MORE SHOPBOT PROBLEMS!!!!!

[dray]

Ok... Here is the main problem..

I bought my shopbot in order to make my cabinets faster, more accurately and free up some time for me to go fishing..

This worked wonderfully, well part of it.

I am now able to cut, build and install my cabinets 3-4 X as fast, they are waaay more accurate and sturdy than I can do by hand. BUT I still have no FREE TIME!!!!!!!!

The more I make the more I am asked to do!

When will the madness stop!!!!!!!!!!

[tuck]

You could buy another Bot, Danny, but that'll just compound your problem!

[fleinbach]

I heard there is a beta version of the software in the works that will load the machine and while the parts are cutting it will design the next project after which it will make contact and negotiate with new cliants.

[dray]

Heh..

Thats how insane his whole thing has gotten..

The other day, without a second thought I told my wife, "I am going to get another bot in order to keep up".

[scottcox]

You need one of these......

http://www.shopbottools.com/videos/RoboticChanger2.wmv

...or two.

[ernie_balch]

Just raise your prices by 2X. Do half the work for twice the money and go fishing ;)

[jamesgilliam]

Raise the price 4X and do half the work for double the money sounds even better.

[dray]

LOL, If my conscience would let me, Id do it in a heartbeat!

Ive got a buddy that does that.. He and Istarted in finish carpentry at the same time, he has a 4 mil house in Newport and multiple rentals all throughout Orange county.

But he is the most miserable mofo I have ever met, his wife hates him, he calls me to justify his actions. If I wanted to be miserable I could do that as well lol!!

For now I think I'll just slow down a lil

[harryball]

It is fun to joke about it but it does touch on a serious issue... prices vs workload. I learned an interesting viewpoint on pricing from a resturant owner. He believed if he was too busy it was because his prices were too low and if not busy enough they were too high. Over the years he had come to view "pricing" as a control valve. As such you could set your flow with pricing.

Sounds good in theory and it has helped me keep perspective on things at times. This, of course, presupposes you have workflow to begin with and need to control it.

In the end, however, I think the real answer is you need to only contract with other shopbotters for half price and do all our work too so we can go fishing. ;-)

Robert

[jamesgilliam]

Danny, What I really do is ask myself if I want the work, then price by that. I do other carpentry jobs also and if someone wants a door replaced, I go look at the job and bid then. If it looks like a problem job the cost goes up where I think they will get someone else, but keep in mind you sometimes still get the work.

[dray]

Ahhhh.. The pricing thing..

I have another one of my "opinions" on this matter.

Ok a little background. I have 7 friends that are all a close knit community, we all met 15+ years ago working for a custom home builder in Newport Beach Ca, We had all gone on our own about the same time in finish carpentry/cabinetry businesses.

Every one of them are always squabbling about prices and how illegal unlicensed immigrants etc etc are doing the work for next to nothing and how they are having to drop their prices on and on.

I get calls daily about how they are going broke and how they dislike their jobs now etc.

I have ALWAYS kept the same philosophy I tell them but they never ever listen.

"Look, in ANY business what ever it is you do or create the majority of the people in that same business are busy squabbling over who can do it for less.

I always look at it like a statistics chart.. In Orange County Ca there are probably 50,000 finish carpenters/cabinetmakers and 90% of them are on the bottom squabbling over who can do it for the lowest price.

There are on the other hand very very few carpenters on the high end with the love of their work and the ability to create what ever the customer wants and DO IT RIGHT.

But like I said there are very few at the top, very few carpenters that know what a "nickel" is, what Stool is, how to properly hang a door many many things. So I charge accordingly. My stuff is not cheap so thats where I'm stumped.

I charge more than twice what my buddies charge for the same things, but I spend time doing it right.

Anyways my belief is that if you do things right, keep yourself humble so you can keep learning you can charge what ever you want because no one else can create it and it has worked for me for 15 years.

Same thing with the door thing James. I tell the customer straight out. I will do it, I can do it but I will only do it the proper way. I dont go buy home depot pre hung doors. I build the jamb, I set the jamb, I router my hinges on my door then on the jamb, hang the door ,scribe it, plane it, install the stop, bore it mortise it add the hardware/strikeplates and in order to hang doors I have to bring out all of my tools so lol believe it or not I charge no less that $700 to hang a door.

Which still in my opinion is not enough because you are 2/3 into your day already and have no time to pick up and go to the next job.

When I started my business I billed myself out at $1000 per day no matter what I am doing. I keep that in the back of my head when Im bidding jobs.

I do have a set price for standard moldings, for Crown I charge $6 a foot (install only does not include material) for paint grade and $12 per foot for stain grade. I install 200-300' a day by myself with out a helper.

I really dont think its a price thing unless it is simplly consumer goods. But when there are limited craftsmen that can actually hang a door from scratch and leave a perfect nickel you can charge what ever your conscience allows.

Also.... lol keep this in mind!@!!

An orthapedic surgeon who makes over $1000 an hour is nothing more than a glorified carpenter.

Just my opinion.. I have lots of em just ask!! haha

[gene]

Danny
I agree with you . While 90% of them are talking price they know what there worth and i don`t argue with them. Most all the people i deal with want the quality and to know that two years the door still works fine, alot of the time if they want cheap i tell them i an not the guy for the job, call someone else, If they want it done correctly then i can do it for them but i dont work for free.. I am in the middle of a whole house remodel and ran into some structural problems and told the homeowner the budget increased by 65000.00 and they said and i quote
"we want it done correctly , DON`T cut corners"
There are people who realise the importance of quality and there are those who can`t see spending an extra nickle if there life depended on it. I tell those people to save those nickles so they can pay to have their work redone in a few years. NEVER sacrifice quality and you will never lack for work. Take care of your tools and they will take care of you.. Gene Rhodes

[dray]

Thx Gene, most of the time. I have a hard time explaining that to other carpenters. For some reason they believe all the way to their soul that it is about the price and will not listen.

I usually dont go on about it like that because unless you know the "right" way to do things you cant understand and mistake how I charge for gouging. I build things to last the lifetime of the house.

I spent the last 20 years with an open mind learning carpentry (including today.)

This price thing comes up all the time in my group of friends but for some reason they either dont believe me or are just too set in their ways to try it.

KUDOS!

[tuck]

Interesting indeed. I'm a sign maker, not a carpenter, but I just finished a rather complicated job for a fellow that I had done routed work for previously. This time, however, he took the rush job to another CNC man (trying to save a buck), who promptly sat on the job and materials for almost 2 weeks before he admitted that he didn't know how to accomplish the task. The job then came to me as an "emergency". I had it all cut in about 6 hours and charged Ol' Zeb $1,000.00 even. He complained about the price and I said "You wanted it done YESTERDAY, and you wanted it done right,...right?" He shut up, paid me, and has since (today) given me more work.

I do a lot of sub work for other sign companies and I try to price where we can all make money and have been successful with that approach, but sometimes you just gotta get what you gotta get and not be bullied or b.s.'ed by a customer or client. In the past 6 months or so, I've just been saying, "That's my price. If you can't afford it, go see someone else".

[bcammack]

Danny,

What you describe is what I have always characterized as the dichotomy between tradesmen and craftsmen. There will always be room at the top of the food chain for good craftsmen because there are people there that will pay for them.

Because I'm a craftsman by nature, I tend not to hire anybody and do everything myself; I can't afford to hire another craftsman and I won't waste money on tradesmen.

I will admit, though, that while I strive for perfection and am not so neurotic that I won't forgive myself when I don't quite achieve it, I find my metric scaling back to where, if it doesn't look like drunk monkeys did it, I'm pretty satisfied with the results. (Primarily because I see so much that appears to have been done by drunk monkeys. That, and the fact that I don't have the time or energy I used to have.)

As I like to tell people, "Many people have paid just a little less for nearly half the quality."

[Brady Watson]

A few points...

-You gotta be your own king. Only YOU know what yout time is worth AND you should NEVER be sheepish or make excuses for your work if you strive to be the best.

-Don't worry about what the morons say. Your friends have no idea what it is like to be YOU. You have to make YOUR assessments and decisions the correct ones. NEVER second guess yourself.

-There is ALWAYS room for the best. Period. Cartier, Tiffany & Co., Lamborghini are all still in business and making money. How's Daewoo doing these days?

-Don't be afraid to turn work down because the customer tells you some cock & bull story about getting it done somewhere else cheaper. I really doubt that as much care is put into the cutting unless the competitor owns a ShopBot. (visions of material just being slapped on a high speed machine and cranked out, come to mind) Chances are the customer will be calling you back next week to contract work at your original price.

-Different customers have different pricing. What one customer will pay, another won't. You need to have a range of pricing...also known as 'the ballpark' that you can intuitively GUESS what the customer will be willing to pay.

-EVERYBODY likes free stuff...and discounts. BE SURE to mention this in your proposal if you can creatively fit this into the job. You will get your price & the customer will feel they are getting value upon reading it AND then when they see the finished parts.

-Treat EVERY customer/job like you are trying to win over the prom queen.

-The bottom line is, give people excellent service at a reasonable price and they'll keep coming back. You'll be their guy. PEOPLE WANT TO BE SERVED - SERVE THEM!

-B

[beacon14]

Way back when I was just starting out an accountant friend of the family told me "charge whatever you have to at first to build up a few customers. After that whenever you have more work than you can handle raise your prices." I've been following her advice for almost 20 years and I still have to turn work down because I'm too busy to even look at it. I guess it's time to raise my prices again.