Hey y'all Would THIS work? (Modified Imperial Vacuum Table Plans)

[tuck]

Greets. Some of you know that I'm trying to noodle out the right vacuum table system for myself after 7 years without one. I was close to buying 2 new Fein Turbo's for $750.00 (with free shipping), but lawwd have mercy! I can get 4 Imperial VBTST6460VM vac motors for $234.00 less and have, as everyone says, superior performance and that's my plans as of today, 4 of them suckers!

If interested, please click on the following link and study my plans for a minute:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VacPlansSBMB.jpg

You can see that I want a 4 zone table with 4 motors, but I also want some flexibility as to how I use them (the motors). I don't want to reinvent the wheel and I'm trying to stay away from extensive and expensive manifold work and keep things as simple as possible.

Everything you see is located under the Bot, meaning the motors and the PVC plumbing. The motor boxes are to sit directly on the floor connected straight up into 2" PVC 4-way Tees as shown, which elbow off into 4 PVC ball valves, "A,B,C & D" and also connect to the plenum vacuum holes . My thoughts are to be able to zone off these motors easily and effectively as I need to and as the case may be. In this particular imaginary case, let's say that I am cutting through some small tough parts and only need 'zone 1' for space but need extra vacuum power to hold everything in place in that zone. I am showing in my plan ball valves B & C closed and 'motor 2' will not be turned on. I will run motors 1, 3 & 4, but I would plug their plenum vacuum holes (3&4), with simple (and cheap), 'pressure test plugs' (signified by the blue dots in the top of the 4-way tees), so as to direct their vacuum power to zone 1. 'Motor 2 Zone 2' won't need a plug as it would be closed off and not running.

Does this make any sense? Am I on the right path with this? If I was cutting through in all 4 zones out of a 4x8 sheet I would open all the valves and turn on all 4 motors. In my mind I see all the flexibility I'd likely ever need but I'm a latecomer to the vacuum table business and a little bit unsure of myself at this point.

Anyone wanna put in their 2 cents? Brady? David? Ed? Anyone???

[tuck]

Add to say, I call them 'motors',...I mean 'vacuum pumps'! ;-)

[ryan_slaback]

The only problem I can see (and I may not be understanding you correctly) is how you would get the plugs in place. Most vacuum tables have the plenum cut in a sheet and then a bleeder placed overtop of the plenum. The vac is actually sucked straight through a board. In other words, there are no holes or cuts in the surface your workpiece actually fastens to. If you build it the traditional way you would not be able to get the plug in.

I guess you could make a tapered plug in the bleeder as well and then you would take that plug out to plug the plastic T but I don't know for sure how well that would work.

[tuck]

Thanks Ryan, and I think you're understanding me right.. In this case I would use 1" thick sheet PVC for the plenum with 4 zone grids cut in. That idea hit me like a truck when I went to visit fellow ShopBotter David Buchsbaum last week and he was explaining to me the intricacies and difficulties of building and gluing up a proper plenum. He used Baltic Birch plywood with backerboard laminate glued to both sides of the plywood, then regular MDF glued to to the top of it all to which he cut his grid in for his 8 zone table. On top of that went his spoilboard ( trupan bleeder), which was attached to the table only by vacuum. It was beautiful and worked great but a lil' too complicated for my simple head. Sealing the edges of the plywood presented a problem as did the proper glue-up of it all and that's when I said to David, "What if I used solid sheet PVC for the plenum?" He thought for a minute and asked, "How thick can you get it?" I says, "1 inch", to which he said, "It'd take a SIGN MAN like you to think of something like that!" lol! It IS non-porous with no glue-up or sealing necessary.

So, to answer your concern, the "bleeder" is not attached to the plenum except by vacuum and whatever I'm cutting goes on top of that. With the vacuums turned off, I can remove the bleeder board and place plugs wherever I need them to be depending on which zone(s) I'm planning to cut in and which not (if indeed I need them at all as the case may be).

Make sense yet?

[steve4460]

Hi Mark
For what it's worth . I have a 6.5 Hp shopvac with the standard 4 zone vac plennum hooked up ,and I cut 4x8 sheets all day with that using tab's on the smaller part ( 12' x 12' )and things are stayig im place with just that .So my thought are start with the cheap way ($ 200.00 vac and 2" plumbing PVC ) after all once the plenumm is in place you can always upgrade the vacumme's afterwards with out changing anything on the bot . I have been happy with that 6.5Hp shopvac for $ 99.00 3 years ago . Just take the fillters of , since you will not use it for dust collecting , there will not be any getting in to it to start any fiers .
well amyway .

Bot on

[tuck]

Stephan,....TABS? NOOOOOO! lol, I kid, but I don't wanna use tabs. I want a vacuum system that'll suck the chrome off a bumper hitch if'n I need it to and hold down all but the most impossible sheet goods, which is mostly what I deal with in the sign business (sheet goods, mostly well behaved). I've gotten away without any vac at all for 7 years and it's time I spent some $$$ on one, but I want to do it right and be happy with my efforts, of course. I can't afford a 230 volt 3 phase blower, so I'm just trying to run with what's already been put out there by Brady Watson, Paco, Stan Holt and others,...just modified and simplified a little bit for what I perceive as my unique needs.

I'm all ears for anyone that can tell me why this won't work beautifully. If no one can by Tuesday morning May 6th, I'm gonna order the pumps with full plans to build this and call it "Uncle Tucker's Hi-Tech Redneck Vacuum Table"!

[tuck]

Late night and I'm still thinking. Let's say I have a 2' x 8' piece of material that I want to work on and through-cut in zones 1 & 2. In that case, I would put plugs in the vacuum holes of zones 3 & 4 as already shown, but now I would open valves B & C and maybe close valve D (?) and turn on all 4 motors (pumps), if I needed to? Or maybe close A & C, leave B open and just turn on pumps 1 & 2 if I'm just working on bigger parts out of, HDU for instance?

Either I'm crazy or the possibilities are almost limitless, I tell ya!

I'm waiting for someone more experienced and knowledgeable than myself to jump in here and rain on my sunny day!

[ed_lang]

Mark,
I would either build a box to mount all four motors on and then go to your PVC pipe, or mount the motors directly on the PCV pipe and not use a wooden box. I would then use your four ball valves to control which zone(s) gets all of the vacuum. The other option would be to run two motors and the second set in series for more vacuum. There are a few neat designs posted here that show how others have made real nice systems that can run parallel or series by changing valves.

I would run all zones to one manifold with valves leading out to each zone.

[andyb]

Mark,
I agree with Ed. Use valves to control each zone. I would have all my valves on one side so you don’t have to run around the table to turn a zone on or off. I went with a vacuum table about 8 months ago using my old 6 HP Craftsman vac and I love it. I’m only getting about 3.5 hg but it’s working for me now. I’ve been cutting a lot of MDF doors lately. With a little planning of my cut order, everything over 12x12 cuts great. Anything under and I use tabs like Stephen.

I’m planning on the Imperial vacuum pumps here in the near future but like I said the Craftsman vac is working for now. I went with 9 zones for what I cutting. I just took 4 zones and split them up for my use. It allows be more flexibility for what I’m cutting. The zone down the X is 9.5” wide for cutting boards.


7158

Knowing what I know now using by Craftsman vac, I’d go with 2 of the Imperial pumps and expand from there if you need too.

Andy B.

[tuck]

Thanks for the feedback guys. It makes me think harder and that's always a challenge!

Ed, the reason for the boxes is to add filters and mufflers to each motor, but perhaps I don't need the boxes? Noise is always a concern for me and I like things as quiet as possible. As I see my design, the ball valves DO control the zones. The plugs I mentioned would simply be an easy way to direct the vacuum of any motor to another zone. My original design had no valves at all and I thought I could control everything with plugs alone, but then I realized that any motors not running would be a source for a huge vacuum leak if not sealed off. To be honest with you, I really don't understand the "series and parallel" concept, but I'm trying.

Andy, I wouldn't mind walking around the table to flip valves. I'm not high production so it's not something I'd be constantly having to do. I also realize that 4 motors may be overkill, but I have a little Tim Allen in me and I also noticed in Brady Watson's original thread on these motors, Robert Ball said:
"This looks very promising. I could see using 4 of these to build a serious system for less than $1000 which for many shopbotters would be the holy grail. I agree, for commercial production standards just pay the price of admission and get a big pump, for the rest of us there does seem to be hope!"

To which Brady replied: "Yes Robert, you're starting to see the whole picture."

If y'all will humor me, let's take a look at a couple of more configurations as to how this might work. Let's say that I need to cut up a 4' x 4' sheet and I wanna use zones 1 & 3. The following configuration shows how that would be set up easily and quickly with valves B & D turned off and motors 2 & 4 turned off as well:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Vac13.jpg

Now, let's say that I have a 2' x 4' sheet of .080 aluminum or some tough ABS plastic I need to through cut small parts or letters from. Let's say that for whatever reason I wanna work in zone 4 but I need full vacuum power from all 4 motors. ("I'm giving it all she's got, Captain!) In this case all 4 valves would be open, all 4 motors running, and I would insert plugs in the plenum top in zones 1,2 & 3 so as to seal off those zones and divert the vacuum of motors 1,2 & 3 to zone 4. It would look like this:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Vac4.jpg

Have I lost my mind? Am I missing something obvious that would make this system not work like I think it would? Like I said, I'm all ears and eyes guys!

[beacon14]

Mark,

I think that's a really clever idea. With that setup you should be able to use any 1, 2, 3 or all 4 zones with 1, 2, 3 or all 4 motors. It might take a little more plumbing but you could probably get all the valves on one side or end of the table for convenience.

Personally, if I ever make another table I'm going to make sliding gate valves like Paco did, use a central manifold like Ed suggests, and use the sliding valves to connect each zone to the manifold.

Keep up the good work, you're getting closer...

[tuck]

Hey David, we bumped heads posting, my friend! Thanks for your feedback! I'm gonna keep working on it!

[br928]

The advantage of the 9-15 system is that it utilizes the ability to series two of these blowers together when a high CFM is not needed and a higher vacuum pressure is required. With all four blowers working on one zone, if the leakage is at a minimum, not much more benifit will be realized than running just one. All four blowers running in parallel will only produce 9" Hg at best. But, it will move LOTS of air if needed.

To hold smaller parts the higher vacuum pressure is usually desired, if the leakage can be managed, when using a smaller zone.

[tuck]

Thanks, Stan. If I'm not mistaken (which I very well could be and in this case probably am), I would be running the motors in 'series' as in my last case configuration posted above, but I am at high risk of coming across like a complete idiot at this point because although I think my idea is sound, I really don't know what I'm talking about! Haha!

Tell you what, I'm gonna call Ward Monday and ask him to look at this thread and get his feedback on the phone about my ideas. I called my buddy Jim (the electrician), last night and asked him to explain to me the difference between 'series' and 'parallel' and he started talking about Christmas tree lights. I couldn't relate what he was saying to vacuum motors and ended up just as befuddled as prior to my call to him. Maybe Ward can straighten me out. At any rate, I still feel like I'm gonna build something special and very simple.

But maybe not!?!? Stay tuned! ;-)

[Gary Campbell]

Mark...
In order to get the motors in series, you will have to take the exhaust from one into the intake of the next. That will add greatly to the vacuum, but not raise the CFM substantially. If you pay attention to your cutting speed, you shouldnt need to go series unless you are cutting pieces less than 6-8" square.

We cut letters from sign foam for a local shop down to about 2" high. Our setup uses a vac motor that pulls less than the 9-15. We 2 pass them and let the kerf pack with chips with no problems. Brady has some great articles that show you how to hold many different items with budget cost vacs. Good Luck
Gary

[tuck]

Thanks Gary! This is the most interesting project I've undertaken since I built my own new kitchen from scratch several years back. "Exhaust into Intake"!!! Alrighty then! Dang!!! This puts a whole new light on the subject for me! I guess I missed that in Brady's original thread or simply didn't understand the concept of what the guys were talking about! THANK YOU!!!


This is getting more and more interesting as it is challenging. I LOVE IT!!! (Stay tuned!)

[Gary Campbell]

Mark...
That was the difference between the 9 & 15 in the 9-15 project. 9 when single or parallel, and 15 when in series. You should look over the many posts on that subject, there is a lot of information there, whether you use that vac motor or not.
Gary

[tuck]

Gary, I've looked over and studied a lot of the plans. I saw one build using 4 motors that looked like a Volkswagon engine! I'm trying to simplify things for myself, but to get them in series I may not succeed. Understanding now what 'series' means and how that changes what the motors do with Hg & CFM, I have modified my plan to be able to run all 4 motors in series if needed but there's one major problem I can't solve. If I 'close the loop' with all 4 motors running in series, how am I gonna get everything to a final exhaust and a muffler?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VacSeries.jpg

Anybody have any ideas? I got a headache!

[tuck]

Alright, how 'bout this, guys?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VSEM.jpg

Am I there yet?

[Gary Campbell]

Mark...
If you are going to have the option to run multiple motors in series, you will want to build a box or device that switches similar to those posted on the open source vacuum thread. You will need to divert the inputs and outputs of most of the motors to be able to switch from parallel to series.

Another option I posted here: http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/7/22279.html?1184215551 You might want to work on the mufflers!
Gary

[tuck]

Man, Gary, that is SWEEEET! Now, looking at my last diagram, do I not have it right? By closing the valves in the "Exhaust into Intake" lines, all 4 motors will run in parallel, right? And by opening them, they'd run in series, correct? With the valves closed, each motor will exhaust directly into a muffler. With the valves open and the motors in series, I'm not sure how the "Exhaust into Muffler" lines will effect the series performance (leaks?), but at any rate, am I getting close?

I appreciate everyone's help and patience, I really do!

[br928]

Mark, I think 90% or more of what you cut can probably be done with one blower per zone. Adopt the KISS principle. The plumbing is getting more complicated and expensive than the benefits it would bring. Gary's setup with no plumbing is ultimately simple! You just might want to add some mufflers to the blowers to tame the noise somewhat. Also remember these blowers draw about 13 Amps each. Don't try to run them all on one circuit!

[tuck]

Stan, thanks again my friend. I like the K.I.S.S. principal, mostly because I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer and never claimed to be!
I try and use that principal in all aspects of everything I do. I wouldn't mind proceeding with my last plan if it'll work. The plumbing ain't nearly as extensive as some I've seen. I'd make the valves for the 'series or parallel' option (exhaust to intake or NOT), more accessible. If what I've ended up with will work, the extra plumbing is no problem. That's just me and my buddy Jim having fun! I just wanna build it ONE time and smile if I get it right the FIRST time. If I do succeed, I never could have done it without you guys and this forum! If I fail, it's all you'ze guys fault! lol!

As for mufflers, I couldn't readily show it in my diagrams, but I'm thinking seriously of having the exhaust for each motor run into a gang box and then piped outside of my shop into an actual small car muffler. Has anyone tried that yet?

As for Amps, my shop has 15 Amp breakers, 6 of 'em. With each motor plugged in to its own receptacle , I should be ok, no? If not, I can up the breakers.

Thanks again Stan and everyone. This has been a hoot for me! BTW, I did speak with Ward @ lighthouse enterprises late today. He asked me to send him a link to this thread so maybe I'll hear back from him tomorrow or this week. But one thing he kept saying that really tickled me was "You Shopbotters are NUTS!" lol! Love it!

[beacon14]

If the blue lines are "exhaust to input" then they connect to the same input as the vacuum plumbing that serves the table zones. Doesn't this connect the muffler to the vacuum zones? I don't see how this will hold a vacuum.

Anyway, I'm with Stan on the KISS philosophy. Just because the 9-15 system that originally got us started on these motors was designed to give you the option of series vs. parallel doesn't mean you need that capability. You mostly work on sheet materials which are relatively easy to hold down. With my two Feins I've been able to hold down solid wood pieces as small as 2" x 3" (I showed you how); with your 4 Imperial motors I'm guessing you could hold down whatever you need to without hooking them up in series.

In any case here's another vote for a manifold to separate the motors from the table. Hook up the motors however you want, parallel, series, whatever, with the final intake running to the manifold. Then one valve from the manifold to each zone. Ultimate flexibility and simplicity without having to memorize 1800 different valve combinations.

[tuck]

Hey David, (quoting you)

"If the blue lines are "exhaust to input" then they connect to the same input as the vacuum plumbing that serves the table zones. Doesn't this connect the muffler to the vacuum zones? I don't see how this will hold a vacuum."

You are sharp as a tack and correct, sir. If run in series then the muffler itself would be a vacuum leak and I don't see any way around that. So, I'm gonna go back to my original plan and KISS! And you are right again,...the sheet goods I deal with don't present the problems some of you guys face with the stuff you cut. I don't think I'll ever have to cut parts out of solid slices of oak tree trunks like you do, friend! lol!

Ok, so it's back to plan A, but I've learned a lot trying to come up with plan B. I like my plan A 'cause I understand it in principal and it's simple. Now, Stan says that using plugs in the zones to divert more vacuum to other zones won't make any difference and he probably is right, but them 'pressure test plugs' are $2.38 ea. at Lowes and I'd only need 3 of 'em max at any time, so let's find out, huh? If'n it don't make no difference, I can take 'em back and you guys are right, I should still have more than enough vacuum for 95% of my jobs with 4 motors & 4 zones in parallel. For the other 5%, there's always carpet tape and screws! Ha!

"Uncle Tucker's Low-Tech Red-Neck Vacuum Table", here we come! PAAARRRRRTY!!!!


Thanks again!

Mark

[tuck]

Just add to say, the part of 'Plan B' I'm gonna keep is no boxes for the motors (like Ed has done). I'll mount 'em directly under the plenum like Gary did, then run the exhaust from each to a gang box of some sort that will be piped outside into a single muffler.

[tuck]

Final Plan?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VacFinal.jpg

Wait a minute. Now the Gangbox would be a source for vacuum leak if all 4 motors aren't running, right? But if'n any particular motor ain't running and I plug the plenum for that motor and zone,...nah, that ain't gonna help what's going on to the exhaust gangbox. Oh, NOOO! I STILL gotta think HARDER!

I may still be not done yet, but I AM having fun, believe me!

[tuck]

One last post tonight: It's 4:30am and my girlfriend stomped out 2 hours ago, screaming something about my obsession with a vacuum table. The bad part is, she took my dog!


I think I'm gonna be ok though. 'Intake' is intake, and 'exhaust' is exhaust, simple as that when all motors are in 'parallel', right? The exhaust gang box shouldn't be a source of vacuum leak 'cause nothing is sucking from it.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VacWTF.jpg

Darlene, can I have my dog back, please?

[waynelocke]

I put a 7 HP cyclone dust collection system in last year and the noise level rivaled a 747. Mufflers are pretty pricey for large units but a search on the web turned up the suggestion of using flexible insulated duct on the exhaust coming out of the cyclone. $40 for 25 feet of 12" duct and the cyclone was reduced to a low rumble.

I have been following these threads with interest and have been thinking about trading out my Fein for one of these systems and have wondered about using the insulated duct as a muffler on these systems. The ductwork requires more length to muffle but 6" or 8" duct is pretty cheap and readily available.

I'm just throwing this out. Maybe someone will give it a try.

[scottcox]

Mark,

Sorry to hear about your dog. ;-)

[ed_lang]

Wayne,
The mufflers made for the motors are nothing more than PVC pipe with foam around the inside. You can sure make them. I chose to buy mine as I didn't need something else to make. I did look inside and saw what it was. Yes, I would buy them again if needed, but making them would be easy.

[khaos]

Keep us abreast of the adventure. I am also sorry about the dog.

[beacon14]

If she's jealous of the table then it's just as well that she leaves now. Too bad about the dog though.

[joe]

What's the dogs name. That's the most important thing.

I hooked up one of those vac's systems like Marks been going on about a year ago. Turned it on only once. I could see the metal walls on my shop come in just a little. Nope that's not for me. I like screws.

[tuck]

Good news, guys! I got my dog back! (The one that loves me!) Her name is Alice, Joe, and she don't care if I stay up all night engineering a new vac table! The other one? Well, 'dog gone'. ;-)

I was gonna call Ward today and order my motors, but I was out all day trying to get my dog back.

I'm excited about getting this done. One thing that occurred to me tonight is how I can take advantage of my old wooden table to help deafen noise from the vac motors:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Bot.jpg

Y'all don't laugh! That old (1996) beast has made me lots of $$$ over the years! See the shelf under it? It won't be a problem during the vac build to box the whole thing in with access/service doors on the front side, maybe 1/2" plywood with 1" construction foam glued to the back side of the plywood. I like things as quiet as possible and that's another reason I'm glad she's gone!


I still can't help but think about the 'series' thing. I know, I know, I don't have to have it, but the thing is, I just HATE to get BEAT! There's gotta be a way to get all 4 motors in series with a final exhaust that isn't a leak source without having to build a V-4 hemi in the process. See again:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VSEM.jpg

There's gotta be some kind of flapper valves or something, I don't know, that could make it work, just because it would be cool! At any rate, I'll be up all night again trying to noodle it all out, just me and my dog. (the one that loves me!)

[khaos]

What if you added some one way valves. I dont think they would be hard to make.

I think a hard rubber dog ball and some pvc with the correct diameter would serve you well. The bottom of the oneway valve would need to be such that when the ball comes to rest it can only seat in one location. I think there is a CFM consideration so the chamber around the ball should have enough room to allow at least the airflow of the incoming pipe wth the ball in play.


7159

The diverter valves would isolate the flow for serial or parallel operation. The primary benefit here is that the valve is automatic
so if you did not use all the pumps...

Just a very quick and dirty idea. Waiting for reality to rear its ugly head.

Glad you got your dog back.

Joe.

[dana_swift]

Joe - I love those dog ball check valves! I was about to make some check valves so I could combine multiple vacuum sources and that looks like a better approach than the one I was planning to use. Has anybody used that method? My vacuum pumps pull a very strong vacuum (20+ in hg) is there any tendancy for the dog ball to get sucked so deep into its seat that it sticks?

D

[khaos]

That is why I thought the dog ball would be a better choice. They are very solid and not prone to deform. Still I would think that the pipe should be about 2/3 the size of the ball.


It doesn't have to be expensive to be good,
Joe.

[br928]

Mark, Go back to the KISS principle. One pipe from each zone with a valve to a commom header. (A common header is basically what you have accomplished with your outside ring of plumbing.) Andy's six zone table looks very configurable. Run that common header to a standard 9-15 vacuum source. If you really wanna go over the top, use two of them. Wes is telling me that one is more than enough.

[beacon14]

If you really want to get your diagram to work you have to fix the "exhaust-to-input setup. Only the last motor exhausts to the muffler. Each previous motor exhausts to the next motor. Motor #1 input is the white pipe in your diagram. Valves galore so each motor's input can be switched either direct to the white system (parallel operation, like your original diagram) or to the previous motor. In series operation the motors are daisy-chained so only one motor is connected to the white system, you would have to design it so you can still access all 4 zones with the white system while only being connected to one motor.

So, yes you can get your diagram to work. But Stan and I are both trying to save you a lot of trouble with a simpler system that will work better. This is the last time I'm going to say it. I'm going to take a nap now. Glad to hear about the dog.

[tuck]

Howdy all! Ohhh boy!

Joe Johnston & Dana Swift, yes,..CHECK VALVES! I hit on that about 2am last night. There are many kind but I liked this type:

(Never mind, the link is way too long.)

Made for 2" PVC pipe and clear so's you can see the valve operate!
I said "Ok, I think I can solve this little dilemma now!" Shortly before sunrise I had a new plan w/ all 4 motors in series and here it is in all it's glory:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VacCheck.jpg

The exhaust has to go SOMEWHERE and SHOULD go through the check valves and into the exhaust manifold where it would then have no other place to go but to the muffler, thanks to the check valves! YEEAH!


And here they are running 'parallel' simply by closing the ball valves :

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VacPara.jpg

Well, I finally hit the sack feeling pretty smug in that I had indeed solved the problem, at least in THEORY! When I got up today eager to have another look at my solution,I had a email from Ward Bartsch, the nice gentleman that sells the Imperial vac motors. He said, and I quote: "I read all your thread, I think you need to get some sleep!!! I’m all worn out just reading it! I think I will go take another nap! Your series thinking – you do not want to put them in series of more than two in a row. Each motor is putting the heat from the past motor into the next. More than two would not be too good for the next motor. A couple more days of this communication and all your answers will become obvious.

Ed Langs latest system is the quietest of all – consider his ideas carefully! I do not think that you would want any motors sitting on your shelf underneath your table – would make a big speaker for the motor noise! Unless you floated the motors on some sort of cushion!"

LOL! Well, alrighty then! If the heat problem with more than 2 motors in series was discussed in Brady's original thread I missed it, and I had not even thought about turning my Bot into a giant speaker box! Might be kinda cool, though...?


So, to Stan & David & all, I'm gonna KISS. The more I look at what Gary Campbell did, the more I like it. 4 motors, 4 zones, no plumbing, exquisite simplicity. Just needs mufflers! At any rate, the more I have worked on and studied all this, the more I have come to appreciate some of the INGENIOUS things some of y'all have come up with. I may use Stan's plan because I understand it better now and I see that Wes is raving about it. I mean, why mess with perfection? Stan, if I decide to build one or two of what you've done, mind if I call you some time with a few questions?

As Shopbotters, I think that we all have a little Tim Allen in us and Frank Sinatra as well; "I did it myyyyyy way!" Lol! I tried but came up short!

I may get some sleep tonight, not sure!

[tuck]

Just think, Joe Johnston, if Ward had not clued me in about potential heat problems with 4 motors running in series, I may could have started another 'Crispy Bot' thread in a few weeks! ;-)

[beacon14]

Mark,

You can't overcome the laws of physics. Your "solution" involved connecting the inputs and outputs together at multiple points throughout the system. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure if you had hooked it up as in your last diagram you'd just be pushing a lot of air around in a circle, with no vacuum but quickly increasing temperatures leading to a meltdown!

KISS is best

[tuck]

Aww heck, I can't sleep again. This has consumed me. No wonder she stomped out! lol! (got my dog back though.)

Not quite willing to scrap my latest plan just yet, let's look at something. (I know I'm not the ONLY one studying vacuum principles in this thread!) We know that running 4 of these Imperial motors in series ain't good because of heat issues. Fine. Why would you need 15 Hg's over a 4 x 8 (all 4 zones) anyway? In the real world, you wouldn't. (this is assuming that my theory using check valves would work anyway). If you're through-cutting small tough parts, you're likely working in just one zone and not all over the table anyway. That's how I'd work it and most guys would. (see Brady Vac)

Ok, let's assume that the check valves work and while we can't run all 4 motors in series because of heat issues, we CAN run them parallel and be fine by just closing all 4 ball valves. Cool, but what if we have some tough small parts to cut and need 15 Hg's? If we turn off motors 1 & 3, turn on motors 2 & 4, close ball valves B & D, and having ONE MORE ball valve added just for this operation (we'll call it "X", and close it for this operation),... do we not have 2 motors (2 & 4), in series?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/2inseries.jpg

Are we not pulling 15 Hg's, at least in 'Zone 2', where we have (hopefully), planned to cut in this instance?

I'm just having fun, y'all. Ya gotta admit, you're studying my diagrams, aren't you? It's at least a little bit amusing, no?

Ok, ok, I'll get some sleep!

[tuck]

David, I'm gonna do one more diagram, a side view (instead of top view), to show things as I understand it and how at least 2 of the 4 motors could work in series. Bear with me friend, I'm just having fun! Besides, I can't sleep! ;-)

[tuck]

Ok, it's 5am Thursday morning. I was gonna get some sleep tonight, but David made me stay up drawing again all night challenging the laws of physics. Here we go: Firstly, can we all agree that my latest plan when run in parallel will work fine as long as the check valves do their jobs and prevent any leaks in the exhaust system? With the 4 ball valves closed, they (the motors), are all independent as if there was no plumbing at all. Let's look at it again:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VacPara.jpg

BTW, here's what the 'Check Valves' I have in mind look like:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/CheckValve.jpg

Sorry for all the links. I have my reasons.

Everything look ok with the 4 in parallel? I can't see any problems. Now all I want to do is get two of the motors, #'s 2 & 4, to run in series if I want them to for a lil' extra Hg's in zone 2. See again:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/2inseries.jpg

To do this, I'll have to add one more ball valve ("x"), and another in-line check valve just to prevent back draft. The following 'side view' was challenging to diagram and I left unnecessary stuff out for clarity: (Well, I HOPE it's clear, lol)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/VacEndView.jpg

Make any sense? It does to me but then so does buttermilk, black beans and peanut butter for breakfast. Again, I'm just having a lil' fun and trying to explore the possibilities. I never imagined that 'vacuum' could be so interesting but it's more so than Darlene ever was. G'night!

(Oh, I mean,...G'mornin'!)

[tuck]

Oooops. I had ball valve "C" in the wrong place,...I think...

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Oooops.jpg

[khaos]

Mark, I subscribe to the notion "There is plenty of time to sleep in the grave." you my friend are pushing this to all new limits. lol.

[khaos]

Mark, My wife has decreed "I am to spread love not crispy."


On the heat issue I have "cold canned" computers to make them work WAY beyond manufacturers specs. (My boat engines as well) I am sure a cold can idea would work for the one project in 100 years that actually needs 4 motors in series.

I realize heat shedding is a big deal. And level of complexity introduced to the equation would certainly outweigh the added value. There is alot of science involved to lower temps at high cfm without increasing moisture "too" much. of course too much is variable by the job. Could it be as simple as laying some ice packs on the pipes? Highly Doubtful.

I love a little academic calisthetics as much as the next guy.


-Joe

[Call-Tech]

Very interesting thread. Here is my 2 cents for what it is worth. Place vac motors outside with dust collector in a filtered cabinet. put 2 motors in series for when high vac is needed and 2 motors in parallel for when high volume is needed and run inside to manifold and break off into zones. or some other combination of 3 or 4 vacs. I'm sure I am not the first to think of this with all the treads on vac plans. But its simple and offers a lot of flexibility. also as many zones as wanted could be run from manifold.

http://www.csnd.com/ebay_images/Vacuum%20Table%20Design.jpg

Fred

[dana_swift]

Joe- I just made a rubber dog ball check valve and I am here to report that works really well! It seals with as little as 1" Hg enough to hold the dog ball up against the seat when I turn the dog ball upside down. It will also let a lot of flow pass around it without creating much back pressure.

The dog ball I bought from my local pet store to test with has a very small amount of surface relief for logos and a seam. No problem! It just worked. I thought I would have to sand that off..

Thanks for the tip Joe!

Dana

[khaos]

Sweet! Glad I could do something for the community.