Shopbot standard information

[siwoodworks]

It's been a long time since I have posted here. Been real busy and I'm needing some questions answered if you guys don't mind. I'm a one man cabinet shop that is getting busier. I will need to do something in the near future to boost my productivity. I have been thinking slider but I would still have to hire an employee, which is something I would prefer not to do.
Called shopbot and talked to a few others now I would like as many of your opinions as I can get. Would a standard bot be able to dado, drill shelf pin holes, and cut out cabinet parts in a reasonable amount of time. I don't require lightning speed. I would use it on sheet work while I was making face frames or something else.
If it would be even halfway reasonable, it could save me from hiring someone. I'd like to go whole hog for the alpha but some bad luck on my part has put that out of my reach. I figure I can get my feet wet and get experience on the standard, see what I need and don't need then upgrade as necessary. Any input would really be appreciated.

[myxpykalix]

Rather than elect to go cheaper on a new unit check out the "for sale" column. There are some good deals to be had on some used units. Check out the sept 12 post by jeff finazzo.

[thewoodcrafter]

Before ShopBot came out with the Alpha the standard was the only model available. Many cabinet shops over the years bought and used them just fine.

I have an old PR upgraded to a PRT and have a 2 man cabinet shop. It makes saw dust just fine. I have a spindle and a second Z. The machine drills holes and cuts dados very nicely. I do have a 15HP regen blower for hold down that was a little expensive but a good option.

IMO a CNC is a way better investment than a slider or an employee. Never calls in sick, never late, more versatile and does exactly what you tell it to do no questions asked.

[bleeth]

Chris: I am producing all of my cabinet sides on my PRT. I have a 5hp spindle and use vacuum holddown. (7.5 HP blower.) I use a 5mm downcut that Centurian tools makes and it works fine. Due to the small size of the bit I don't cut real fast, but I do no tool changing. At 1.75"/sec I go through my board product (3/4" mel or ply) in 2 passes. I peck drill the holes. I get a full sheet in 15 Min plus or minus. I would like to add a drill and cut more aggressively but the older PRT gantry flexes no matter what bit you use if you push it too hard. I also have gone to the gecko driven board built by Dirk Hazeleger and this allows me to jog at 10ips comfortably.
The stiffer gantry on the PRS standard should allow you to cut faster even with a small bit.

[handh]

Chris,

I have a PRTalpha with a 3hp spindle and use a 7.5hp blower and have a air drill for line boring. I am a 2 person shop and we cannot keep up with the cutting the shopbot does. We are very happy with the bot and I would say that the bot saves us a average of 5 days a month in labor. If you figure your shop rate, mine is 69.00 a hour that is a savings of 40 hours x 69.00 which give you a total savings a month of 2,760.00. All of this means that you are able to produce more cabinetry in a months time so you should be able to increase your gross income by the above figure, as long as you are able to have enough business coming in. If you purchase a bot with the extras that you need your lease payment would probally be around 450 to 600 a month. This would give you a cushion of around 2000.00 so I hope this makes sense. It will not make you any money the first few months, you have to learn the bot and so it might even slow you down a few weeks until you get all of the kinks worked out, but after that things just keep speeding up. The truth be told, when I purchased my bot a year ago I wished that I had never seen it after the first month, but now I really wouldn't even want to build cabinets without it. I have a powermatic table saw and also a sliding table saw. I bet I don't use them a total of 1 hour a month now, my router table is set to the side, my shaper hasn't been used in 3 months. I highly recommend you to really look into the bot, if you need more information let me know or email me and I'll give you my phone number. Also you will be able to take own jobs that other shops aren't able to do because of difficulty and you can charge more for them, you can produce a value added product will little more effort from your end.

Jeff

[Gary Campbell]

Chris..
My son and I are a small shop also. I think, like you alluded to above, that using the Bot to process panel sides is a plus, and may eliminate your need to hire an employee. To answer your questions in a word, yes, and very well, too. But I dont see the Bot replacing a slider for fast panel sizing any more than I could see the slider drilling and doing our blind dadoes. In the world of specialized machinery, the ShopBot is by far the most flexible, but you can not expect it to perform better than a single purpose machine for that one task. It does, however, give you the ability to do the machining of many operations with the operator balancing speed vs. quality.
Gary

[handh]

Chris

It has very much replaced my slider in our operation, this is a debate that many people get into. You have to load the slider move the material around on the slider, unload the slider, move the material over to another workstation, line bore, construction bore, etc, and also a person has to run the slider, he has to figure how to get the best cuts and move the material around on the slider to be able to acheive those cuts and also as you are cutting you have to have someone to take the material off or you have to stop cutting and remove the material, the actual time studies that we have done blow a slider out of the water. I would not want to sale my slider but you don't need one if you have the bot. I can load the bot and then edgeband the material or in case of a face frame cabinet assemble the cabinet while the cnc is getting another sheet ready for me, and a very very big plus I'm not near as tired at the end of the day. But this is just my opion base on time sheets kept on actual jobs. I have done several jobs while tracking every hour and machine use on duplicate homes and the bot is so much more efficient. If you want to produce more cabinetry without hiring another employee a shopbot is the only choice, or if you want to speed up production while hiring an employee a slider will also do it but the dollars spent are not justified. Any employee that would be able to run a slider is going to cost you around 30,000.00 or more a year counting wages, time off, workers comp ins. etc. The slider is going to cost you close to the same amount as the bot or my did anyway. The employee is going to continue to cost you every year, and produce the same amount of gross as the shopbot alone. So your bottom line will be a lot less with the employee and slider verses the shopbot alone. Plus parts are more precise, we have a better finish on the shopbot run parts, since we have finally got the speeds work out. My wife and I can do a minimal of a cabinet assembled every 15 minutes, we just can not do that using the slider and I have been using a slider for years.


A sample shopbot job:
The other week we cut out a very large master closet system. The closet was 12 feet wide by 16 feet long, 9 feet ceiling height. We had 36 sheets of melamine in this job. I started at 6:00am and by 10:am, we had milled up all of the 36 sheets, line bored, construction bored, edgebanded and trimed ready for assembly (we also were putting cabinets together as we were milling on the bot). This comes down to 11 minutes a sheet. By the end of the day the job was loaded on the trailer, we assembled the rest of the the cabinets in the shop, also cut out the drawer material on the shopbot, the drawers assembled, loaded on trailer, doors bored, we used RTF doors so no finishing was involved, loaded on the trailer, closet rods cut to right size, hardware installed. Everything done by 8:00pm ready to be delivered the next morning. We sold this job for 6500.00,

We had 950.00 in melamine,
750.00 for doors,
350.00 for drawer componets and hinges and misc. hardware,
1120.00 in production time labor,
This gives you a total of 3170.00 for material and shop rate.
We delivered the closet system the next day and took us 8 hours counting the 1 hour each way to the job so this was another 640.00 for installation.
This brings the total to 3810.00 leaving a profit of 2690.00 for 2 days work.
This alone will make my shopbot payments for 4 months, I would never have been able to have took this job because of our workload had he not had the shopbot but because we were able to turn it around so fast we decided to go for it. We have received 3 more jobs because of this job.

Jeff

[john_l]

Jeff, what are RTF doors?

[handh]

Rigid Thermofoil, we mostly use them on laundry, some baths, and a lot of closets. Check out www.decore.com (http://www.decore.com) and you can look at them there.

[sawkerf]

I'll echo those who say the Bot can do it all! I made the jump in 2004 with a PRT Alpha 48 x 96. I only use my panel saw for busting up laminate. I hope and pray that I never have be without my BOT! I have have very , very little down-time. It's usually my fault if I Do at all. I have also made a vacuum hoist for loading full sheets like Franks. I use a 1/4" compression bit at 3 IPS in two passes for holes, dados and perimeter cuts. I also use it to make MDF doors and to cut out countertops complete with sink holes. I love my ShopBot! Kip

[siwoodworks]

Thanks for all the information guys. I was almost convinced a slider was the best way to go, but boy after getting some of the responses from here and other places, I'm really going to give the bot a good look.
Jeff-what software are you using? I use
e-cabs mainly to let me design and have my clients see the work in 3D. It helps work out a lot of problems or questions they may have before I start building and end up in a mess. I realize it won't work with shopbot.
I have seen some of cabinetpartspro. Is it worth anything? Anyway thanks once again and I'll probably be bugging you guys for a while trying to get as much information as possible

[handh]

Chris,

I use Cabinet Vision for design. I then use cabinetpartspro for standard parts and cabinets and for special parts with curves, etc. I use Artcam. After a while you will build up a library of custom cuts and parts and it starts making things a lot easier.

Jeff

[mrgadget]

Chris,

Reading over this thread I thought to myself, wow, that is me writing the thread!! I am going through the exact same thing now. From my perspective, and what I need/want the router to do, my solution was to just go ahead and invest in a program called RouterCad which is bundled with Enroute wood for the nesting and cam functions. These programs and a PRS Alpha with a spindle and vacuum will set you back approximately $33k. I do the same sort of work you do (closets/cabinets/etc) and I think you'll find this not much more or maybe close to a slider/line borer combo. This is the route I am going to take as soon as I fiscally can, and I really do hope it is soon. Just my two cents.

Jay

[siwoodworks]

Thanks Jeff, when I get a little time I'll try to E-mail you so I can ask you a few more questions on the phone.
Jay I wish you the best with that setup you should have it made. What complicates things for me is a lady just wiped out my truck and I had to go buy a new one to replace it. Can you say major unplanned expense. For now I think the standard will do everything I need it to.

[siwoodworks]

I don't know if I should start a new thread for this or not. If you guys think I should just let me know.
The question is simple. I hope to order my bot between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Is there anything anyone would recommend me reading up on or studying on before I get it? I'd like to be as ready as possible before it arrives.

[myxpykalix]

Frankly i asked literally hundreds of questions before i got my bot and thanks to many of the guys i learned alot. However i asked a lot of questions that were answered in the actual assembly and initial working with the bot. You should get your manual and software and documentation before you get the bot so you could start there. Use Parts Wizard to make things before you get it so you can know how to use it beforehand.
This is probably the best place to learn all you need to know beforehand so ask questions.