Ecogate Dust Collection Control system -- anyone used it?

[henrik_o]

I'm thinking about going with this system for parts of our main line DC system. Anyone here using it that can give pros & cons?

Their homepage is www.ecogate.com (http://www.ecogate.com)

[beacon14]

I have a friend who outfitted his shop with it.

Pros: Works well and is very convenient. Saves steps and ensures dust collection is on even for cutting one part.

Cons: It's expensive

[brian_h]

I've heard not to use the vacuum turn-on function if you have a big cyclone dust collector. The big units are designed to turn on and stay on. On-off, on-off, on-off is really hard on them. I was looking at the system once, just to open and close the gates. I found some remarks on the web about someone having problems with gates not opening all the way and I decided to spend the money on something else. I have no first hand knowledge about their performance.

[blaz_in_az]

I use 5 each, "Long Ranger" gates, which turns on the my cyclone style vacuum system. It is comparatively inexpensive. (And you can't forget to close gates and wonder why you have no vacuum.)

You can go the www.pennstateind.com (http://www.pennstateind.com) to see both ecogate and the long ranger system for feature an price comparisons. I like mine very much.

[fleinbach]

Henrik,

Thanks for the link this is just what I was looking for about 2 weeks ago. My shop is split between 2 floors and it's always a pain to have to run up or down the stairs to close a gate left open running the last tool. The gates are not priced to bad for the 4" model at Grizzly.

Tim, Sorry I don't have a good report for the gates you are using. I purchased 2 of them about 2 years ago and they where both broke within a month. But then employees can seem to find a way to brake almost anything I guess.

[mzettl]

Henrik,

I have had an Ecogate system on my Oneida cyclone for about 4 years. I have a small, primarily hobby oriented shop. Generally, I have been pleased with it. It certainly offers a great deal of convenience.

However, one must be wiling to carefully review all of the documentation and troubleshooting procedures. The system is customizable to a great extent, although the default settings will work in most situations.

I have not had any major component failures. The most bothersome problem occurs when one of the sensors picks up a false signal, opening a gate and turning on the cyclone inadvertently. This can apparently be caused by something as mundane as a fluorescent light to close to the sensor wire coming from the machine. Solution to the problem usually involves rerouting the wire.

I have had that problem with the ShopBot. While warming up my HSD spindle, as the speed is increased to the maximum 18,000 RPM, the gate at my drum sander will open, and the collector starts. When I drop the speed back down, the gate shuts, and collector turns off. Since I am currently in the process of enlarging my shop and rearranging equipment, I will see how it does with the new setup. It has been a minor inconvenience to this point.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I cannot get it to run in "automatic mode" with the ShopBot. The sensors are activated either by motor vibration or by motor current, depending upon which sensor you elect to get. Since the spindle and control box are on all the time, the collector would be on with the gate to the Bot open if it were connected in the usual way. With the standard system, there is one remote switch supplied, and I have this located where I can turn it on when I run the Bot. This does require a manual gate, as the switch only turns the cyclone on and off. I imagine that someone with more knowledge of electronics than I could figure out something more effective.

All in all, I'm happy with it. For me it is a luxury, but I'm not sure that the convenience fully justifies the price in my situation. In a commercial shop with more than one user and a large number of machines, I think it may be a more reasonable from the standpoint of an efficient shop environment.

I hope I have been helpful. If you have any specific questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Matt

[dewey_dog]

Heinrik, I also thought about getting an ecogate system but did not want to spend the $. I did some research and ended up putting a current sensing transformer in that was packaged with a relay. I used this to switch a contactor turning on my DC. I also put in a delay whic switches off the DC about 15 sec. after the machine is shut off. I completed this for I think under $150 and some electrican friend's knowledge. I do not have the automatic gate opening but this has become habit when hearing the DC come to life.

[harryball]

Being a small one man shop the manual gates work for me. I have a 3HP Oneida with the remote control built into the magnetic start switch. I keep the remote on my vest and start/stop the DC as needed. Occasionally I will forget to close a gate somewhere and have to walk around but I find that doesn't happen as often anymore.

I saw a system in a shop once that turned on when any gate was manually opened. Once closed there was a few minute delay and the DC would shut off. I don't know if it was a retail or homemade system but it was interesting.

Robert

[dewey_dog]

After reading my last post I should have added the dust collector is automatically switched on when a tool is started.

[oddcoach]

I have an ecogate system. I do not have the shopbot hooked to it but it turns on when I turn on the spindle. I called ecogate tech support, they said to switch the wiring to shielded cable and that should solve the interference problem. Why they don't supply you with shielded cable is beyond me. I would have paid the extra when I bought it just build it into the price. Other than that i really like it

[jdgrahamwaldorf]

Shopbot makes a relay control board for the air drill and spindle fan that has five relays on it. From my talks with shopbot support I believe this board can be used to turn on and off a dust collecter and open blast gates from the software just like activating the air drill.

[henrik_o]

Wow, so many replies. Thanks to all who responded and provided input, and especially Matt for the comprehensive review.

First, on the matter of economics, my situation is probably a bit different from most. I live and work in Sweden, where we have sub-zero degrees Celsius (i.e snow) for about four months, add three months with really chilly climate though not below zero the entire day + night. Our main line DC exits the building: the hot nice shop air is mercilessly sucked out. A normal winter month my energy bill, just for heating, is around $1500-2000, depending on how cold it is outside. At least 1/3 of this is due to the DC, and that's a minimum. As such, if I could cut the heat losses due to DC in half, I would save at least in the order of $250-333 per month, or about $1300-1800 per cold season.

Obviously, I am looking into cleaning and re-entering the DC air back into the facility, but so far this solution seems very costly as a direct investment given the volumes of air we currently produce, so before I pursue this further I want to make every effort to reduce this volume, hence the need for some form of DC control.

Secondly, also on economics, the Ecogate system is ridiculously inexpensive compared to the standard solutions offered by DC specialist companies over here in little Sweden. Rockler demands $680 for a basic GreenBox control unit and 8 automated gates. Just as a point of comparison, VentoNova et al over here charge about $200 per blast gate (electrically actuated), add to that motor sensors from Felder for $300, and we're speaking about $2000 for a system like the Ecogate without the control units for integrating motor on/off with blast gate open/close.

Third, problems. I've emailed Ecogate about compatibility with out electrical system, but so far I have not recieved an answer, which I think is pretty bad since I wrote them a week ago. It would be really, really great if it did work even with some workarounds, but I expect them to tell me to buy from ecogate.eu (and probably at a price at least 200% over what Rockler charges). There's also the issue with buying from distant sellers if something goes wrong and I need repair/spares.

In any case, the reviews here does make me more adamant about pursuing this as a possibility. Off with me to write them again and demand answers

[lto]

I am also researching options allowing the extension of a larger dust collection system without replacing the existing fan, bag house, etc. In theory at least EcoGate would serve my purpose, I need to learn more about reliability in an industrial setting. One negative to confidence in EcoGate is their unhealthy appearing financial condition; http://www.pinksheets.com/otciq/ajax/showFinancialReportById?id=11146.

I want to check out this company's similar offerings; http://www.kbduct.com/autoaire-pneumatic-gate.shtml.

The concept of using the least amount of air movement necessary is appealing, as long as we're not adding more potential for down time.

Keep posting your findings.

[myxpykalix]

This is strictly an uneducated suggestion but what about some type of heatpump system that captures the "used" are and reuses it?

It sounds to me like you are just sucking hot air out of the building and spitting it outside. You need to somehow filter that air and recirculate it. I wonder if there is any solar solutins that might help.

[harryball]

You need an air to air heat exchanger... but I don't know of any that handle enough CFM for take on a DC system. I'm sure there is probably such a thing out there somewhere though. They can recover 60% or more of the heat from the outbound air and put it back into the incoming air.

A large filter system is also a possibility, but then you have filters to deal with cleaning.

Robert

[harold_weber]

Henrik, you may have more luck searching for "recuperator" in conjunction with words like "building air", "factory", or "ventilation".

If you install one of these, you may want to have an access panel to periodically clean the outgoing air side heat exchanger surfaces. You might be successful installing permanent spray nozzles and occasionally spraying a water based cleaning product while the system is running, but seeing where you live, that may not work so well for you in the winter months...........

[lto]

Henrick,
I think you really need to check into what we would call a baghouse filter. We have one that we've run 15,000 CFM of air through, averaging 48 hours per week, since 1989. The filters need to be washed or replaced every 14 to 18 months. The regular cleaning is automatically accomplished via compressed air jet at about 5 minute intervals. Our unit is installed outdoors, therefore startup on cold mornings is chilly until the steel is warmed. Many similar systems are installed indoors if the space is available.

[henrik_o]

I have looked at what is called a frånluftvärmepump (exit air heat pump, or somesuch) and a luft-luft värmepump (air-air heat pump).

However, systems like these that can handle such volumes of air seem quite costly; $5000 minimum, but you can easily spend double that. There's also the issue of dust, I'm not sure how well they can handle that.

A by far cheaper solution would be to attach an air filtration unit to the external DC exit cabin and suck air back in. The problem with this solution is that we're talking seriously dirty air so we'd need to change filters very often, which adds to costs, it's messy to do, and even the best (reasonably priced) units do not clean more than 90% of the smallest particles. With these volumes that means a lot of the small stuff, which is the worst in health terms, will re-enter the site.

One idea might be to piggyback two JDS-type air filtrators. That should take care of the particle problems. Still caught with many filter changes, but I could live with that.

How much of the finer particles does a cyclone catch?

[lto]

Ideally run everything through a cyclone, followed by a baghouse, then return to biulding. Modern baghouses will deliver clean air. I could possibly find some relevent links, for sake of scale, do you know what volumn of air you are moving?

[henrik_o]

LTO,

I missed your post before I replied above: I'd be very interested in learning more about baghouse filtration.

The main DC line is rated at about 10,000 CFM. We have two other exiting lines as well, but they are used relatively infrequently compared to the main line, so I'm not that concerned about them.

Edit: Correction, upon looking at the latest inspection protocol it is rated at 7,500 CFM. I had it confused with the total for that exit point which is about 10,000 but that also includes a smaller line.

Air speed through the horizontal 6" main stem with one port open is approx. 2500FPM.

[lto]

This is the type of solution I was refering to:
http://www.batech.info/Batech%20Pages/Bag%20Filters/Fabric%20Filter%20Small%20Medium.html
Also;
http://www.industrysearch.com.au/Products/Modular_baghouses_for_timber_industry-15229

[Brady Watson]

Here's a low-buck idea along the same lines:

http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot112.shtml

-B

[henrik_o]

LTO,

when I first saw the systems you linked to I was going "ok, that's nice and totally out of my league cost-wise".

Then I opened up the catalogue of my local air processing supplier, and was surprised. They sell a unit called "LS", you can see it here (http://www.lajac.se/filter_ls.htm). Starting price for what I assume is one of the four modules shown in the pic is $3000, add $1250 or thereabouts for mechanical shaking of the filters in addition to the fan cleaning supplied with the basic unit. The unit looks extremely tall, but since I have about six meters vertically to work with it might fit; I could install something taller but then we need to go through a roof and that's not much fun.

This is quite a lot in price, but within reach of what I could spend. The thing is, however, that this company is very professional and works mostly with big industries and they charge very high: the items I can check against other vendors regularly cost three or four times as much with this company. While I wouldn't expect to be able to buy a system like this for a third of the cost, if I could get it direct from the manufacturer or at least a better priced vendor I may be able to shave off perhaps half the price, or a third.

I need to track down who makes these systems, and I'm not really sure where to start. At least I know now that 'baghouse filter' is called 'slangfilter' in Swedish.

The unit Brady linked to is really interesting, but this is one area where I'd rather not DIY.

[lto]

Henrick,

Sorry about the delay in reply.
This company works in Sweden;
http://www.danthermfiltration.com/Products/Shaker_and_other_filters-9.aspx

I did not consult my charts, but your mention of 7500 CFM traveling through a 6" pipe at 2500FPM doesn't compute.

For smaller systems check these;
http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Order_Page.htm
http://www.wynnenv.com/cartridge_filters.htm

[henrik_o]

Yes, my ratings as stated above are way off. I don't know what I did wrong because I don't have those papers at this computer, but I suspect I used the wrong multiplier when going from cubic meter to cubic feet. Even though I'm not used to imperial (so I don't intuitively know if I'm off), I should have caught it since we were discussing Feins in another thread and their ratings.

I need to look at those papers and recitify the error, sorry about that and I feel stupid when I'm getting so much help. I hope you can bear with me and I'll try to revisit this tomorrow.

In other news, Ecogate still has not replied to my email so I'm kind of beginning to write them off. I really want 6" blast gates anyway so maybe I'll just have to pony up the $250 per gate from my local supplier and be done with it.

[lto]

Henrik,

Depending on your taste, you might be interested in gates David Buchsbaum uses in his shop. I searched, without success, for some pictures he had posted of a dust gate he made on the ShopBot. Maybe he'll see this and post some pics, I thought it was a genius idea for a small shop.

[beacon14]

Thanks LTO but a quick look in my files shows no pics of the dust gates handy, I'll try to get one next time I have the camera in the shop. I think Bill Young may have posted one a while back.

While my gates are certainly unique they are not automatic though which I think is what Henrik is looking for. I suppose for $250 each you could rig up a motor and make it do whatever you want. My plan was to hook a microswitch on each gate so whenever any gate was open the cyclone would be on, but I ended up just mounting a manual switch at each gate location. Still a few trips across the shop to close gates but not too bad anymore.

[rhfurniture]

I too would be interested in an automatic dust gate. Something that opened when I switch the planer on, and closed when I switched it off. I've only found pneumatic ones. How about something with an electro magnet that operates like a solenoid?

[henrik_o]

I'd love to see David's design, but yes, I am primarily looking for an automatic system. That's for 8-10 gates, we have more but they are rarely used so if there's a smart solution for those it's interesting.

Ralph,

Vendors who sell pneumatic gates can usually offer electrical ones as well, however they tend to be a lot more costly. At least over here, where a pneumatic gate goes for $200-250 and an electrically actuated for about $500.

[brian_h]

In the true Shopbot nature, I'd love to see a project to design a DIY gate opener. I've been kicking around the idea for a long time, but it's on a long list of "some day" projects.

[myxpykalix]

This might be low tech and not available where you live but i have seen in the past at my local "Big Lots" store a small motor actuated heater vent that opened and closed the vents for your vents in the walls. I guess for old people who couldn't bend down, ect. I almost bought one but the remote control was missing. It was around $5.00. Maybe you could use the motor and adapt it to your blast gates, i don't know but for you "tinkerers" it might be a low tech, low cost solution.

[henrik_o]

Lo and behold, I got an email from Ecogate. Their system is compatible with my settings. I'm investigating further but if this system works as advertised, the price can't be beat.

More later, as it develops.

[bill.young]

There are some pictures of David's blast gates (and a bunch of other neat things) in the first half of http://www.flickr.com/photos/seaside5592/sets/751257/

FYI, the second half of the pictures are from Brady's shop.

Bill

[brian_h]

Thanks for posting that, Bill.

[waynelocke]

I am getting ready to install an ecogate system which I bought used a few years ago. The controller requires a power relay box for anything over about 2HP and/or three phase. The relay costs just under $200. Can't I just hook up a relay to the output side of the control box which would sense the current and turn the three phase on or off.

Besides knowing how to spell relay and vaquely knowing what they do, I know little else about relays. Am I asking for trouble or about to spend $150 and 2 days to save $50?

[Gary Campbell]

Wayne..
I am not sure I understand your question completely. When you say "output side of the control box" do you mean SB control box or the Ecogate control box? If you want to put a relay on the SB control box you will need to install a TTL Relay board also as the SB outputs are TTL logic circuits and will not activate a relay on their own. They output of the TTL Circuit will actuate a relay that you can use to switch the 3 phase. You should be able to find a 24V coil 3 pole, single or double throw relay that will work for you. Make sure it has an amperage rating on the contacts 50% higher than the stated amps for your motor. If you wanted to use the Ecogate controller to actuate the 3 phase relay, then you would need a relay that the coil voltage matches the output of the controller, plug it in, and using the same selection criteria for the contacts, wire the 3 phase to the relay.
Gary

[waynelocke]

Thanks Gary,

It's the latter. Hooking up to the Ecogate control box. That's kind of what I thought. It doesn't seem like rocket science.

[Gary Campbell]

Wayne..
I just looked on eBay... the ind. surplus vendors have them from $29 to $125 depending on amperage and features.
Gary