Confused need help

[siwoodworks]

I have been through this asking questions on other machinery at other sites. You post some questions get answers and then E-mail follows up which are completely different and in disagreement to what is posted on the public forum. I am not angry or going to embarass anyone, I just want some clarification.

I talked to Jamie at ShopBot. He asked what I did and what I was planning on doing in the future. Afterwards he recommended be looking into a PRS standard with a 2hp spindle, air drill, and CabinetPartsPro. It is a package that I could afford in a short time from now and I could always upgrade it in the future.

Then I receive E-mail ,from I would assume people meaning only to help me ,telling me everything from it is going to cost a lot more to get anything that will do well in cabinetry to CabinetPartsPro is a joke. All I want to know is this. Will the standard machine I described dado, drill shelf pin holes , and cutout sheets in a reasonable time while I am doing something else. More or less take the place of an employee.

Keep in mind I am a one man shop. If I got a machine that would process 10 sheets an hour, I couldn't assemble that many anyway. Jamie speculated it could process a sheet in around 15 to 20 minutes. The times varying obviously depending on how much cutting each sheet required.

If you experienced users don't think I will do any good with this setup, please tell me so. I will go another direction. I cannot afford to make a mistake and purchase a tool that will not perform to my needs.

I appreciate everyone's patience and help.

[beacon14]

Chris, I know the tool will do everything you mention because I use it for the same purposes (I have a PRTAlpha with an air drill and a home-made vacuum table with 2 Fein vacs, so very comparable to what you are considering). Sheet times range from under 10 minutes to 20 minutes for sheets with lots of drilled holes. For a typical custom job 10 to 15 sheets in a day is easy, I've set up my machine so it turns the router, dust collector and vacuum off after each sheet so I can get back to it when I'm at a good stopping point; on the other hand when I have a lot of closet parts to get out I can cut 25-30 sheets in a day and still have about half the time for other tasks.

The software you choose will make all the difference. I can't comment on the available packages because I don't know them well enough, I draw all my parts manually and pull more and more from libraries as I get more projects behind me. I suggest you start with the demo version of CabinetPartsPro and work with Ryan to configure it to your methods; if this will satisfy 90-95% of what you need it's probably your lowest cost option. You can get up to speed on the machine this way and then if CPP can't keep up with you you can evaluate other options once you know the machine and what you want it to do a little better.

[henrik_o]

I'll echo what David said: the tool will do what you want, that is not the weak link at all.

However, if I could offer a bit of advice from my own experience learning about the Shopbot via the forums and Shopbot Inc, then purchasing one, getting it up and running, and now producing with it, it is to approach this on a system level. It is easy to get tunnel vision and just look at the machine, but regardless of what machine you decide on it is just one component in your production system -- a very important one, but still just one.

As David says, software is of the utmost importance. You need software that allows you to do what you want done in an easy, repeatable and rapid manner. If you have to fight the software or make up your own workarounds for almost everything, go with something else even if it sets you back a considerable sum of money. This can't be stressed enough, imho.

If you get that working, you have two of the most important links for a production system done, then you start working with the other issues in your system.

You work alone and don't want to hire, so you need to work on this aspect. How will you put panels onto the shopbot, a vacuum hoist or a panel cart or something else? How do you hold your panels down? -- vacuum is absolutely the way to go here. How do you evacuate the parts from the table quickly and efficiently? How do you clean the table? What do you do with the scrap?

When you have this all figured out and working, congratulations, you have a fine tuned production system that will vastly increase your productivity and allow you to process more jobs faster. At that point, when you have it in synch, you can start taking it to the next level. Are you doing manual work that could be eliminated by construction methods/hardware that lends themselves to easy machining on the bot, like using Häfele Rafix hardware? And so on.

Also, understand the productivity curve. You will not experience a sudden increase in productivity, rather you will likely experience a sudden dip, and then it will rapidly increase and slowly flatten out on your new higher productivity level. You can soften this dip by learning as much as you can about the machine, the software and have material handling etc figured out, but it will still be there. If you are on a very tight budget, maybe it is better to hold off purchasing just a little bit longer so you can collect the funds necessary to get you through this dip without getting into a financial bind.

Anyway, the above is just ideas, and no two situations are exactly the same. I wish you good luck with your research, and with the system you finally decide on.

In parting, I don't want to sound too much like a salesperson, but I have had my bot for about two months now, and there is no looking back. My only regret is that it took me so much time to finally move on my instinct to go with cnc.

We are doing a private library right now, and being about half way through it I can say that even though I am still learning, experimenting and tuning my machine, techniques and 'peripherals' (vacuum, material handling, jigs etc) we have cut the production time in half on this job. The work bill for this job is approx. $ 30,000 so half of that is pure profit, on top of the profit already calculated.

Yeah, you could say I'm pretty happy with my 'bot. (And I don't even have an air drill!)

[elcruisr]

Chris, I've been running my 'bot for six years now but in a high production parts cutting situation. I'll echo what is said above. Think total package of what you want it to do from software to finished cabinet and how this setup will fit in that line. My requirements are much different from yours so telling you to mimic my setup would be absurd! This is about being profitable after all. Because of my operation I tend to favor bigger spindles, faster machine and bigger vacuum system with more versatile software. But for a one man shop that is a reasonable setup. The only thing I can't comment on is the software since I have no experience in it. As for upgrading I can tell you that we've upgraded three times in six years as we've grown so yes, it can be done!

[Gary Campbell]

Chris..
I can see that you are going thru the same pre purchase agony that my son and I did just 5 months ago. We needed to upgrade our equipment and were looking for a combination to increase production,quality and accuracy. Having had the machine here are my thoughts, but only as it applies to US and the way WE do our work:

I have not found a part that we, even we as novices can not cut on the bot.
The panel processing times we found here on the forum are accurate, but remember that everyone has the ability to fine tume their machine to their specific application.
Speed and accuracy are on the opposite ends of a teeter totter, when 1 goes up, the other goes down.
The Bot has given us the ability to take on work we wouldnt have bid before we owned it and raised our profits.

Software:
There is no part we have found that cannot be designed and cut using Parts Wizard, which comes with your machine.
In the beginning, our design time was longer than the cut time.
We own CPPro and before the last update, were not really planing on using it, because it wasnt full of the features WE wanted. No Under $1000 program has them all.

[Gary Campbell]

sorry.. hit the post button
Most of the $7500-$15,000 programs can do everything but sell and deliver, but are out of our reach financially.
The more we learn about the Bot and the software, the easier everthing becomes.
Remember, that once you design a component and cut it, the next time it is only a sheet load and 3 clicks to the next panel cut.
The weak link in your production chain will not be the machine, whichever you buy. YOU must learn to operate it. If you find you want to cut faster you must have good bits, hold down and efficient toolpaths. Speed and/or accuracy will be limited by the operators decisions more than they are by the machine. As a 1 man shop I still think that the machine you have spec'd above will serve you well, and gives you one of the only options to actually have an operation, whatever it is, happening while you are doing something else.
There are no 2 of us out here that do any one thing the same way, so it is normal to get conflicting answers. Even tho the answers differ, I think that you will find that when the individual has taken the time to learn and practice, no one that has purchased a machine has not been able to accomplish what they set out to. None of us can answer your should I buy it question. Or the will it work for me question. Owning the Bot will be like having a piggy bank, you will only get out of it what you put in. There will be no interest, but in the long run there will be many returns on your investment.
Gary

[siwoodworks]

Thanks for the information guys. I have a panel cart from Hafele and my shop is already gone through a workflow chart and complete change to a process.


My main point should have been I don't mind differing opinions at all. In fact they are very valuable. I just wish they would be posted on the open forum to be debated and see if they have any merit. I being a novice in this area would not likely pick up on some things that would be automatic red flags to others.


And all of you are exactly right. My situation will be different just as all of yours are. I am not afraid of CNC or software, I just wanted to get opinions from some of you who have real world experience with the Bot. I hope no one thinks I am asking you if I should buy. I just wanted to know if what I was wanting out of the machine was practical. That has been answered.

Once again thanks to everyone for their time.

Chris