Crispy Bot

[khaos]

So after getting the table perfectly square and aligned. That is with a 1.25" bit I could see but not feel the toolmarks on the table!!! I was cutting a test file when all hell broke loose and the Vacuum caught fire and spread rapidly across two bins. Heat from the fire melted foam insulation in the rafters and that caught bridging the gap between the bins. Fire was extinguished prior to reaching the automotive finished stored on the other side but the damage is readily apparent.
The fire was mostly under the X rail Cant imagine there is no warpage ... (bad words)

Crispy
7096
More Crispy
7097
And still more Crispy
7098

All thats left of the Chip Vacuum (The Culprit)
7099

My Laptop
7100

[tuck]

OMG! Do you have insurance? :-(

[phil_o]

Ditto on the OMG! Good luck with everything.

[Brady Watson]

Geez Joe...I'm really sorry to see this.

-B

[brucehiggins]

I feel bad for you Joe. That is some bad luck! I hope you recover from this setback quickly. Care to divulge the vacuum model?
It is a good reminder to have a fire extinguisher close by. Mine is 2 steps away from my shopbot. Others have posted of fires being started by the friction of a broken bit.
One of the worst things is that instead of having fun with your shopbot you have a load of work just to get back to where you were before the fire. I wish you the best in recovering from this.
Bruce

[khaos]

Yes, I hope there are no loopholds for the insurance co to get out of paying. The smoke damage is extensive and the water damage is yet to be determined. Scheduling an adjuster tomorrow...

If insurance covers it I am getting SB to come in and set it up. I'll be damned if I want to go through all of that again ...

Another 6 week lead time! (more bad words)

[khaos]

Vac was a 15 year old Craftsman 32? gallon. The biggun. It had been through two 42 boat rebuilds.

I am quite depressed. I finally had the damn thing perfect. grrrr

[dana_swift]

That looks like a warning to all of us. Was the collector full? What caused the vacuum to catch fire.. worn out motor? Any hints?

Thats awful. It reminds me to move my shop fire extinguisher to a more central location. Maybe get a second one.

D

[nschlee]

Joe, Were you at the router at the time of fire?

Neal

[tuck]

This thread has me thinking. My shop is adjacent to (but separate from), my house. Often times when I'm cutting signs that are gonna take a long time (as in HOURS), I generally find my way back into my house after it starts cutting and find something else to do. I use to stand there slck-jawed all day watching it cut, but I'm well over that. LOL! Anyway I'm wondering if there's a way to set up a remote smoke detector whereas if'n my shop caught fire a buzzer would go off in my bedroom and wake me up. Anyone have any ideas???

[dubliner]

Just last night I left the machine unattended for a few minutes & joked with my wife asking her if she could see the shop on fire, she didnt think It was funny, now I dont either - I hope it gets sorted soon. It took me a long while to get mine just right too. , its a shame about that HSD spindle or is it a Colombo, cant quite make it out with the carbon. Good luck sent your way!

[dave_k]

I forget where I saw it, and who was saying it, but think it was one of the SB guys. They basically said there is just too much that could go wrong, and thus you really should never be far from your bot when it's cutting. Since I'm a newbie, I'm gonna be like Mark Tucker was for a while anyway, sitting there slack-jawed in awe watching it do it's thing. IF that ever does wear out, I have plenty to things I can be doing in the shop only a few feet away. After reading this thread though, I'm definately not going to leave it unattended.

[zeykr]

Mark, The home stores sell some smoke detectors that will signal each other (radio I guess as there are no wires) and if one goes off, it makes all sound off. With house and shop close together, I expect they'd be close enough to work.

[tuck]

Ken, thank you. I'll check it out first chance.

Fire is one thing we may not think about enough and Joe Johnston has shown us all how bad it can mess up your day, your week, your month, your business, etc.

Hey Joe, it could have been a lot worse. No one was hurt or died and that's a very good thing! All that material stuff can be relaced and don't let your adjuster give you any guff. In the meanwhile, can I have what's left of your new Bot? :-)

[signsbyjay]

Just recently had this conversation with my insurance agent. Per my agent, my shop is insured along with my house, my bot is insured as long as I am NOT using it to make money. If I am using it in any business type activity, I need to get separate insurance.

[jamesgilliam]

Joe, Man I hate to look at the pictures, but as Mark said it could have been worse. Material things are replaceable, but an injury takes a long time to recover from. Being in the local volunteer fire department fire is one thing I have learned to respect, that is why I have a couple extinguisers handy.

Mark, Like you I used to stand and watch the machine cut for hours on end. I hate to confess that I do go away from the area while the machine is running, and have to say I probably will still have the habit. These days about the only time I run the chip vacuum is when I surface the table. Cutting most other things I just put up with the mess and sweep up when I am done. Let me know what you find out about the smoke detectors, as our house will be about 10 feet from the shop when we start building.

James

[chiloquinruss]

How about this as a possible application for our shops:

http://www.kiddewireless.com/

Russ

[jamesgilliam]

Thanks Russ, I think a trip to Lowes tomorrow would not be too soon. One above the machine, one over Jo-Anne's pottery kiln area, and a couple in the "living quarters" for a start.

[khaos]

I was in the shop yes, thank god. The issue was the suddeness of the smoke and I was concerned about the possible toxicity. I could not see what the problem was and the main doors to the shop were loked from he inside. I needed to get some visibility.

The vac was emtpy. My guess is the motor just STB.

I managed to break in the main doors and apply some water to the situation about 4 foot from the automotive supplies that would truly have been an unrecoverable disaster.

Great news is the timing of the gas tank move. I had recently decided I didn't like the various fuel tanks in the shop and made a rack outside to hold them. (3 6gal, 4 1gal, 1 3gal) all with different oil ratios. So that was exceptional timing. Gas plus all the other goodies MEK, turp, kero, thinners, automotive paints in gallon cans would have made a mushroom cloud.

So I am aware of just how much worse it could have been.

It is far better to have Bott'd and lost than to never have Bott'd at all ... :p

[myxpykalix]

This won't replace a good smoke detector or fire extinguisher but since i do some files like 3D carvings that take 5 to 10 hours I have set up a wireless camera in my shop and have a monitor that i watch sitting beside my tv. I just bought a better unit that will give me a 270 degree view so i can pan/tilt and carry the monitor in my pocket.


7101

[tuck]

That's VERY cool, Jack Jarvis! In my parts we would call you a "hi-tech redneck"! lol

[myxpykalix]

woop, woop, woop! No the large picture is not me at my shopbot but i have it monitored on the small one to the bottom right.

7102

[gundog]

Wow! that really sucks Joe. I am speachless I feel bad for you. I hope you can get it all repaired sometimes things look worse than they are after a good cleaning I hope it is mostly OK.
Mike

[bill1]

Joe,
I'm really sorry to see this also, l am letting this be a warning to myself I often let my machine unattended on a long carve.

[harold_weber]

Joe, are you saying that the shop vac was the ORIGIN of the fire? I would expect that the fire started from a spark lighting the bleeder board.

[myxpykalix]

I don't use my vac table with 2 feins as much as i should manily because of my percieved waste of electricity running 2 vacs for 8 to 10 hours and because i'm not right there all the time.

[elcruisr]

I'm a veteran of a couple of spoil board fires. Got a big co2 extinguisher at the table and some dry chems spread around my shop.

If it started in the shop vac I'm thinking it might have been a static spark fire if t didn't start in the motor area. I've never been very comfortable with shop vacs for primary dust collectors on equipment. The housing is not grounded and I've shocked myself good on a number of occasions touching them in the past. MDF and particle board can produce huge amounts of static.

Even with an alarm I can tell you if you get a fire started in a vacuum hold down spoil board you have seconds to get it shut off and extinguished, not minutes, or you're going to have a real mess on your hands.

Keep safe out there folks!

[jhicks]

Joe, thats a major Bummer. Very sorry you experienced such a melt down but very thanklful you posted so we can see the potential impact of such an event.
Question for you. Do you believe this was caused by overheating the cut/dust and those hot dust particles getting into the vac then smoldering to point of combustion or the vac/ electric/motor itself?
What speed and feed were you runnint the test cut at and what material?
This is very scarry to me and i'm sure otyhers but "knock on wood" I've never even burned material so I'm very curious to know if you can truly isolate the cause.
Best of luck

[Brady Watson]

FYI - Spoilboard/bleeder fires occur more often than you might imagine. The fire starts above the bleeder board and is then stoked by the atmospheric pressure/venturi created when the vacuum seal is broken/burned thru. After vacuum is broken, you have a situation where the vacuum is actually sucking the fire & smoke into the vacuum system and the fire spreads with rapid acceleration towards your hold-down vac pump...It's pretty scary how quickly it does this. I'm not sure that a smoke detector sensor inserted into the side of a vac system would be robust enough to deal with the amount of air going past it or not - it may cause the sensor to fail...but it's a good concept worth exploring.

Dust collection systems (like the ones that caused this fire) would benefit from a Cyclone separator of some sort, with a metal screen/spark arrester near the inlet. It is harder for chips to catch fire than it is for dust to catch fire. The separator will drop the chips in the bin and the smaller particles will make their way over to the DC itself.

-B

[erik_f]

http://grizzly.com/products/G3376
I have a cheap delta dust collector and I run two of these before it. Most of the big stuff goes into the first can, most of the dust goes into the second can and the dust collector bags see very little action at all...I got mine from Woodstock...these are the same thing and just go on top of a steel 30 gallon garbage can...I think the whole set up cost me about $200. Its much easier to empty than the bags and the garbage cans are made of metal in case of fire...it might give you more time.

[khaos]

I was cutting at 5ips on a finishing run with the 1/8th bullnose. Chip load was negligable as this was the second pass at 90degrees. The whole job was a 10" concave disk with a small model. Depth was .5" max in a .75" piece of plywood.

I think the motor super heated and most likely the internal plastic combusted...

[toolguy]

Joe,
Thanks for the post. I'm certainly going to monitor my machine more closely. i'm also going to update my fire extinguisher and smoke detector. Sorry for your loss. I spent a lot of time setting up so I know how you feel.
Bruce

[harryball]

I feel your pain! Thanks for posting and sharing. It reminds us all to take a second look at what we have and are doing. I already have 3 fire extinguishers in the shop... it may be time for another as my house is attached to my shop. Or perhaps underwater botting might be in order ;-) I'm running a 3HP Super Dust Gorilla from Onieda Air. It does a very good job and I've never been fearful of fires with it. The twin Fein system for my hold down I keep a close eye on. When I smell smoke in the shop I start looking for the cause.


A serious thought... how about an automatic discharge bilge fire extinguisher like you find on a boat tossed inside of each holddown vac? I could get two of the smallest ones and drop them in each Fein. Wouldn't work inside the DC, but for the holddown vacs it should do fine. The autos take the heat of a boat bilge which can be 160 to 200 degrees, they should be ok in the feins.


I've already started scouting a location to build a new larger detached shop. We get busier and busier and my shop is getting smaller and smaller.

/RB

[Brady Watson]

You have to be very careful what you put inside a vacuum or vacuum chamber...Not everything fares well.

-B

[joe]

When I was working tword my Eagle Scout Badge, we had to start a fire with a couple of sticks and loose debri. A few puff of air did the trick.

[tuck]

LOL JOE!

[jdoug5170]

Finally, a post I can add to.

Coming from a large shop with 3 heavy use, production CNC routers, I can tell you that you never know what is in your board. We have had truckload deliveries of board with so much metal in them that after the first unit was machined that we requested a return to the mill on the balance.

I have always questioned the use of a "shop vac" in our shops for dust collection or vacuum hold down. I have always felt that once they get full, or a clog in the hose, that they overheat and either fail or burn. Exception as I understand it is the Fein's.

Still waiting for my shopbot....looking forward to joining this club.

Doug

[khaos]

Well I can guarandamntee that that WONT be the dust/chip collection in my replacement bot. :o

[sandmandave]

I think anyone using a shopvac as a dust collector should reconsider. First the small motors they use in those tings wind up at a very high rpm to create the vacuum and they produce a lot of heat. At least every one I've owned does. I don't think shop vacs are intended for hours of continous operation. Add the fact that shop vacs offer no grounding provision and a lot of materials we route are combustible. The process of moving a lot of air causes static electricity thus a very explosive situation.

I feel much safer with a real dust collector with all piping being grounded. Metal is easy to ground. In my PVC system I drilled very small holes at each end of the pipe, far enough away from the end so the fitting (elbow or coupling) won't interfere, and then inserted a small bare copper wire (totally non insulated) in one end and the other end coming out the other little hole so the wire runs inside the PVC the length of the pipe. I don't worry about the short length of elbows or couplers. Wire nut all your wires together and attach to a standard wall plug. The grounding wire is attached to just the third ground peg, then just plug it in. (obviously no wires are connected to the other legs that carry your current.)

[tuck]

Hey Dave, how ya doing? I remember you from Letterville. I remember you bought a router but don't remember what kind. What did you get? Have you survived the 'learning curve'?

[sandmandave]

HI Mark. The learning curve is just starting. In fact I just flipped the spoil board to shave the second side. We went with an EZ. The fun is about to begin. Had some problems getting started. First after some lengthy diagnostics, we discovered that the new computer was junk. After that it still wouldn't run right. Finally found out the xml file was corrupted. Running great now.

[mx_urfer]

Joe, I am running a prs like yours, we too have experienced a fire. Although minor it damaged our bleeder board. We were running a 1/4" enmill bit double flute at approximately 20k, and when the spindle move speed ramped down in corners it would heat up and burn the bit. At one point we got over a hole for the vacuum system and it made a spark which was in the chip remains of a cut. The vacuum fed the spark along with the sawdust and the table caught on fire. luckily I was right there to get the vacuum system shut off before it got out of hand.

Could this have been what caused the fire? Also what kind of dust collected were you running?

[khaos]

Dust collector was a Craftsman 5.5hp wet/dry vac.

"I was cutting at 5ips on a finishing run with the 1/8th bullnose. Chip load was negligable as this was the second pass at 90degrees. The whole job was a 10" concave disk with a small model. Depth was .5" max in a .75" piece of plywood.

I think the motor super heated and most likely the internal plastic combusted..."

[andre]

Wow, Joe I am sorry to see this happen to you. I'm sure insurance will take care of it. Thats what its for, accidents.

This is the first I have ever heard of a fire on the spoil board. First thing tommrow I am double checking everything.
I use two feins and have a onieda 3 stage dust collector. I have never had a fire. Although yesterday my drum sander paper broke and the rubber roller got so hot it spewed out molten hot rubber that was sparked and smoking. boy talk about a smell. I am double checking my extinguishers and perhaps buying a few more.

[khaos]

Andre, The Spoilboard was a victim not the culprit.
The Shopvac used for dust collection caught fire.

Joe.

[khaos]

If anyone cares here are the test piece I pulled off of the bot after the fire was put out... These boards were soaked. Both cuts are 10" at the widest edge of the dish... Both were on a waste 3/4" plywood piece.




7103


7104


7105


7106

[khaos]

For whatever reason the board didn't want to allow this in the last post ...

7107
All the detail shots above were from this cut.

[tuck]

"All the detail shots above were from this cut."

Well Joe, like they say, "The DEVIL is in the details!"

Sorry, couldn't resist...

[bill1]

hi Joe,
Well at least you have not lost your sense of humor.
Bill.

[myxpykalix]

Joe,
Have you tried to see what might be salvagable? It looks like it might be singhed and maybe some wires burnt but salvagable.

[wberminio]

I can understand the anxiety and frustration of a fire.A few years ago,we had a shop fire.The fire investigators couldn't determine the cause,but I lost a European style work bench I built while at
school and a few other "precious" things.Fortunately
someone saw the smoke and the fire department was having a party that night.A few jobs I was working on were in bedded with the stench of smoke as well as the entire shop.Every exposed metal surface had a film of rust from the fireman's hose overspray.Things we save because are so "important" become not so "important"
It's amazing how fast things happen/how fast our lives can change.Some how we on keep going.

Erminio

[khaos]

The adjuster should arrive in 30 minutes. I expect good things only but my inner pragmatist is always a contrast to my eternal inner optimist.

I really want to start cleaning and moving forward...

[ljdm]

After looking at the pics, thinking "Man, glad it wasn't me", still took a few weeks to get an extinguisher stationed by the machine. Came close to needing it today - testing some cuts with a down cut end mill in some mdf, took a few minutes to realize the spoilboard was burning. Lesson learned - don't use that type of bit for that type cut, and keep the extinguisher handy. Time for a new spoilboard sooner than planned!
Glad I was watching the machine - could have been a lot worse.

[myxpykalix]

You need to keep that lesson you learned in boy scouts about rubbing 2 sticks together to create friction and heat in the back of your head.

[khaos]

Update: 99% done filling out the insurance ppwk.

Its amazing how much heat there was. Smoke and water damage are pervasive... Shopbot is being so awesome with me regarding the new bot situation and the insurance company's pace. People, we are dealing with a top shelf company.