have a blind dado anymore for frameless cabinets with edgebanding. You would have a slot in the front that couldn't be edgebanded.

Extending the dado an extra 1/8" (or user selectable)at the back of the dado would probably solve this problem.

[Gary Campbell]

Dan...
I think we are talking about 2 different things. John(and I) were talking about a 1/4" dado (rabbet) at the back edge of a side or top/bottom. That is where I prefer to have a negative offset on an oversized dado.

What you say about the dado for a side to top/bottom connection is very true. There are some issues in CPPro conncerning dado locations, especially as different options are selected. Not having enough overcut so that the bit fillet in the corner impedes proper assembly has been an ongoing issue. Hopefully that is on the list of soon to be fixed items.
Gary

[john_hartman]

Gary, How are you zeroing your sheet goods. I know Ed Lang has this fixed offset point to zero the table surface while material is on the table. So then you zz the top of the material you are cutting.

What I'm realizing is that there are variances between the same thinkness of sheet goods. For example a 1/2" ply from Columbia Forest Products can be .472 to .495. This isn't a big deal when cutting all the way through but for dado there can be differences in depth. What is the most effective way to quickly and acturately zero evrything?

[Gary Campbell]

John...
I use a jig... the same jig as in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7M1mMhOvr0&feature=channel_page

The zeroing file uses a consistant distance with a VA command. As soon as it is available, sheet thickness will be shown in CPPro postP to allow postP adjustment to the depth. This will also allow, by selection of the correct postP, cutting of 1/2 and 1/4 material without a rezero.

The short answer is if your sheetgoods average .735... find a piece that thick and always use that for the zero. Keep your materials set to that number. Then adjust dado depth as needed. If you start jumping all over the place following variations in the materials, you will get lost.

Another tip: if you want to sort your parts... or put them on different materials of the same thickness, but different types.. one side good, 2 side etc. Give them a depth .001 more or less than your actual. this allows you to sort certain parts to certain sheets that are the same thickness. Even if you have 10 different thickness', it will only affect the distance cut into the spoilboard.

Shelves could go to 2 side PF, Sides to 1 side PF with inside up, tops & bottoms to 1 side PF with inside down. This opens up many $ saving options over the original idea of cutting all parts out of the same 2 sided PF material. We currently have a $37 per sheet difference from 3/4 2SPF to 1/4 1SPF. Wasnt that long a go that a sheet of 3/4 was that price.
Gary

[cabnet636]

don't you guys zero z off the top of the sheet with an aluminum plate, we have a 1/2" aluminum block and when bit touches (touchmac) bit is retracted to .75 and z reads .75, i have been under the impression shopbot software does the same.

gary send me the latest

jim

[cabnet636]

sorry gary just watched video, this is same method for me,

jim

[john_hartman]

All of this gets confusing very quickly.. So that jig is for .75" material then you have to re-adjust for .5 and .25 material; right? So do you have a jig for those thicknesses too? Or do you simply MZ the new thickness?

In CPP I have 3/4" ply set .74, 1/2" ply set at .48 & 1/4" set at .25. By zeroing the table then using the aluminum plate to rezero the material top surface, the bit should cut my dados at a constant depth and cut all the way through into the spoilboard by what ever the difference might be in sheet thinkness; right?

[Gary Campbell]

John...
Think of it this way.... My jig zeros to .74 so all 3/4 material would be set at .74 thickness. this will allow consistant dado depth. If testing shows they are too deep or shallow, adjust the dado depth settings. The bit will cut thru the material with those settings.

When using a thinner material, say .48 the cut depth will be .48. I would put an addition to the postP that tells the CNC to cut to "{the z depth)- .26}" (.26 is the difference between .74 and .48) The bit will still cut thru the material and all dados are accurate. This is true because the software assumed that you zeroed on top of the .48 material prior to cutting. The same would hold true with .25 material.

When we have the thickness output available for the postP these adjustments can be made automatically for you so that a rezero is not needed.

Another side benefit will be that you can have a messagebox appear at the beginning of the file that says "LOAD A SHEET OF */* MATERIAL FACE {UP/DOWN}" I feel this would help on some multi sheet jobs
Gary

[cabnet636]

my hope is ryan will set us up with a phbb forum on cabinetparts pro, i moderate one and it would not only help ryan but all end users as well we would tthen be teaching each other, shopbots forum may be well enough but i know there are other end users that are gcode based. i am one

jim

[nat_wheatley]

A CabinetPartsPro forum would be ideal.

I use the program, almost daily, in a production environment. It's been able to nest and cut parts, including every machining operation I've needed to perform, on a cabinet box. I have cut a lot of cabinet parts with it.

That said, I have a great deal of time into figuring it out and setting it up to suit my needs, many e-mails to Ryan. He has made a lot of changes, and it is running much smoother than when I started, but it still can be awkward at spots. There are parts that still do require some 'figuring out'.

The program is almost there. The forum would be the ideal way for users to give their input to help Ryan refine things. If he continues/finishes tidying things up I'll highly recommend the program any chance I get.
It's on the the edge of being extremely good for the application it serves, and I'm hoping the forum would give it that last 'nudge' to get it there.

Ryan, thank you for all the work you've done on it.

[john_hartman]

Gary, I have read and re-read your explanation and think I get it. I will need to think through the logic as I'm entering the settings and start to test. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

The CPP forum would be great. It might help Ryan out the start here by listing every problem we come across to help each other self diagnose. Chances are one of us have already found the problem, Ryan fixed but only that user knows about the solution. There are some things which Ryan uncovers that turn out to be a mistake on my end. That problem could be logged for future reference for a new user to free up Ryan's customer service time, which is outstanding I might add, to actually fix new bugs that come up..

[Gary Campbell]

John...
All of this is for the near future, not the present. Getting your settings, especially those that pertain to the construction options, material thickness' and dado dimensions, if you use them, set correctly and consistantly, is critical.

Take the construction options for example. They let you determine how the back is attached to the 2 sides, top and bottom. There are 288 possible combinations for the tops, bottoms backs and dado sides (3*3*4*8) and four options for the backs. That give a total of 1152 total possible combinations.

I can only come up with 9 ways to attach a back to the box including all dado combinations. Combinations of inset, with or without dados yields only 25 viable options. What this means is that there are possibly over 1000 combinations that you could select that would not return a viable part. I am sure that Ryan does not agree with this, or he wouldn't have included this many options. As the programmer he added these because all of us dont work or think the same way. As a cabinetmaker I am sure that I could never think like a programmer. Until I met Ryan, I would have thought the two groups were mutually exlusive.

I hadn't looked at at CPPro for 18 months prior to downloading version 8.4.10 a month ago. It didn't take that long to get up to speed and it is going to work well for us, assuming we get the same service on the little bug fixes in the future that have been taking place lately. After the first week I have been trying to hunt down any of those little glitches and emailing them to Ryan.

There is also going to be an undocumented feature of great value to those who learn the software. You will be able to have written for you at a very moderate cost, custom scripts that will allow you to add or change virtually anything that is possible in the programming language, and add this to the application as a user option that you can toggle at will. This is of extreme value to our mostly custom business.

Thanks again, Ryan

[handh]

I have been using Cabinet Parts Pro ever since I first got my Shopbot 2 1/2 years ago. I will say this, Ryan has always gave 100 percent to customer service. If you ever needed anything fixed or requested a improvement it has been handled ASAP. Two thumbs up for Ryan.