Dying to take the plunge...

[harve]

Please allow me to introduce myself, my name is Mike, I know absolutely nothing about CNC routing other than what I have learned from this forum and from the fine folks at Shopbot. I know even less about the software that makes it all possible, yet I am dying to take the plunge. Pure fear is my only hesitation.

At this point, this is purely a hobby, but I am sure if I have half the success as most of the other forum members, I will try to use this as supplemental income at some point.

I am primarily interested in some sign making, craft items, rocking chairs / horses, etc. I am very impressed with the ability to scan and engrave a photograph on various materials.

Based on many sleepless nights of reading posts and since this is a hobby, an entry level machine is plenty for my initial needs. I am considering the purchase of a "buddy" standard Shopbot with a scanning probe to help with my learning curve associated with the software. I think buying the Vcarve Pro, Vcut 3d and Vcarve Photo software is my best route.

I am in the process of visiting a demo site to seee the machine in action. Financially, my plan is about as far as I can go as to the size of the machine and router vs. spindle, etc.

If anyone would care to respond to my plan as to whether my logic has merit or if I am completely off base, please feel free to do so. I am open to any and all suggestions or comments while debating this decision. Thank you in advance for all your help.

[henrik_o]

Hello Mike!

Got ya on the sleepless nights. I spent three years of intermittent agonizing. "I really really really want it, but I really really can't afford it juuust yet."

I think the PRS Standard 'buddy' is a great value. If you have space constraints, it may be a must. Still, if you have the space for a 96-48-8, think this through carefully. The 'buddy' is quite small. For craft items, produced one on one rather than in series, it's perfect. For anything else, it is, well, very small.

[gwilson]

Hey Mike,
Know how you feel, once I found out about the Shopbot it was all I could think of. In my time waiting I downloaded the control software, manuals, everything Shopbot has available. I also read this forum, learned alot before I could afford it. I bought a used one and I am loving it still. My wife knows to look in the shop first when she needs me.
Gerald

[harve]

Henrik, thank you for your response. I agree it is small, but financially, the "buddy" is as far as I am comfortable going. You know as well as I do that once I figure this out I will be kicking myself for not going bigger in the first place. It is a very hard decision and to make matters worse, space is not even a constraint, I have plenty of it. Still, I need to think responsibily and that means "buddy" for now. At least noise is not an issue, I can be about as loud as I want and apparently using the router option, that is a very good thing.

[harve]

Gerald, I have already been there, done that as far as the manuals... even the Vectric software free trials have been downloaded. I plan to purchase the Vectric three software package bundle. My wife fails to understand my playing with the software and not even having ordered the machine yet. To me, I will be that much further ahead of the learning curve and I need all the head start I can get from that aspect.

[gary_n]

Mike,
Don't purchase the Vectric software just yet as the new ShopBot models will come with some of the Vectric software included. This has just been announced in the last week or so.

[harve]

I heard it was announced at the latest Shopbot camp in Ohio this weekend. I am still debating my options as well as arranging a site visit to see one in action so purchasing will probably be a few weeks away. I wonder if it gets bundled in with the purchase of the Shopbot will they just add the $947.00 to the price of the Shopbot or will it be cheaper being sold as a "value add" for the tool?

[jsfrost]

Hi Mike,

My primary use is hobby with income while working full time, and I plan to eventually evolve into retirement with income. I have a full size Alpha but could do most of my projects with something smaller.

I love my new spindle but if cost is an issue, the buddy with router can do everything. Just not as big, as fast or as quietly as a spindle. I would delay purchasing the probe until you explore reality VS your present thinking. Scans can be purchased from others cheaply enough that a probe may not pay for itself.

My opinion may or may not be worth what you paid for it. Others will have different ideas.

[GlenP]

Gary, where did you hear about shopbot including some vectric software. I just ordered a new prs 96-48 and am buying the three peices of vectric software as well.

[harve]

Thanks Jim. Your logic makes sense. I am basing this $400.00 "need" on my lack of experience with CAD / CAM software. The site visit I am arranging includes a set up using the probe, but the owner says he can show me a quick and easy way to create the files rather than wait the eternity it takes to complete the scan. File creation is my biggest hesitation in this purchase.

Glen, I heard from a person who attended the Camp this weekend in Ohio that it was announced Vectric software would soon be included with new systems and was also advised to hold off on purchasing the software until that starts.

[gene]

Hi Mike
I agree with Jim about hold off on the probe as it can be added later as needed. I purchased the probe when i purchased my alpha and i think i have only used it once, Don't let the learning curve scare you too much, its realy not as hard as you think , once you get one and start playing with it you will pick up on it fairly easy.. the vectric software is a must if you want to do signs , I dont know where you are located but i have a alpha with the spindle and the vectric software and photocarve if you want to see one work youre welcome to visit Augusta Ga
contact me if youre intrested .

[ed_lang]

Hello Mike!

Welcome.

"File creation is my biggest hesitation in this purchase." Boy that sure does sound like me! That was my excuse for a while and my oldest son said that he could draw anything I wanted so go and get the machine. Well, long story short, I wend and got the machine. My son found about about girls and he never drew anything for me! I was stuck and had to do something. To tell you the truth, learning how to draw what you want is not that hard. I made it hard on myself! I use corel draw X3 for my laser engraver and can even create in that and then export over to Vectric software. In my opinion, Vectric V-Carve PRO is a must have software package. I have not seen or heard any official word on the Vectric software and ShopBot so I would call them and see.

As to the size of the machine, I have a PRTalpha96 and I now wish I had a larger machine for the times I want to put a sheet of 5'X5' Baltic Birch on the table. That is not too many times and I can cut a foot off of one side when I do need to. I have commented many times that I could do better by having two smaller machines rather than the one I have now. Size matters, but only to what YOU are going to be doing with the machine.

Good luck in waiting..... that is the part everyone has trouble with.

Take care,

[billp]

Mike/Glen,
Ted Hall made the "official"announcement about the new software package at this weekend's Camp in Ohio. It will be called "Partworks"and it will consist of V Carve Pro, and Cut 3D (but NOT Photo V Carve...). It will begin shipping with all new Shopbots as of Oct. 22nd. They are currently working out the details to accommodate those people who have recently bought a machine, as well as upgrades for current Shopbotters who already own a version of either software (but they do NOT have all the details worked out yet, so give them a week or two before everyone bombards the office asking for pricing...).
If you do have a machine on order YOU can call Shopbot and ask for specifics about your order, but again I think they will make all of the announcements regarding "upgrade paths" etc. as soon as they are available.

[harve]

O.K. the probe is officially up for debate. Hopefuilly, once I see this in action I can make a better decision. Next "need". Are the starter bits from SBT a good place to start or should I go out and find individual bits on my own? I have seen lots of posts here about buying bits, websites that supply them etc.
I am in Lexington Ky, so a visit to Ga. would be a little far. I do appreciate the offer and the advice though.

Ed, I agree with your post. I could sit and procrastinate endlessly over my fear of creating files or I can do something about it. I am officailly only on hold until I go see the Shopbot in action. After that, I will have a better understanding of file creation and other questions will be answered, then all bets will be off.

[Gary Campbell]

Mike...
When you order the machine, ShopBot will ship the software early. We did this and having the head start was great. They also have training videos by Brady that helped a lot. They were included with our PRSa, but I dont know if they are included with the smaller machines.
Gary

[harve]

I will definitely ask about the training videos. I did see where people were receiving their software well in advance of the machine arriving. Not sure if this new process of including the Vectric software with their systems beginning 10-22 will delay the software shipment. Worst case, I have the trial version of the three Vectric software packages downloaded and can play with them to get comfortable with.

[harryball]

The probe is something you can pick up any time if you feel the need. I'm in the same boat as Gene, I bought the probe but I've only used it a couple of time. Perhaps a need will occur when I need it but I bet when that happens I could have waited long enough for it to ship.

The "Starter Bits" I got from Shopbot are actually nice bits. Buying cheap bits, even for practice, is a tough choice. Good bits cut so much better than cheap bits I have to wonder if you are doing yourself any good. Anyway, I would suggest less expensive bits to start with and then move up. Get a few 1/4" up spiral and down spiral bits as well as some straight bits. Decent solid carbide spirals can be had very reasonably. These bits along with the shotbot set will give you a good feel to get started.

Another tip is to start with construction foam. You can cut it with a straight bit at 4ips with the spindle off :-) Not a mistake you want to make with a sheet of plywood. Thus why you start with foam.

When zeroing to the material top or to the table top my advice to beginners... (opinions vary here) 1) Get a decent digital micrometer to measure your material thickness. 2) Always zero to the top of the material for every project until you get the hang of things. Changing your zeroing method project to project or even within a project can get you broken bits or even a row of bat outlines carved deep into your table top. With experience comes less confusion and fewer mistakes. That said, when I'm cutting through material I zero to the table top, anything else and I zero to the material top.

Get your in person demo and don't be afraid to ask questions. Most botters are happy to share. I'm just south of Atlanta, a bit far still but you are welcome.

I have a PRTAlpha 48x96. I've only wished I had a larger machine once so far. I needed the size table I have so smaller wasn't even a thought.

I have given thought to my next bot being a 48x48 but I have time yet to decide that. A laser engraver is still my next likely purchase.

Robert

[myxpykalix]

Mike,
Rather than go small and eventually upgrade, I did the opposite. I bought a prt alpha 96 and an indexer to make columns and my table is 5 ft wide. I also bought the probe but returned it because i thought i would use it more but didn't. I have found that a majority of what i make so far has been smaller but i did make some wainscoting that required full sheets of mdf to be cut and i had the capacity to do that. If space is not an issue i would go with a full size table setup because i think to upgrade later you will probably spend more money than just the difference in price between a small unit and larger one.
If money is an issue you might look at a used unit in the "shopbot for sale" column. You might get a used bigger unit for the cost of a new smaller one.

You may have to take some of this advice from strangers on "blind faith" but you have to ask yourself why would they recommend something if THEY weren't a satisfied customer also?
Soon we will see you singing the praises of the shopbot to the next wave of owners...

[harve]

Harryball thanks for the zeroing advice. My lack of CAD / CAM software knowledge makes "zeroing" X and Y axis understanding a real challenge.

A full sized machine would be ideal as I have the space and it removes the need to upgrade later. I will look into a used system, but financially I think the smaller unit is where I will wind up. One concern with used is a mechanical failure and my limited knowledge of the system.

Taking advice from strangers is very much trusting in "blind faith", but in spending countless hours reading through the posts on this forum, I have a high level of confidence in the advice I have seen given and with the willingness of botters to help one another. This trust goes far in the decision to purchase a Shopbot.

[gene]

Mike
Think as x as length y as width and z as thick . Its realy not as hard as you think . 4x8x3/4 plywood is x=96 y=48 z=3/4 if you want to cut a cabinet side that is 24x34.5 out of 3/4 material you draw a box 24x34.5 and set the depth at 3/4 . after you get a few thousand hours in on a bot and break 1257 bits you will be a pro.. (JUST KIDDING) dont fret if at first you dont succed you will be like most of us, then there is always the directions , but who reads them. good luck in your decission, gene

[harve]

Hey Gene, do the countless hours of reading posts and researching every aspect of this machine count toward my required "few thousand hours on a bot"? I am sure I can reach the 1257 bit breakage minimum in short order. Once I finally muster the courage, I will be sure to keep the manuals close at hand, just in case I need something to do while one of my many masterpieces is being pounded out.

Serioulsy, thank you for the crash course. I appreciate any information you can offer.

[myxpykalix]

Mike if you look at my number of posts most of them came in the form of questions before i got my bot.I was guided by the "fear of the unknown"
and after asking tons of questions and getting tons of advice when i went to start pushing buttons for the first time, I kinda felt like this:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/15140.html?1158988486

I suspect you will too...

[harve]

Precisely Jack! I am so fired up over this idea that I rarely sleep anymore. If not for my day job, I would probably get no sleep at all.
Soon I will make that call that will set in motion the purchasing process for the machine that will change my woodworking world forever! Were it not for an overwhelming bout with cowardice, I would do it today! I have to remind myself to be patient. I am going to observe a system this Friday.

I took your advice and spent last night's bout with insomnia surfing the Bot's for sale section of this forum. There were a few good deals, the price of a used larger system was about what I am anticipating paying for the smaller system. But, none had the Vectric software that I have included in pricing the smaller one. Baby on the way and I really need to stick to my original budget.

[harve]

Is this realistic or a recipe for disaster?

My "day" job requires me to be in and out of the office regularly visiting remote sites. My office is about 6 minutes from my wood shop. Would it be realistic for me to think that I could start a probe job (Or cut job for that matter) before going to the office in the morning and come back shortly before it finishes? (Can it be made to power itself down once the job has completed?) OR is this just an accident waiting to happen and I should be there anytime the machine is running? My fear is something goes awry and I burn out a component on the Bot becasue I was not there to stop it when the error occurred. Trying to be optimistic, I figure that worst case, a bit breaks and the job finishes as an "air" test run.
My reality, a bit breaks sending a piece of metal hurling through the air piercing the gas tank of my motorcycle which leaks fuel across the floor puddling near the gas water heater causing an explosion that takes out half the block.

[mikek]

Mike, You won't be sorry sticking to your original plan! The new Benchtop is a real sweet machine from the videos I have seen of it. I have the older (1 year) PRT Benchtop/Router with 4G upgrade and am totally happy with it. Earplugs are a must, but my router table has the same noise level. I have three very good friends with 4 x 8 and 5 x 10 models if I need to cut bigger stuff! (Wayne, Neville, and Nancy). I could make the space if I really had to have it, but I also use it for mostly hobby things. I do make fixtures for my day job when needed and that keeps me in supplies (bits and materials). If you want and need the larger machine later, you can sell the Buddy for real close to what you paid for it and get the bigger one. Get the 5 x 8 or 5 x 10 at least would be my suggestion. I use some 5' x 5' material that would not fit the 4' x 8' machines without cutting on a tablesaw first.

I had followed ShopBot since their beginning and admired every machine. A friend and myself had the same idea in 1985 and built a small prototype that I still have. We had a demanding day job at the time (Compaq) and could not do both so it was left on the back burner. ShopBot rekindled that desire and I finally got one!

I know Lexington is a bit far from here (Austin, TX), but on Oct 19th there will be 3 ShopBots performing at a User Group meeting here prior to the Maker Faire. A PRS Alpha 4' x 8' and TWO new BT32 Buddys. There will also be quite a few Botters (30 plus at the last count I heard of) to talk to attending the day long meeting and the 2 day Maker Faire. Great chance to meet and see great machines and the "force that drives them". Like to meet you if you can make it.

[harryball]

Recipe for disaster.

You should never leave the bot out of sight and sound while it is working on a cutting job. Probing isn't such a big deal, but cutting generates friction on wood while you pull air around it... any boyscout knows what happens if you do that long enough. There are many problems that could be minor if you caught them but major if you ignore them.

All is not lost though, a few botters have a video feed into their office and a few even added an extra stop button in their office, a very good idea. With this type of monitoring the only thing missing is sound.

Sound is an important clue to what is happening. If you can hear the bot you can have a good idea of what is happening. While not a requirement, it is comforting when things sound right.

You said your shop is 6 minutes away from your office. That may be your challenge. Web cams and such can take care of the view... but a lot can happen in 6 minutes if you see smoke and you have to get back to your shop. Even if you engineered a remote stop button (doable via the internet with some engineering) you still have that 6 minute time lapse to get to the shop.

Personally, I wouldn't go more than a minute away while it was cutting.

Cutting foam brings on another set of parameters but for me the answer is the same, don't leave it. Some feel it's OK to leave the bot alone carving foam overnight and with some cutting jobs taking 20 hours I can understand... but I'm not taking that risk myself. Foam can heat up and burn too.

I've considered putting automatic fire supression over/around the bot and DC area. The type you find in boat bilges. Haven't done it but if I found myself needing to leave the bot alone for more than a minute or two to work I would add it in a minute.

Robert

[mikek]

Mike, NEVER leave your Bot unattended. It can cause an unattended fire and leave you with nothing but ashes. It is less likely to occur when with a probe, but things can happen. I left mine running to answer my cell phone last week for three minutes and the dust collection hose plugged up and I had a real mess on my hands when I came back in from talking. The friction from a broken bit for instance can start a fire. The dust collection system is a very good spreader, lots of air moving fanning the flames. You can probably search the forum here for some bad experiences.

[mikek]

Robert, you type faster than me and are more verbose. Good ideas and suggestions.

[harve]

That settles it. Even a remote stop can't put out a remote fire. Thanks for the info. guys. Fire and wood shops are never a good mix.

[harryball]

Out of curiosity and because it involved fire and explosions... well mostly because it involved fire and explosions I created a saw dust explosion.

I took a 55 gallon drum of saw dust and dumped in a pile next to our burn pile one morning after an overnight rain. I then uncovered the burn pile and started the fire. I let the fire burn over to the saw dust pile and after 30 minutes or so the saw dust was smoldering on top. I got very low and unimpressive flames off the saw dust pile. I then (from as far away as possible) threw a rock into the sawdust pile to get a dust cloud.... BOOM.... fire exploded all around and about 20 feet into the air. The disturbance created enough turbulance to stir the dust and continue to feed the fire. For about 20 seconds there was a huge fireball that continued to grow. You would easily have thought I'd set off a small explosive device. Once it settled down there were little smoldering fires in a radius of about 20 feet.

Imagine a fire getting into the DC system (some out there don't have to). I expected an explosion but to be honest, it was much larger than anticipated. I immediately added more grounding to the DC system.

The moral... you may not be talking about a simple fire... you could have a detonation.

That leaves one more sense... smell. If I smell smoke I investigate immediately. Hard to do remotely.

Robert

[elcruisr]

On the subject of fires just to let you know it does happen. In six years we've had three spoil boards burn. Twice while cutting MDF and a glitch stopped the cut with the tool spinning in the kerf. Once while cutting plywood and hit a chunk of embedded metal which trashed the tool and the friction caused a fire in about 5 seconds.

The vacuum hold down sucks a good supply of air and by the time you see it on the surface you'll have lost about a square foot of spoil board! For this reason we have a 15 lb CO2 extinguisher by the e-stop. When it starts it will spread very fast until you shut things down. Never had a dust collector fire but I've seen the after effects, not pretty.

This is not peculiar to 'bot's, I know of other machines this has happened to!

[terryd]

My insurance rep tells me that they base the rate for wood shops around the fact that they all eventually burn down. Not if they burn down but when they burn. I've seen my 'bot' scorch half the spoilboard when a small part of MDF became jamned against the collet and in about two minutes the spoilboard was glowing embers. I've seen a KOMO 5x12 table pulling 25 inches of vacuum turn to ash under the melamine being cut. The tip off was the smell. The operator was gone for about 2 minutes. The risk is just too high to leave a cnc router unattended. More often the first clue of a fire is the smell of burning MDF and the second is the change of sound in the vacuum system ramping up in speed due to the decrease in restriction as the spoilboard melts away.

[gene]

Theese are all very good points , not to mention a flash fire. If flames get going the only thing to do is to get out of the building. They are almost impossible to stop, and they spread so fast on a thin layer of dust ,before you know it the whole shop is comsumed. That is definately my worst nightmare, as my fathers buisness in an 81,000 sq ft building went to the ground.. it was retail and not a shop but to see the damage is is sickening. Definately keep a co2 extinguisher at both sides of the machine. Compared to the cost of a new shop its a must..