Price FREE NO CHARGE

[coach]

I had a commercial customer ask me to cut 4 sheets of laminated 3/4 plywood.
Basically each 4x8 was cut into 2 pieces with each having a rectangular cut out.
2 of the pcs had to have the laminate removed 7/8" in from edge on 4 sides.
I was to edge band all sides.
The parts would come to me laid up but not edge banded.
I told them $90.00. Flat out told me too high he was getting them done for $25.00.
Told him go back there.
Is it just me or is anyone seeing the same ridiculous expectations?

[bob_s]

Why are you complaining. Probably works out to about $8 per man hour and $9 for tooling, electricity,shop overhead,.... You greedy executives are all the same!

That is nuts - your $90 seems like a bargain.
if it's a charity - sure then ask for someone to pitch in, but if it for a job everyone needs to make a living wage or why do it!
you did the right thing as difficult as it is.
Bob

[cip]

If this guy is getting them done for $25.00 you should not worry the guy doing them will not be in business long. No profit, no overhead, no brains, no business.

[gc3]

sub work out to that Guy +15%...help him go out of business sooner




Gene Crain
www.plantasymaderas

[rb99]

Does anyone have a minimum fee regardless of the job?

I could not see doing anything for $25...


RIB

[myxpykalix]

I had a customer do something similar and after showing him all the steps needed to get his parts cut and the time involved I explained that it would be cheaper for me not to cut the parts but it would be cheaper for me to also use this source and let my bot sit idle. I asked for his name and phone number so i could use him....guess what, he never existed, i expect this may be a similar situation.

[cabnet636]

yes i am seeing ridiculus expectations,

am i willing to participate is the question?
the answer is NO!!

ya' done good!!

jim

[GlenP]

I get them the odd time. I have a few retired guys that get a nice monthly pension cheque that will do anything for little $$. I have told one of them that they make it hard for us that are seriously in business to make a living. His response was too bad for me. I do the same as you David and tell customers to go back where thay came from if they are being cheap. Some just don't have a clue and once you inform them they get the picture and can justify the cost. Others are just plain cheap. Don't back down on your price if you can help it, if you do they will always expect it and remind you of it. The price I charge for services tends to attract quality customers and they all tell their friends. Good work and quality parts require reasonable pay. Take Care.

[carlhopkins]

I am trying to decide how to approach pricing a bit differently. I work some for an insurance restoration company (that’s all they do). I got a call a couple of years ago and they said their custom guy had packed up and moved.
After two years I am getting more work, the project manager seemed to like my price and even told me I was the only one bidding.
Now to the point just last week I get a call, they want an unfinished face frame cabinet complete box. No doors, no drawers, no installation, no hidden costs for workers comp.
I have a price structure that I use “per foot for an unfinished box” and up charge for all parts from doors finish fee to the install.
I gave him the price and he did not seem to have a problem but would have to get it approved. I have hot heard yet, I did call him Monday but he has not returned my call.
Without seeing my price structure I know you can’t tell but I am wondering if I should charge lees for the box and more for ad on to make up. You guys that make your own doors may know what I am talking about. Am I just jittery or what?

Now on a different note, I see first hand what I hear on the news I have several folks that want to remodel but have lost their jobs. Can’t blame them at all but it does affect others that do still have a job they are scared as well. I do hear about future work if I can just hold out until then. Thanks for reading my rant. Carl

[carlhopkins]

I just thought of another great customer of mine. I build presold furniture for him to deliver to the college. Sometimes it requires installation but all I do is build and he has it picked up. I really love this guy. He had me build some units he told me before I bid that he could get them made in Canada for less but he would rather me do it. You got to love good costomers like that.
Thank you Jesus!
Carl

[dakers]

We talked about this at home last night. We sell signs. A guy came in yesterday saying he gets a set of magnetics for $22.00 (12''x24'') He was horrible to deal with. Insulting, belligerent. We get them all the time. We cant match that price. My wife and daughter deal with people who come in. My daughter can't handle sales anymore because of these situations.
I was telling them maybe they should just say to the people when they come in "have you ever bought these type of signs before? what did you pay for them?, Wow that is a good deal, I can save you time by telling you we cant even come close to that with our burden rate per hour. I wish we could but will have to pass on this one"

I was thinking of some magic words to keep them from turning into horrible belligerent jerks after they think we are trying to rip them off and they need to scold us and belittle us.

I do not know, but we can almost tell when they walk in the door anymore. Very pushy, dominant.
I guess it works for them or maybe it doesen't

[robtown]

The "chatter" about new work has been picking up for the last couple months. I had two jobs fall into place last week that will be very profitable (fingers crossed..).

Things are coming around.

I don't fear the remodelers and cabinet guys who work out of thier garage. They'll take care of themselves and remove themselves from the gene pool by under pricing 9 times out of 10.

[ghostcreek]

Seems we all get those special customers that know what we should charge, even though they don't care about the costs involved. The old "I just want a simple widget", has come to my shop too many times during this slow down. I know first hand how hard it is to turn down a job, but sometimes you just got to be real. I too hear alot of "talk" about jobs coming up, but they never seem to materialize to my or any other shop.
The "good/Serious" customers are being honest. They love our work, but can't spend the money right now. I think we all feel that pain.
My shop is barely making it, but we will keep our heads up, and retain our Quality, Pricing and value. Our reputation will be constant.
Sorry about the rant, these times are tough. I am very happy for all of you that have work in shop. Go get them!

[phil_o]

When the economy was better a lot of contractors would size up (quickly) a job they didn't want to do and say "I'm booked for a while, I'll get back to you with a price." Most often I never heard from them again or they would quote a really high price.

[gc3]

We get lookie loos all the time also...after years of insults I finally started using as the first question...what is your budget, second...the reason I asked is because you probally can't afford it...those two things have gotten us more customers and stopped the people who are price/information shopping...




Gene Crain
www.plantasymaderas.com (http://www.plantasymaderas.com)

[gerryv]

I went on a local art tour last week. Certainly, a number of those with showings fit into the "starving artist" pigeon hole, but not all.

Most were doing their best by handing out business cards, brochures, homemade cookies, fresh fruit and even samples from local wineries to the point where it became expected and, well, normal.

One of them, lived in a rather sumptuous home with several rooms of the first floor dedicated to the display of her art. It was some of the better stuff we saw but not the best, based on our tastes anyway. She didn't offer any of the above freebies as an enticement but was being approached by many, many more shoppers than any of the 30+ others that day.

She did however have several little trays of dead-simple, tiny, but otherwise "original" painted clay thingies. Very cute, all of them. The price was 5 cents each - 10 cents for the slightly bigger ones! Her initials were on each one :-) Because they were being sold, the buyer had to approach and meet her to pay for their pieces of original art from a successful and very pleasant artist.

I think I may know why she owns the biggest house in that prestige area. I believe she knows she has to do something different and more memorable than those equally good or even better skilled artists working out of their garage. Something that costs her nearly nothing in materials during those down times but seems to turn the trick in expanding her customer base in slow economic times. Maybe even a conversation piece to trigger 2nd hand references?

Thats my take on it anyway.

[navigator7]

What a universal thread!
I owned my own concrete pumping and crane service business for many years. Had my own website and forum.
Many times I saw my competition working in my own backyard. It hurts. So what?
Frankly....When working at a loss it's hard to make it up in volume.
Comments in this forum could be copied and pasted over there and vice versa.

Yet: Advice in this area is much easier to give than to apply.

To me.....The ability to produce something entirely "Custom" for a customer is a feature you must whiff into the olfactory of the customer.

We live in a day and age where everybody owns the same stuff. We have the same cars, the same clothes, the same door mats, the same coffee cups.....it's all plastic, sterile dehumanizing and IMHO...it's figgen surreal. A brother in law made a hand carved sign which adorns our house.
It's not perfect but we love it.
My all time favorite CNC plasma cut sign shouted: "Go Away!" It was over the entrance to a ranch. I laugh every time I see it.

"Originality" is a valuable commodity if you can sell it?

There are basic essentials to making a sale:
o Believe in your Product
o Knowledge
o Performance
o The Pitch
o Reading the Customer

"The Greeting" is all important but don't talk price.
"The Warm Up" is a must. When price is discussed you are done talking. LISTEN TO WHAT THE CUSTOMER WANTS!
"Selling the Features" of your product creates a mental image. "Are you looking for Walmart sterility, poor quality materials, cheap conveyor belt pricing or were you thinking of creating some original designs and features you and your wife have always dreamed of?"

If I wanted a plywood board cut in half visiting a cnc router shop might get results but a friend with a saw is a much better deal.
Hand carving an architectural design into your house would never happen but the possibilities are exploding today.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/33/Project_Triangle.svg/300px-Project_Triangle.svg.png

When a customer asks "How Much" and you respond with a price....you've sold nothing. Price ends the conversation and if the conversation is not handled properly, the customer is on the street or in the phone book looking for the next guy to beat up.
Rather:
Customer: How much for XYZ?
Me: Hi! My name is Chuck, what is yours?
Customer: I just want to know your price? (No name given? No price given!)
(You bet they want to know price...and they will keep shopping for a price until they run out of time or have a head-on with a salesman. You got to be careful here not to insult the caller with quips, muck up a sale by your own bias, the fact you are being shopped, and maybe even giving off gasses the customer might interpret as no confidence. You must control the conversation....He called you!)
Me: Do you want top quality, fast turn around and the cheapest price?
Customer: Yes I do!
Me: So do I! My fastest, cheapest and best work is cutting 2 x 4's...really short 2 x 4's. How many do you want? I'm good, cheap and fast! (Some form of humor can be good...provided you can sell it? Otherwise you will be listening to a dial tone.)
Customer: Look....I just want the cheapest price I can get.
Me: Look....I'm in business for a reason. Providing a good service to my customers at a fair price puts food on the table. I know what it means to spend hard earned money. Why don't you tell me what you are really afraid of, tell me what you really want and let's see if we have some common ground? Fair enough?

The next person that talks loses. Or wins depending on how you view sales.

Knowing who to work for is a learned skill coming from experience working for the wrong people.
Money is a universal lubricant and every job goes smoother when money is not an issue.

Whenever I got my marching orders I always informed the customer I'd need check on departure but I included with my request: Money won't be an issue .... will it?" If in person, I'd shake my head in the appropriate direction. Whenever I let down my guard by not covering the money issue verbally during the sale... more often than not I'd have to chase it down. Because I covered this base, I always got paid on delivery and no no-pays.

Not discussing dough after you've sold your service is weakness on your part.
Sell your service...then demand your price.

If a person pulls out the wallet or checkbook during the conversation assume the sale like an order taker at McDonalds.

Like I said...it sure is easy to give advice that works every time it's tried. It sure is hard to follow.
;-)

[navigator7]

@ Carl Hopkins,
You wrote; "I am trying to decide how to approach pricing a bit differently. I work some for an insurance restoration company (that’s all they do). I got a call a couple of years ago and they said their custom guy had packed up and moved.
After two years I am getting more work, the project manager seemed to like my price and even told me I was the only one bidding. "

Ironically, I just returned from a training seminar in Portland qualifying me to be a "Fire Restoration Technician". I work for a home builder who builds from the ground up. We do it all. He, like many of us, is looking at all avenues to earn a living.

I was amazed to learn where the money is and isn't in the biz. I'm a volunteer fire fighter but our area is rural remote. Most houses fires here burn to the ground. The task in these cases is to keep the fires from erupting into a forest fire or burning other houses. Restoration means a new home and misses the services most the guys here can provide.
I had no idea the tremendous income potential created from small fires. People need to contact adjustors and discuss the idea I have below!

Specifically pertaining to most of the readers here is what is called "Protein Fires". Turkey, chicken or food fires etc in the kitchen are protein fires and are the toughest to clean, restore and deodorize. These type of fires are often compounded by what is known as "Heightened Sensitivity" or a psychological factors that only the home owner experiences. Depending on heat, fire duration, the heat line, soot and material burned, a fire in the home can be restored to original condition including odor elimination!

Heightened Sensitivity, however can be a real buggboo! Like the mysterious back pain that only the patient feels but not the doctor.

Despite what many might think, according to our training, the insurance companies are concerned with a satisfied customer. Overcoming "Heightened Awareness" is very real and very difficult. The insurance companies and adjustors are aware of this issue. Where there is a problem resides opportunity. Couples especially the wife, are psychologically affected after a fire and tend to always smell an odor that doesn't exist to an unaffected passerby. If not handled properly, nobody is happy. Additionally, people tend to use the fire as an excuse to expect their worn out cabinets, furniture, walls, crystal, carpets etc to be replaced with new. The insurance company's duty is to replace "In kind". If they can restore to original condition as done by careful documentation before any work...that is what will happen.

CNC woodworkers can use this angle to their advantage not only by speed and quality but the ability to create original art and incorporate this art into the replacement work!
Might I say .... at no additional charge to the insurance company.

The possibilities are endless but I believe this to be an original idea. Here is an example:

Mr and Mrs America experience a protein fire in the kitchen during a holiday. The kitchen is soiled in smoke, soot and grease, minor damage restricted to some cabinets which must be replaced. The smell is unbearable and living in this condition is not fit. The family and guests are forced to a motel. This creates heightened awareness and psychological factors.

An aware Shopbot user skilled in the use of the some of the artistic programs available might inform the adjustor he is well aware of the phenomenon called "Heightened Awareness". He might suggest to the adjustor 'heightened awareness' may be overcome with some unique, personal artwork incorporated into the cabinet design.

Here is where it gets tricky. What I, as an artist would like and what a customer would like could diverge 180º. It's not appropriate for the craftsman to discuss these things with the home owners before a contract is agreed upon with the adjustor. This is the task of the adjustor ... should he elect to color outside of the lines or cross the double solid lines ....if you get my drift?

But .... if the adjustor were to say...."I'm in discussions with several different cabinet makers. One specifically has expressed an interest in creating custom artwork built into your cabinets. Is there anything of a deeply personal nature or sentimental you would enjoy viewing our your new cabinets???"

Like what? They might ask

"The cabinet maker was thinking about a wedding picture or a family portrait or a favorite scene or perhaps even text with a favorite motto".

Me personally.....I'd love a carved base relief of our favorite picture of me and my wife with text reading 'Welcome To Our Home' and a few pines and mountains scattered about carved in a cabinet panel.

The idea is to create something very unique and thereby overcome the heightened awareness issue.
Done right, the adjustor becomes your best salesman as do the home owners and all who visit.
To me....This is functional advertising and any extra cost could be written off as such.

I'm just kicking out some ideas addressing this new economy. I find the idea equal to the people, programs and machines. I worked for a cabinet maker rebuilding cabinets in a fire damaged home in the 60's and the people were simply happy with simple results. Back then, no Lowes, no Home Depot no buying online and no warehouses full of CNC machines cranking out product while cranking down profits. Just fields of new homes...not today.


(Regardless...don't forget to include the replacement "neutral" panel for when the couple divorce and sell the home)
;-)

[jseiler]

Chuck, this series of posts was awesome. Drawing a distinction between cheap walmart stuff and the things we can do is critical to getting a reasonable price.

Another thing to consider is price anchoring and it is hard to overcome. If a potential customer goes to walmart first to find out how much something should cost, they will fight irrationally against anything that costs more than that. It takes some persuasion to undo that anchor. One way is to draw distinction like Chuck does above:

"Are you looking for Walmart sterility, poor quality materials, cheap conveyor belt pricing or were you thinking of creating some original designs and features you and your wife have always dreamed of?"

Another way is to make the choice to have you do the work a relief from anxiety, like what's going to happen when the customer answers this question:
"Why don't you tell me what you are really afraid of, tell me what you really want and let's see if we have some common ground? Fair enough?" If you can address the anxiety issue, the customer will end up very happy with no buyer's remorse. These are the kind of customers that send more.

John

[coach]

So it continues..........
About a year ago new management took over 5 properties I had been supplying with tops and cabinets.
Finally got some work from them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2 tops 48" Almond laminate. Back and 1 side splash.
I charged them $60.00 each. Had a guy deliver them today and they want to know when we are installing them?
MAN O MAN people is nuts these days.
15.00 a linear foot with 1 end capped and a side splash. That is Home Depot prices.
I'm getting ready to hang it up if it doesn't turn real soon.

[gerryv]

The single best way (that we can control) to take our economy back is not to stop buying Chinese, Indian, etc. Unfortunately that's not possible anymore.

However, what could have a truly dramatic and relatively fast impact is for all of us to start returning everything that is defective, not as advertised etc. and especially start demanding repair parts at Walmart, Sear, Target, Canadian Tire (please don't someone get rude and ask who the hell they are again), Harbour Freight, Grizzly, etc., etc. In other words, apply the same standard as we do to our much higher quality, home grown manufacturers like your favour cutting tool supplier or, yes, Shopbot. We need to start phoning them and demanding tech support too when the instruction manuals are useless or non-existent although, admittedly that will have less impact on their bottom line - all they really see.

Basically, our biggest retailers, warehousing distributors, importers, etc. would be forced to rethink and refocus their buying habits for the simple reason that China does not take back returns, whereas our manufacturers are forced to. And, we can do it without any need for government intervention in any way.

We can't stop buying made in China quickly because there's often no choice but we sure as hell can force their prices up a lot and quickly by forcing the same return policies on them through our millions and millions of day to day purchases. That's where we have real power. But we all need to do it.

[rb99]

Perhaps the cost of fuel will eventually shut down the imports. If oil goes up and up, at some point they won't be able to fill ships with cheap stuff and still make money. If shipping starts costing more than the goods "buy local" will start to become cheaper than imports...

RIB

[ron brown]

"Perhaps the cost of fuel will eventually shut down the imports. If oil goes up and up, at some point they won't be able to fill ships with cheap stuff and still make money. If shipping starts costing more than the goods "buy local" will start to become cheaper than imports... "

I couldn't resist posting to this ..........

Please find and calculate the cost of shipping by water. I think you will find the "Fuel Costs" of an ULCS, aka "ultra-large container ship", may be more efficient than a bicycle. I'd near bet there is more fuel used in loading and unloading the ship than a ship traveling from China to the American wunderland.

Ron

[rb99]

I think you will find the "Fuel Costs" of an ULCS, aka "ultra-large container ship", may be more efficient than a bicycle. I'd near bet there is more fuel used in loading and unloading the ship than a ship traveling from China to the American wunderland.

That sucks...

RIB

[navigator7]

@ Ron and Richard,
I spent 20 years working on the ocean. I would not debate you.
Shipping by water is exteeeeeeeemly efficient.

The cost of fuel is not the issue.

It's the cost of government.

[myxpykalix]

don't forget the pirates...I hear the cost of those 3 bullets was extremely high.....for the pirates that is!!!

[ron brown]

I roughed the fuel costs ... I used the largest engine made - 1600 gal/hr+;30 mph for the ~ 7200 miles from Hong Kong to LA; 10,000 containers at 40,000 pounds each. I came up with ~1.5 gallons a ton as ocean freight fuel use.

Now, this may not (may as an understatement) be exact ... or even close as I used the highest consumption engine for a 20,000+ container carrying ship and used a slightly lower speed than the ships of that size actually run. And, I was driving while juggling the numbers. But, it does give one the fact that fuel is a very small part of the costs of ocean transportation.

Even small boats that do not exceed 'hull speed' are very economical to run. If I decide to retire to/on a boat, it will be a displacement hulled power boat of (relatively) low weight and speed. From what I can calculate, I believe it will be cheaper to buy AND operate than a sailboat.

Ron