Are Longer Shopbot Courses Available Anywhere?

[gerryv]

Does anyone know if any longer courses are available for the Shopbot hardware and/or software or Vectric software? Perhaps a week or two or even more as long as it was highly focused on CNC routing from scratch.

An alternative could be a much longer one where CNC routing in integrated into a fine woodworking/furniture course.

[gerryv]

Hm-m-m, I wonder if there would be a market for one or a few of the mentors on the forum to offer a 4.5 day beginners program? Having been in that business for a number of years, it pays pretty darned well (once you've put together the program). with one trainer, I'd be comfortable with say four learners around the table for something like $750 plus materials. For a trainer whose comfortable with multi-tasking, it could work well alternating between full group show-tell-show-answer sessions and splitting the group between two on the table and the other two on a couple of PC's setting up files and running simulations. Who knows, you, might even be able to convince guys like me to jam my Buddy in an SUV or trailer and bring along an extra machine.

I guess this is beginning to look like some heavy-duty beggin' an' pleadin' isn't it :-)

Imagine how bad it is for those poor devils who bought some brand that doesn't even have the benefit of a great forum...

[billp]

Gerald,
This certainly is not a new concept, but maybe I can give some first hand insight as to why it's not as easy to set up as it might sound.....
First is the nature of the beast. In the last 12-15 years CNC machines have evolved from large, industrial, point to point 2D "shape cutters" into
flexible instruments which are now extensions of an operators imagination. We are no longer limited to flat panel products, and we are also no longer limited in our choices of approaches to each, and every project.
A major factor here is the incredible advancement in the field of software over this time period.Years ago you HAD to be a "programmer"to even make your machine do the most basic of moves. Now we can "wizard" our way into flowing, organic shapes, and somewhere in the background these wizards DO all of the programming for us !
This has not only offered access to a much wider group of operators, it's changed the focus, goals, and output of people who are now running CNC machines out of back rooms, garages, and previously unused shop space.
Everyone will certainly need to understand the basic concepts of moving the machine, and generating tool paths. But now that I have been working with a Shopbot for over ten years I have seen an incredibly wide range of expertise, and applications of the tool. In fact due to my travels in the "Camp circuit"I have probably been in more different Shopbot environments than almost anyone outside of Durham so I'm basing my view here on what I have seen/heard from people using the machine every day.
There IS a two day training class offered at Shopbot's headquarters, (and now also on the West coast as well). This will get someone "up and running"with the machine. Beyond that it IS possible to have someone from Shopbot come to your shop and give you specific training for your needs. You can contact Durham directly for info on that process...
After that there are occasional classes/seminars offered by various software companies, usually as they are bringing new products, and features into the market.
All of the above is to preface the fact that while there are certain "constants" that most operators will share in common, things have begun to get pretty specific for many people, and at that point the need is almost for a "one to one" mentoring rather than a generic training program.
"Perhaps a week or two or even more" might also be tough to do as many people can not give up that much time from their jobs to attend such training.
And one thing I can also add after having done some of the above mentioned "coaching"is that it's very difficult to put any two adults in a room and expect them to have the same skill levels, or aptitudes, never mind goals. If you'll ask anyone who has ever attended a Camp or Jamboree you'll hear how any single question can generate a thousand different secondary questions which are usually geared towards the personal needs of each person attending.....
The approach I have seen work the best is to have a few people stand around a computer, or Shopbot and pick one another's brains !!! In smaller groups more people can get more accomplished, and with a greater degree of focus.
This is one reason we have been trying so hard to establish the concept of "User groups" around the country/world. The idea is to have someone offer to be at their shop some Saturday and invite people to drop by and "talk 'Bot ". No agenda, no schedule, just hang out and trade ideas, and techniques.
This past Summer David Buchsbaum hosted a similar gathering at his shop after the IWF woodworking show and over twenty people attended!
In fact there will probably be at least one of these events taking place in the next month or two on the East Coast of the US.
We'd like to see MORE of these events, and I will keep promoting the idea at every Camp we hold this year. Having something like this Forum makes it easy for anyone to just pick a date, and TRY it...
I'll be glad to help anyone, anywhere get something like this going. Just contact me at: campshopbot "at" gmail.com

[bcondon]

Thanks Bill,

What I spoke to Ted about a few weeks ago is a 2-3 day class on Aspire. His response is that the application is very user friendly and an extension of the 2D partswork world.

I am glad that I attended the 2 day class because it does give you a kick in the pants to get going. I watch the tutorials and then play... and go back a re-watch the tutorials... and go back and play...

I spent a few hours looking at the tutorials for Aspire and started serious playing around last night. Going from the 2D world to 3D will certainly take some dedicated effort which could be better handled with a two or three day regional class. People could drive to the class and learn over a weekend, thus reducing business down time.

The next area I have interest is "how to speed up the cutting" -or Speeds and Feeds 201.

I created a "simple" sign with a shell and a border. My estimated machine time is 5 hours on the finish pass which seems like a long time for a pretty simple part so learning the "general tricks" to speed things up would be a great topic for class. I also understand that I need to play with the machine, on a simple part and begin to learn "tuning the machine". The goal for my tuning is not to get every ounce out of the machine because the 80-20 rule tends to apply. If I can get an 80% improvement for 20% effort, the last 20% are probably not worth going after on a machine that will generate a wide variety of products. If I was producing one widget, then you could spend the extra time to tune for that one product...

For me, this may just be the need to find a good BOOK that a software engineer (with knowledge of woodworking) can read to adapt to automated speeds and tuning...

Brady... here is your opportunity to write a book

8-)

Thanks!

BC

[angus_hines]

Bob everything you learned in training about Partworks applies in Aspire, except now you have 10 new modeling tools to learn.

The speeds and feeds thing always seems to be a hot topic.

But the only thing I want to know about them is what material was being cut when they factory set the defaults for each tool? Or to ask differently, What density material were they thinking of when they setup the default?

I think with that small piece of info it would make "tuning the machine" much easier.

Sorry bout that didnt mean to hijack this thread with that question

[billp]

Angus,
Good point about how learning one version of software "carries over" to another version. In reality most of the software that Shopbotters are currently using was all developed by one person anyway.....
When you come down to the Florida Camp we can go over a bunch of those settings with you. ( But DO bring a fishing rod in case you need an occasional break.....).
Following up on my earlier post you can imagine the challenge the software developers have these days when they have NO idea if someone is going to use their product(s) to cut foam, or marble ( or maybe both in the same session...). So I think they simply post a "benchmark bit speed", knowing that each operator will wind up having to change that speed for each individual project (and sometimes even within the same project...).

[myxpykalix]

Gerald,
I don't know about some of these programs but you might contact Ron Varela for training on a wide variety from hardware to software. It's worth the price of an email or phone call to figure out if something is doable.

[beacon14]

Well, now that you mention it I would be interested in hosting a class of this nature. I'm envisioning 4 or 5 students in an intensive 5 or 6 day program covering the following topics:

Solid wood machining
Sheet material machining
Bit selection/feed speeds/spindle speeds
VCarve/Partworks software
ShopBot software including programming
ShopBot mechanics and maintenance
Jigs and fixtures
Hold down methods

The curriculum would be a mix of projects designed just for the class, items requested by students, and actual production of projects for my custom work.

If there is enough interest I could add a number of woodworking and cabinetmaking topics into the mix (or do a separate class). As a bonus I'd give each student one evening session to devote to his/her specific agenda including full use of the wood shop.

How much interest is there in this type of offering and how much do you think it would be worth? I'm located in Atlanta GA.

[k4mg]

I'm interested in this kind of training. I will soon have a Buddy 48 with a 4' Powerstick (arriving 2/6 week). I am a hobbiest, not a business person, so I will leave it to others to determine what it should cost.

I have had a small cnc machine for 6 months, but want to make larger projects, which is why I ordered a Buddy BT48.

I like your cams, will you be at the R. Ball ShopBot Camp tomorrow?

Barry

[myxpykalix]

David,
This sounds like an interesting idea and you might want to develop the course outline in more detail and post it with tuition because anyone interested would have to consider travel and lodging for 6-8 days in the price to make a decision but it does sound like something people like me would be interested in.

[gerryv]

I'd certainly make the trek down from Ontario. Taking nothing away from the two-day programs now offered, I know the value and benefits of taking things to the next step in building a strong foundation to work from. Coming from 30+ years as a tech teacher, corp. training director and training consultant I appreciate the need for both types of programs. IMHO what David has outlined could easily be spread over 5 or 6 days without being forced to branch off into individual interests to any significant degree. One only needs to look at David's web-site to be inspired.

[myxpykalix]

The thought of going to a class where you start with the design process and follow your project to a completed part is what would be interesting to me and teaching me to make something that i've never made before.

[ron_varela]

Jack I have online training for the last 9 years

www.rngengravers.com (http://www.rngengravers.com)

[woodworx]

I'll host the session. Anyone want to come to southern California? It's 75 degrees right now!

[gerryv]

Hey Justin, 75 degrees eh. I'm freezing up here . How about I toss my Buddy in a trailer along with a bunch of video production stuff, find a safe little spot for my wife and I to rent for 3 or 4 months and we can co-produce a set of top-notch high-definition training videos. At 75 degrees I'll even sweep your floor regularly for free. I could even test my wave energy desalinator in front of some silly fool's house that's not home because they've come up here for the snow. Ah well, nice to dream eh!
:-)

[woodworx]

Believe it or not this would work. I personally think this is a better idea than people traveling cross country for weeks to learn something they could learn in the comfort of there own shop. I have a beautiful place you could rent, 1 mile from the beach.

[myxpykalix]

Having worked in movies and television and video for over 20 years I could use a "working" vacation....Let me know if you want a "collaborator".

[gerryv]

Thinking..., thinking...

[bcondon]

Gerald, come to Boston! It is a balmy 2 degrees F this morning. We are up to 18 so I am ready for a quick dip in the ocean

[beacon14]

OK, I'm ready to get the ball rolling on this if there is enough interest.

I think it would be prudent to start with say a 2 or maybe 3 day class, that way it could be on a weekend or a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I have the weekends of March 20-22 and March 27-29 open.

I like the idea of 4 or 5 students at a cost of around $200 per student per day, but I am open to suggestions.

So, if you are interested, please respond to me via e-mail (click my name on the left, my e-mail address is listed in my profile), with as much info as you care to impart, but at least with the following:

Preferred dates.
Preferred number of days.
Desired level of focus - beginner, intermediate, advanced.
Types of projects you are interested in learning about.

Sorry I can't make any promises about the weather (except that we will have some) and I'm not near a beach, but I can guarantee that you will have your fill of Shopbot specific toolpathing, programming, cutting and general learning.

Any takers?

[gerryv]

David,

I'd certainly be interested. If it were to be a 2 or 3 day clinic, my own interests would be for something that would carry on from the 2-day shopbot course with the primary objective being to get a good foundation to work from. i.e. the machine, SB operating system, actually seeing (and doing) what the various codes are used for and including more common combinations, zeroing, zeroing, zeroing :-), 10 most common mistakes?

Then maybe the last half doing the same with the various Vectric based design programs. Is this starting to sound like more than 2-3 days? (chuckle).

I also recognize that this is really targeted at newbies and chicken to let 'r rip guys like me so the scope may be too narrow or too basic to attract enough people to justify the significant time and effort it takes to put this kind of thing together.