ATTN: TED HALL

[myxpykalix]

I have a favor to ask of you. Along with my purchase of my bot and 2 or 3 other add-ons I purchased a Indexer. Sad to say I haven't been able to get much use out of it because there is little info for the operation and use of it.

Some of the basics "I get" but much of it lacks any documentation to help you understand some of the principles of operation to figure out how to create something.

For example i would like to create a simple rope spiral on a 2.5" diamter using a 2" diameter (1" radius) rope spiraling bit.
I have no clue how to figure out how to do that, or if i have to manually reset to Zero for each pass plus a whole bunch of other questions.

Bill Young has helped alot along with Scott and admittedly some of it is due to my lack of understanding. I am trying out Bill's Rope twister and that may be the answer.

I was wondering if I could prevail upon you to create a few tutorials for the indexer? I think it would help all of us who are languishing and would like to get the most out of this investment. Thanks for your attention and thanks for having such a cool tool!

[mitchjr]

I second that............very cheap on the instructions and why not make a video tutorial.

[cjohnson]

I ran into a similar problem with the probe. Great product, great customer service. I'm just hesitate to use it again because I don't want to break it. A detailed tutorial would be great addition to the Shopbot products.

[ttwark]

How about a users guide that isn't full of incorrect and outdated information?????

[paco]

How about a ShopBot documentation Wiki(s) where users AND SB staff could contribute? Users could get some kind of special "credits" for contribution... while staff get paid!...
I'm aware that SB are somehow sometime overwhelmed... but I do think it doesn't justify "bad" documentation... constructive criticism here; how about helping the ones who help us?!
If SB send me a 5 HP spindle, I may consider a page or two...!
8-D
Seriously, rather than letting good infos get "lost" in the forum threads, why not arranging it in some sort or organized fashion?

[myxpykalix]

I hope i didn't open up the proverbial "can of worms" here, but just these few responses should reinforce the notion that better tutorial info is needed. Frankly I think having good tutorial info would also be a good sales tool. If i was in the market for a indexer and saw some of the cool things you could make with it and have it explained to realize "Hey, i could do that" that would definitely be a major factor in my decision to purchase.

I also have a probe and tried using it and guess what, it broke. I sent it back and they fixed it without a problem but it sits to this day in the box. Maybe the more comments added to this thread might give them a better indication as to the need.
I have seen Ted respond to other threads here and appreciate his willingness to address issues and concerns of his customer base which frankly seperate the Shopbot from other tools I have owned.

[wayneo]

Hi Jack, and others... I don't think your opening a can of worms at all. I also have been greatly disappointed with the documentation for the Indexer and the Probe. I was persistent and worked with Grant (SB) who helped me setup the Indexer. I think I still have his email notes. They cover a span of several months back and forth. I had hoped to work with Grant more on this and put some documentation together, but Grant moved away so we are kind of stuck again.

I am most interested in doing things other than making cylinders or even tapered cylinders. I am looking to make things like varied shapes along a cylindrical axis. Like a Coke Bottle shape where it varies in Z.

Even more specifically, I would like to be able to wrap a 3D relief around a cylindrical shape on the Indexer. A good example would be the fellow that did the 3D leaning tower of pizza (sp). Or let's say a sculpture of a statue or a head where it is 3D carved on all sides. I am sure it can be done. It is just a matter of figuring out how to do it!

This would greatly increase the value of my investment and it should not really be that hard to accomplish!

Just my $0.02 worth. I would certainly be interested in helping further the cause.

Wayneo

[myxpykalix]

Another member (who I have nagged the heck out of) with questions had created a lizard on a log design and that I think would actually be much easier to create than a simple spiral. Seems to me with a carving design you are cutting it straight just like you would laying flat on the table, except the indexer is turning to wrap the object around the cylinder.
Now that may be a oversimplification but what I know about creating spirals is in regards to the Legacy Ornamental mill where your rotating stock is linked via gears to a leadscrew which determines the speed with which the carriage travels down the X axis. The length it travels in X for one rotation is called the "pitch". If you look at my "indexer confusion" thread:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/19689.html?1175534825
you'll see the bit makes the "valley" and half of both sides of the front and back "hill" of the cut so the cut has to exactly the width of the bit. Part of my confusion comes in because there is no place to adjust for bit size. So what if i want to use a 1" bit instead of a 2" bit? My intuition tells me it may be within the dialog box asking how many times you want it to wrap around, but if you input the wrong number due to confusion (which I am) you get a screwed up design (pun intended).

[jhicks]

I would agree and reference the Legacy machine. its very mechanical and has quite a bit of set up and calculating to get used to BUT they do have a nice video tutorial set which is great after you've been away from the machine a while.
I too have often thought about the indexer option but no real promotion or apparently much in the way of set up or operation instructions.
Good selling tool and also great reference is a handy set of information to use for decisions on purchase or help with operation.
Just another opinion in agreement with above posts.

[rg_engravers]

I read this
http://www.shopbottools.com/files/SBG00139060509Indexer.pdf
seemed simple to follow.
All one needs to do is use there imagination.
As far as wrapping 3d one must have some knowledge of Cnc and the right hardware and software

[ted]

Ok Guys,

The point is well made. We'll get to work on better documentation for how to use those accessories and to make them do what you would like them to do. And, a Wiki sort of thing might be good as well, particularly as it could provide some expert help on doing some of the more sophisticated things that one might want to do with a component like the indexer. There being a fine line between how to use something and how to make various things with it ...

By way of a bit of info, both of these accessories date back to the first ShopBots. At that time, they evolved as accessories that ShopBotters themselves actually developed ... making use of features of the control system to operate them. In principle, the probe is just an input switch, and the indexer, just an extra motor. But, of course, they've gotten a lot more sophisticated with time.

People may or may not have noticed, but the software which runs these devices is actually done with Part File programming and the original versions of the code was written by ShopBotters. On the one hand, that is why they are so flexible, and on the other, I suppose it is why we have not paid as much attention to the documentation as we should, figuring that it was all there in a very open system for others to putter with. As we got to the point that we started making and selling these accessories ourselves, rather than just providing a few of the basics and letting people work it out ... we should have stepped up with some more helpful instruction.

So we'll put these at the top of the list. If you have other suggestions for documentation priorties, please fire them off to us ... maybe putting "Documentation Suggestion" in the Subject line. If you haven't had a chance, take a look at the style of the new PRS documentation (under Support>Documentation). Even though there are still sections that need work, we think the basic style and layout is pretty communicative.

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools

[waynelocke]

I understand your confusion. I bought a Legacy 5 or 6 years ago instead of the indexer because I needed to get some spiral candlestands done and the Legacy was ready to go straight out of the box. Although the Legacy is a great machine, I sold it and bought an indexer shortly after that job.

The indexer allows for much easier setup. I have never wrapped a carving around a turning, but have done a fair number of spirals and simple turnings. The included software handles most of these tasks.

Hopefully you have a copy of the Legacy manual because they have terrific advice on the the number of starts and pitches. Their advice seems pretty good on these things.

The SB Indexer software doesn't have a box for pitch, but it just takes some straightforward calculations to get there. If you want a pitch of 9 (i.e. one spiral every 9 inches) on a 30 inch turning, you would just set up an equation, 1/9 = x/30. The answer is 3.33 which you would plug into the Indexer software box for "number of times pattern wraps around work". Making this number positive makes the spirals clockwise and making them negative makes them counterclockwise.

Because of the ease of setup, it is easy to try different bits and pitches. You can make a short spiraled section to judge how something will look.

I almost always make a file as opposed to just running from the fill-in sheet. I can then modify the depth if I want just by editing the file.

Depending on if and what cad program you use, you can model the columns to get an idea of how a column will look.

Wayne

[rg_engravers]

Jack members know how to do this with an indexer, no big secret
http://cncsb.onlinestoragesolution.com/Indexer/indexer.htm

[rg_engravers]

Wayne now my health is better might come see you if it ok

[myxpykalix]

Ron,
I'm going to continue this discussion in another thread called "Indexer/Spiraling discussion". I have a question or two for you.

[myxpykalix]

Well, Ted its been almost a month with nothing on the indexer. I made a very rudimentary tutorial myself with my limited knowledge in an hour or so, so I think someone there certainly could have come up with something by now. I'm sure you are busy with this event in California but it seems you could delegate this task to someone there. I figure i've spent about $3,000.00 extra dollars on addons i can't really use. I hate to "hold your feet to the fire" on this, i'm sure you're a busy guy but when I bought them I was assured there would be documentation with everything. I'm sure you could update us on the progress so far. Thanks!

[ed_lang]

Are you going to make your rudimentary tutorial available to others? If so how do they get it?

[Brady Watson]

Hey John,
What is it exactly that you are having difficulty with? The PDF on the downloads page doesn't spell out every feature that you would want to do with the indexer, but gives you plenty of ideas that you can extrapolate and adapt to your own designs. Since there are SO many different ways that the indexer could be used, it is impossible to address them all. This is a more advanced accessory and it takes some homework, intensive thinking and trial and error depending on what you want to accomplish. The majority of 2D type designs that are akin to what a Legacy mill does are pretty simple to design & cut using only PartWizard and the SB3 Indexer Virtual Tool. If you already own a Legacy, it isn't hard to figure out just how easily it's moves can be emulated on a CNC indexer, but it does take some effort on your part.

If your goal is to cut 3D statues, totem poles and things like that, you'll need a CAM program that can create the toolpaths needed to do this. DeskProto, VisualMill, ArtCAM and Cut3D all offer ways to do this. It's a matter of sitting down and figuring it out on your own, depending on what package you have purchased, or contacting your software reseller for some help. I think it would be pretty hard for anyone to come up with a step-by-step way to hold one's hand thru each of these packages for use with the indexer. Many of the CAM companies have web forums where customers can get help with programming some of the more exotic strategies, like 4th axis work. The best teacher is actually doing your own R&D with it, since you'll be focusing on EXACTLY what YOU want to do with it. A few chunks of pink insulation foam chucked in the indexer gives you a safe and inexpensive way to learn how to use it. Who knows, if you spent some time figuring out how to use the indexer, maybe you could teach someone else how to as well. That's what keeps this whole thing going. I think that if you searched around/asked around any other CNC company who sold the 4th axis hardware, NONE of them would have the documentation that ShopBot has available for download right now...


-B

[ted]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for keeping our ‘feet to the fire’ on this one. No, we haven’t forgotten your interest in more documentation on the indexer. But, we just finished getting a new "Introduction to 3D and CNC" up on the website (which includes some work that ShopBotters have done on indexers), and are now working on the new "probing" documentation which I promised. After probing, we’ll dig into making a new manual for the indexer.

Now, here’s how you could help us out. I understand that several ShopBotters (as well as our tech support guys) have worked with you on many aspects of using the indexer. Unfortunately, I have not gotten specifics from them on what it is that you are having trouble with, or exactly what it is you would like a tutorial on making. So it would be very helpful to working on new instructions if you could could email me an outline about what you think should be covered and at what level the instructions should be targeted. Your own document (mentioned above) would also be very helpful to us if you are willing to share it. Finally, I know it might be a little work, but if your note to me could indicate what it is about the current Indexer Virtual tool that ships with the software, or the instructions for using it, that don’t work for you, that would also help get us pointed in the right direction.

Meanwhile, if the indexer has become too much of a frustration for you, just send it back to us and we’ll refund the full purchase price. We certainly don’t want you stuck with something you can’t use. Over the years, many ShopBotters have figured out how to put the indexer to work and have done some very interesting things with it (e.g. www.shopbottools.com/3-d_work_v2.htm (http://www.shopbottools.com/3-d_work_v2.htm))

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools

[myxpykalix]

Here is the tutorial I posted back on april 8th. As I say it isn't much but with bills advice I started to understand the aspect of 360 degree and by visually mapping it on the column at least now i understand, if you want your flutes to land at different "degrees positions" the way to do it and as elementary as that might be to other more experienced users I thought some like me might get something out of it.
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/19966.html

The MAIN reason I bought a shopbot was for the indexer and ability to make long columns, so while i appreciate the offer to return it thats the last thing i want to do. But you can appreciate my frustration. I appreciate your attention to this and will follow it up.

For reference i'm trying to make simple rope spirals on various widths columns as in this post and example I posted a while back. The example was created on my Legacy ornamental mill.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/19807.html
Thanks again Ted

[wayneo]

Hi Ted, Hi Jack (careful saying that when getting on a plane)

I too would like to chime in here on the accessories and documentation thereof. Certainly it has been sparce to say the least. And coodos goes out to those that have added to the knowledgebase and developed add on software!

I also purchased my SB mainly for being able to cut and carve in 3-D and especially on the Indexer. I was disappointed and frustrated to find that it was largely experimental in nature. I did work with Grant when he was there and was able to make some headway. I believe at that time I was trying to probe something from the Indexer, so that was a double whammy.

In my case, I am particularly interested in going beyond just making uniformly round cylinders or even uniformly tapered cylinders. I would like to make Coke bottle shapes (sculptured shapes) and even possibly applying reliefs to the sculptured shapes. I would also like to take this to the more extreme of doing sculptures (Full 3-D) on the indexer. As Brady mentioned - a totem pole would be an excellent example!

Some documentaton on how to setup the Indexer to use the A-Axis and do basic cutting, such as cylinders, tapered cylinders, Z-varying cylinders, simple fluted columns, more complex rope like columns, and so on. Then for the Advanced section, how to do a facial sculpture or an animal on the indexer would be great! Most advanced would be some shape like a full body sculpture or totem pole like thing.

I would certainly be willing to share my experiences to further the cause!

I think there are a surprising number of folks that would like to do these things. Advice on the right type of software and how to do it would also be of great value!

Thanks for hearing us out and thanks for your continued support! SB is the GREATEST!

[bill.young]

Wayne,

Have you looked at the instruction pdf file for the indexer that's installed with the ShopBot software in the "C:\Program Files\ShopBot\Virtual Tools\Indexer" folder? It doesn't cover the true 3d things you talk about but does have instructions for turning shapes like cylinders, tapers, flutes, spirals and multisided polygon shapes using the Indexer Virtual Tool. It also covers techniques like turning shapes from a profile like your Coke bottle example and spiraling text around a cylinder.

The techniques and template that it uses for wrapping text around a cylinder could also be applied to wrapping a relief file, but the results can be pretty dicey because reliefs are meant to be viewed flat and can get oddly distorted when wrapped.

Bill

[bill.young]

John,

Did the program in ShopBot Labs for creating Rope spirals with your Legacy bits not do what you needed?

Bill

[myxpykalix]

No, because (if i recall correctly) there was no place to input bit diameter. Part of this may be from my lack of understanding as the only reference point i have to go from is what i know about my legacy.
If i'm stating this incorrectly please correct me but my thinking is what determines a correct rope pattern is diamter of your piece, bit size, and "pitch" (the distance the carriage travels in the X axis for one revolution). With the legacy that pitch can be changed by changing the gear set. Here that is not an issue as it is "free floating".

On the legacy forumulas a typical rope pattern might be made with a "3 start" pattern. I assume that in your "Rope twister" that is equvilent to
the box "number of strands in twist"?
In that we know by virtue of documentation to take the C gear, with a 1" round stock and a 1" rope spiral bit make our first "start" (or strand) release the carriage, move it back 1", then run it to beginning and start 2nd "start" that acts as an offset if you will by rotating the stock the equivilent of the diamter of the bit to start it right next to the last start. And by repeating 3 times it creates the rope spiral pattern.

Where i get confused is the unknown variables. For example a 6" diamter column using a 2" diamter rope spiraling bit will require a different number in the "number of strands in twist" box then a 1" bit on 1" stock for say a candlestick. How do i know how to figure that out?
Is one way to do it by taking the outside diamter of the piece and divide it by the diamter of the bit? What if it is not divisible by an even number? (see my confusion?)
Again a LOT of this may be from my lack of understanding so forgive me if this seems elementary to you. Thanks bill and ted for "tutoring" me.

[Brady Watson]

Jack,
When using a barley twist specific bit, you need to go out to the shop with a lump of clay and do some calculations. Take the clay and press the bit into it to the desired depth & carefully pull the bit out. You need TWO dimensions here before heading back to the office:

1) The depth from the top of the clay to the lowest point (tip of bit). Write this number down.

2) The diameter of the impression made by the bit. Take a tape or digital caliper and measure the diameter. Write it down.

When in the office, setup a new model that represents the unrolled cylinder of material you are going to use. If using a 6" diameter, multiply that by pi and make that your Y dimension. Enter a value for the X the overall length of the finished part being sure to leave yourself some room at the ends to avoid crashing the tool into the chuck or tailstock.

After you have the model up, you want to create some angled lines (this is where the Legacy calculations will come in...determine where the end of the line should end up in relation to the start...and this will determine the angle). After you have created one line, create another so that it is the distance in X away from the 1st line using the value you wrote down (#2). Continue creating lines until you reach the end of the model. Lop off any extra so that to the tool doesn't crash outside of the model. You may also have to shift the 1st line to get the pattern to work out properly (truncating the line at the model extents like the end of the model)

Then create a machine along vector toolpath using the dimension you measured in #1 as the cutting depth. Be sure to do this in multiple passes as large bits don't like big stepdowns.

Go out to the tool & zero out to the centerline of the indexer and cut. It may take you a couple tries to get it perfect, but this will get you really close.

-B

[paco]

Jack, once you'll have some turnable 3D models get some 4 axis CAM trial and play. There is one catch; some are 4 side machining CAM while other offer "true" continuous 4 axis strategy machining.

I just upgraded MeshCAM and it now offer something in between 4 sides and "true" 4 axis... I haven't explored it all but it look like it offer multi-sided machining. This is 8 sides...


6878

It still isn't "true" 4 axis machining but it can catch some more details...

My advice would be similar to Brady as to do your homework. Nobody can do it for you BUT we will all TRY to help the way we can as long as we feel you did try yourself first. When you get to that point, you'll only be looking for specifications and very narrowed details and not the whole "how do I do it" thing.

I for one, prefer to know that SB team is working hard on controller stability and smoothness instead of supporting every aspects of CNC milling. The indexer they sell is working just as expected but it come bare in that you still need a model and a cutting strategy to achieve the final goal... but SB3 can control it perfect.

Bot on!