????Where to start??

[soldier9]

Hello everyone, just wanted to throw out some questions and see if you could help me out. I've been coming to forum for about the last 3 months and I've gotten the point where I know that I must get one of these Amazing Bots. I've been looking at a 4x8 standard, is it pretty slow? I've seen the alphas on you tube and they seem to cut fast but haven't found a standard video. R all spindles 3 phase? I only have 220 single in my garage? Why is the foot print so much bigger that the actual size of the machine? I will be using it mostly for my woodworking and maybe if at all possible to make some extra cash so it pays for itself. I would really appreciate any input anyone might have. Thanks

[brucehiggins]

I think you will find a standard w/ router motor to be fast enough. I am very happy with mine.

[khaos]

The larger footprint accomodates the ability to actually use the full work area. You need room for the cutter and its accutriments. Otherwise a 4x8 would really be a 3.2 x 7.2 ish

[tuck]

Armando, I have a 1996 model PRT (standard, very standard, LOL), with a wooden table that I bought used 7 years ago for $4,500.00, computer included. I've done a few upgrades to it and the next one will be the 4G upgrade for about $800.00 just to make it run a little faster. I use mine for my sign business and it's done very, very well for all these years. Anytime I've had a problem I couldn't get solved on these boards, ShopBot Inc. has been GREAT with helping my out, as old as my machine is.

Start out with a router. You can always upgrade to a spindle later if you just gotta have one of them expensive (and complicated) things. I mostly cut HDU (high density urethane foam), and it cuts like butter, so a 3 or 5 hp spindle would definitely be overkill for me. Plus, I don't have to let my router warm up for 10 minutes like I'd have to with a spindle before I start cutting. Time is money!

Seriously, if you had a high production sign or cabinet shop and cutting a variety of hard materials then you might consider an Alpha with a spindle but don't waste your $$$ if'n you don't.

I've been on these boards for many years. I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys post about; "Just ordered my new Bot! Gonna start a sign/cabinet/woodworking (whatever) business!", and then 6 months to a year later you see the same poster under "ShopBot for sale" because they really didn't know what to do with one and need to get rid of it.

These are serious machines for serious craftsmen. If you can afford to buy one just as a hobby interest, then more power to you. Myself, I'd buy a Harley in that case! ;-)

[chiloquinruss]

Armandp - First off I'm in the same boat as you. I would highly recommend visiting a local shop and see how materials are actually secured into a ShopBot for cutting. I have visited a couple and they are real eye openers. I'm more sold now than before after seeing these great machnes in action. Pay close attention to the layout of the shop, where cables are, how is dust collection handled.

As far as I can tell from the ShopBot website the table showing the spindles and routers show all of the selections are available as either single or 3 phase (I think).
Russ

[jamesgilliam]

Armando, If it is for hobby and part time income stick with the standard. Mine, like Mark's, is an older PRT, bought in 2000 or early 2001. All I have ever run is a router, and while it makes more noise, it is hard to justify the cost of a spildle. Ear plugs are alot cheaper. Mine has done everything I have ever tried, from cutting signs in HDU, plywood for cabinets, and just about all woods. Just my two cents worth, but you can only cut so fast without sacrificing the quality of the cut.

[tuck]

I have a friend that runs an EZ router for a sign company near me. It has a 5.5hp spindle that is very, very quiet. One day last year my friend Greg went to change the bit on the spindle and with all of the other noise going on in the shop, he didn't hear that the spindle was running at about 12,000 rpm. It took off most of his middle finger with a 1/2" bit before he knew what was happening.


Moral of story? LOUD ROUTERS SAVE FINGERS!

[harryball]

Never rely on a single sense to confirm a safe situation. Always use 2 or more. In the case of a spindle my two senses of choice are sight and feeling. I always put my hand on the side of the spindle housing to feel for vibration at the same time I look at the collet nut to see if I can see the wrench indentions. This method works well with most tools in the shop, feel for vibrations and look for things you can only see when something is not moving (saw blade teeth etc...) As you pointed out, shops can be so noisy that sound alone should never be trusted.

BTW, taste and smell are not very effective choices. ;-)

/RB

[dubliner]

Thats good advice Rob, just made me think to paint a bright dot on the nut,if its a dot its stopped, if its a line its moving. Like the marks on a prop.

[bcammack]

It is possible to rig a strobe light to the same circuit that turns on a spindle. If the strobe is blinking, the spindle's turning.

[gene]

Brett,
Thats a good idea , Not only to know that the spindle is turning but also gives a caution warning that the machine is fixing to be moving , If this can be done and i'm sure it can , please post the setup .Thanks

[myxpykalix]

Brett,
following up on the idea of a strobe light. I think a strobe light would be hihghly annoying after a while however here is a simple way to rig up a warning light.

The way my box is set up the power doesn't turn on to the cord till you hit the switch on the control box. So unplug the router find a small multi outlet capable of power requirements. Plug the router into that then get a nightlite and plug into the other plugin. The lite won't come on till the power is on. Or you could also go find some type of christmas lite blinking outlet and insert it between the outlet and lite.
EDIT- reread the post and thought about it being a spindle not a router. I assume that the power for a spindle is routed the same way from the box, if not.....NEVERMIND!! lol

[coolhammerman]

Armando:
My 2 cents worth. I have a 1994 vintage PRT 4896 which was very well equipped and has since been upgraded.

Alpha running gear - X,Y and Z cars struts, etc.
G4 Gecko drives
5 Stepper Motors.
Very heavy and sturdy C Channel Stand

Still runs Porter Cable 7518 3-1/4 hp router.
Still has "Open Loop" geared stepper motors.

Bought it used Aug 2006. Total investment with all upgrades is right at $10,000.

Alphas are faster (much faster) but for most cutting operations the limiting factor is the cutter, not the machine except when jogging. I could run a spindle which would be a lot quieter, except when cutting depending on material. So far, not worth the extra cash.

I'm torn between the two ( I absolutely love my PRT ) by only one factor - Closed Loop vs. Open Loop stepper motors. As I understand it, a closed loop stepper motor system keeps track of where it is. If it looses a step or three, it still knows where it is and compensates. Mine, an open loop stepper motor system, cannot remember where it is when (not if) it looses some steps. Consequently, once in a while the machine completely looses it's mind and tries to cut something off it's not supposed to. I have a lathe mounted on the end of my Bot and I use Steady Rests to achieve a better cut on slender material. Every once in a while, it cuts a steady in half!!! Once it even tried to chew through the tailstock on my lathe. I've even had circumstances where I was cutting out several signs from one piece of sheet goods and for no apparent reason, they began to overlap.

If I ever get an Alpha, it will be for the closed loop stepper motor system. For a spindle, I'll simply upgrade my PRT.

Hope this helps. (and hope my understanding is correct)

Ron
http://www.coolhammers.com

[chiloquinruss]

From an outsider looking in I have this observation to make regarding machines and their capabilities and speeds. I come from a computer background. Every company in the biz has two or three different models. The 'C' model is the slowest model in the line and least capabilities, but it also just happens to be the best machine in the line from 3 years ago! The 'B' model is much faster and of course has more capabilities. BTW it is just like the top of the line last year! Now we get to the top of the line 'A' model! It is the fastest, greatest, whiz-bang hum-dinger ever made (until next year of course!).
A PRT or a standard or a servo or a router or a spindle are all top of the line components. They are fast, accurate, and durable, they just might not be the greatest, whiz-bang hum-dinger ever made!


I've been a lurker here for a long time and I'm finally getting my Bot in a few weeks. What I have observed over the lurking period is that ShopBot and others are constantly upgrading the components to make their systems bigger, faster, more reliable. The software dudes are doing the same. If you wait to get the 'best' system you may never end up getting a machine cause' the 'best' won't ship until 'next' year!


OK I'm off my soapbox, and I apologize for wasting forum space.
Bottomline don't worry about speed or the latest whiz-bang stuff. The exception to this rule is of course the folks that are on their second or third Bot, they know what they are looking for, us novices sure don't. Look at the silly questions we ask. I'm getting a machine now what can I do with it? That question gets asked almost daily on this forum. If we can't figure out what to do with it why are we worrying about components?
With inflation factored in, my 2 cents worth.
Russ

[gene]

Russ,
I had a guy tell me that its not obsolete until you out grow it . A cnc is the same as a computer , there will always be a better , faster , smoother one to come . i think a cnc is like a race car, the more money you spend the faster you go. I like my alpha. and i aint going no faster.

[chiloquinruss]

Gene, << I like my alpha. and i aint going no faster >> That's my point. If I had bought the fastest machine three years ago (when I first got onto ShopBots and how cool they are), I would still have that machine. Now that I'm an actual buyer well of course I can't have that 'old' technology!
I'm going with a standard and a spindle and a probe. That's it I ain't gettin' any more than that!
Russ

[gene]

Russ,
wanna bet, You will eventually get a vac hold down system and new software and a few more toys as they come out. I always say i aint buying nothing else (TODAY). That keeps the door open , Remember to keep your words sweet, someday you might have to eat them.....HA,ha,ha,,,