Startup costs and other questions

[fredtoo]

I'm in the preliminary planning stages of buying a ShopBot which include moving to a new home, building out a two car garage and consolidating my finances. I've decided on the PRSalpha 96-60-8 with the standard accessories for $15-16K depending on the spindle. I'm also springing for the Vectric package. Planned use of the Bot will be primarily signage with some dabbling in cabinetry and furniture. This could possibly change as I understand the local market better. I've alloted time and $ for training as well as installation and probably a Fein based vacuum system. My questions; 1) If I pick the Bot up I assume I'll need to pay NC sales tax. If I have it shipped out of state do I pay sales tax? 2) Realizing as my skills and needs mature I may need other hardware/software, is there anything I'm missing that I'll really wish I had ordered from the gitgo?

Thanks in advance......

[rustnrot]

Living in GA and considering a new machine, I called Shopbot about the sales tax issue. You may not have to pay sales tax if you pick it up, provided you meet the requirements on a form that you must sign. If shipping, I do not believe sales tax an issue, but check with them to be sure.

I am not sure what Vectric package you are considering but I just got Cut3d (I won it as a door prize at the Atlanta Camp). It is fabulous and if I had not won it, I would have run right out and bought for the $300 bargain it is after seeing a demo of it in Atlanta.

[ryan_slaback]

Greg, Not to be an IRS agent or anything but if you buy anything via interstate commerce you are supposed to declare that on your state income tax and pay it then. That is why you don't pay it in the state of sale. In Wisconsin anyway.

[richards]

That's the way it is in Utah, also. As a businessman, you'll have to declare the value of all items purchased tax free and then pay sales tax on those items. In Utah there are some exceptions - mainly based on expanding an existing business or starting a new business. The people in your state's tax department can help you understand your legal liability. It's always better to pay what you owe, when you owe it, rather than pay later with interest and penalties added.

[fredtoo]

Whoa, I'm not looking to do anything that hints of tax evasion!!! I really should have asked my accountant question #1 rather than throwing it out there the way I did. My primary interest was/is; when I walk into the ShopBot store with a fist full of dollars should I plan on paying sales tax (lets leave that one for my accountant) and should I plan on other nice to have accessories/options, other than the included accessories, so I'm not on the phone in a week ordering something?

[ryan_slaback]

Greg, good to see you weren't planning a Willie Nelson or Rollie Fingers...

As far as accessories I think it is absolutely insane to buy a bot without a z zero plate and a proximity switch set up. They will help you find a 3 dimensional origin (0,0,0) easily and repeatably. You also might want to look into a probe if you are going to be doing 3 dimensional reproductions.

[dubliner]

I believe they are included with the machine, aren't they?

[rustnrot]

On a new PRS standard machine it appears that prox switches, z-zero plate, and e-stop button are standard features. 3D probe is extra.

[elcruisr]

Don't forget to budget for tooling. You're going to spend a fair amount the first few months as you begin to figure out what you need. Cheap stuff is OK for the first experiments but don't scrimp on tooling once you learn the ropes, it will cost you in the end.

[jhicks]

I didn't see a Dust Collector on your list but you will definately want/need one.

[harryball]

Some thoughts after 5 months ownership...

The digitizing probe can be useful and you'll probably want one, but don't expect to get it and do 3D digitizing work for hire the next day. It takes a signficant amount of time to scan a 3D object. You'll need software to back up the results as well.

Vectric products, just buy them all. Outstanding software and with the recent hints about the new Vcarve Pro coming out in a few months I think it'll become an even better tool. You get 1 year free upgrades after you purchase.

Software. Again, depends on what you are doing. If you need a cabinet package you can spend a little or a lot. I find between Vectric products and PartWizard and CorelDraw X3 I get 98% of the things I need done. The remainder is Cabinet Parts Pro, hand coding and begging/borrowing from other botters.

Tooling. Don't be cheap like me :-) I recently attended a shopbot camp and learned a great deal on tooling. I placed an order, one 1/4" cutting bit was $60. There is a night and day difference having the right bits. I purchased a bit I've already owned 3 of by other various mfg. I run it on my router table to cut side vents. I only paid a couple bucks more but the difference is amazing.

I don't know what you'll be cutting the most of, but invest in a good table top. Read the board and ask questions. Also, if you don't go with a vacuum pump and can afford the twin Fein setup from the start, do it. Otherwise do your table right and use a shopvac or something you already have and save up for the Feins as I'm doing now.

Get a spindle. Remember, the 2.2HP spindle is better than a 3.25HP router. It has more torque and it's power distribution curve is wider. It is quieter and less vibration.

If you have 3 phase power, use it. If you can get it and plan to do any production work carefully consider the costs but having 3 phase will improve your options with vacuum pumps and VFD drives. The 3 phase VFD drive is about 1/4 the size of the single phase drive. It is much less complicated and runs cooler. I'm wired for 3 phase but the power company can't deliver it to me.

I do all my own electrical since I have the background and tools. If you have any doubts about your skills or are not comfortable working with the power be prepared to pay someone to do the job. I installed a subpanel at my bot location and pull the power I need from it. I also drilled the concrete and installed an 8' ground rod next to the machine.

Attend a shopbot camp ASAP. Just find one and go. Spend some time with the people and looking at the machine. Ask questions.

I really really really really rea... (you get the idea) wish I'd found a way to get the 2nd spindle on mine. If our production goes as planned it's the first major upgrade purchase I'm planning.

Lay your shop out well. Invest in plywood storage in the beginning. I still have stuff stacked on top of another and I need to spend some money getting a rack together. I just never seem to take the time to do it.

Don't forget you have and will need other tools. If you plan to do parts with tabs on them, a good bandsaw with a 1/8" blade and a spindle sander will speed you along your way during cut out and clean up.

Hope that helps,
Robert

[davidflana]

He all!
I am a newbie too. My bot is coming in Feb. I am concerned that I should have bought the vacuum hold down, but I do not have 3 phase, and I was told by the Shopbot guy that I should not get the 7.5HP "roots" single phase model..

What is this "FEINS" option, and also what can be done with a shop vac?

I got the 96x48 bot and plan on slapping 4x8 sheets of 3/4" MDF on and cutting 2D shapes mostly, and maybe some signage. I figured I would clamp the piece down making sure that the parts are arranged in such a way that the cutting would not hit the clamps, and then I would "onion skin" the cuts so the whole boards stayed together. Is there a better way?

Thanks, and can't WAIT to get my bot!!

Great post R Ball- VERY helpful!

[rustnrot]

Folks, there seems to be alot of new Shopbots being purchased. I am getting a new PRStandard basic machine. I was previously using a PR machine with dos controller.

Are you all buying the 4 by 8 PRstandard setup for $7995? It has the same new type rails and gantry as the PRSalpha as well as it comes complete with e-stop, proximity switches, z-zero plate and PartWizard software (none of which I had on my wooden table PR), as well as Gecko controller.

[denver]

I just bought a PRSalpha, and besides the machine, I expect I'll probably spend the price of the machine again on other things for it over the next few months. Some of the additional items I've planned for are:
1. Electrician
2. Dust collector
3. Air compressor
4. A couple Fein vacs
5. Materials for the support and spoil/bleeder boards, including glue, varnish, etc.
6. Some initial materials like Trupan, Baltic Birch, etc.
7. A selection of bits - I bought the SB starter kit, but I'll probably need more.
8. An additional PC to run the machine.

All that probably doesn't add up to the price of the machine, but there are going to be a lot of other things I haven't thought of yet.

Thanks,

Denver

[butch]

I just purchased an Alpha 96 in November. I am in the process of starting a wood shop.
I have a 40X30 shop that I put up a couple of walls to add a storage and a finishing room.
I had a table saw, some sanders and radial arm saw, but saw a need for a planer, jointer and a larger sander and 2 1/2 horse dust collecter.
I purchased a 15" open ended belt sander, 15" planer and 6" jointer. In addition I purchased a router, 10.8V I-driver. I have built a better assembly table, router table, parts cart.
I am in the process of designing a program and clamp for the ShopBot so I can build dove-tail and other joints on the table.
All total I have invested $32,000 in equipment and shop remodeling.
When I purchased the ShopBot I got V-Carve, Photo V-Carve, probe and the Z-zero plate. I would still buy the V-Carve but probably not the photo- V carve if I were to do it again.

[scottcox]

Butch,

You may want to see Morris Dovey's Shopbot joinery system here, (http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/cnc_joinery.html) and his "JointBot" here, (http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/JBot.html)

Very interesting use of the bot.

Scott