Best wood to build cabinet boxes

[drodda]

Just thought I would ask the cabinet comunity what they would use to build cabinet boxes if they were building them for themselves rather than for a customer and profit? What is the best material to use to build a very high end set of cabinets for personal use in my own kitchen?

I am doing cabinets with face frames in case this matters?

Thanks for sharing.

-D

[bleeth]

Dave: You have 3 choices depending on the finish/species of the exterior:
1. Use same species and finish identical.
2. Use prefinished maple/birch ply and veneer the finished ends and bottoms to match face frames.
3. For white easy care interiors use melamine.

[wberminio]

I agree.
I would use same species for any cabinet with glass doors-to match exterior finish
I use prefinished maple/birch for all my other cabinetry interiors
It is easy to clean/durable/saves finish time/weighs a lot less than melamine and looks great!
Erminio

[dmidkiff]

I agree with both Dave and Erminio. Prefinished ply also comes in oak around here. If it does not match the doors and you need to cover sides use either same species or make a raised panel for end.
Dave

[dray]

I am partial to MDF so long as you are doing paint grade or a faux and have a painter that can do very good finishes.

When I think of high end cabinetry I dont usually associate them in my head with stain grade but more on the lines of design.

[hyrum_r]

If it were me, I'd use white melamine(thermal-fused, not the crappy cold-rolled stuff). I know a lot of people won't agree with me, but I believe that a melamine interior will look nicer and last a lot longer than a plywood interior. It's much more scratch resistant, and as long as you don't let water get underneath the melamine coating, it's very water resistant as well.

I can't count the times I've dropped a tape or a hammer inside a melamine box and nothing happened. Try that with a plywood box, and you're in trouble.

I guess the main downside to melamine is the weight. That's why I only use 3/4" for the adjustable shelves. Most everything else is 1/2". Oh, and I also use face frames. I think FF and melamine go great together.

Oh, and on the finished ends, I just glue on an 1/8" skin or build it as a raised panel end, depending on what the customer is willing to pay for.

[henrik_o]

To add a voice from Europe, for a...

quote:very high end set of cabinets

...there is only one choice: double veneered blockboard. This has been the required material for any high end cabinetmaking in the Old World for a very long time. Thankfully, we don't need to produce our own boards these days but can buy them from Decospan in Belgium.

(The know-how continues on, however, in that all gesellschaft examination works where the gesell does a cabinet he or she has to make their own veneered blockboard.)

[Gary Campbell]

Dave...
To start with...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
very high end set of cabinets
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see from the variations in answers above, is interpreted differently by all from their own perspective and markets. I think that all answers above are great, but you said very high end. Our very high end work prices most kitchens are between $100K & $150K and usually doesnt include stone tops or appliances. In these kitchens we will not use any product that has an imitation face. We will not very often use plywood. All casework will be either solids, 5 or 6 piece panels of solids or what Henrik refers to as blockboard. In the old days you could buy it at the lumber yard called lumber core plywood. Nowdays we have it special made or make it ourselves by gluing up staves, planing, sanding and then using thick, custom cut veneers, vacbagging up the panels. Very high end cabinetry is a process of jointery using the old world methods of wood jointery, glue and clamps. No nails, pins, staples or screws to shortcut the drying time. No veneers under 1/16", prefer 1/8" for glueups. No edgeband. No endcaps. No solvent based quick anything. Hundreds of hours of old fashioned hand fitting, sanding and jointing, using modern equipment to improve quality, not production. Every piece is sanded and finished on every edge. Many before assembly.
The walls, floors, ceilings and/or soffits of the room are leveled, plumbed and faired out with 8' straight edges prior to installation. All cabinets are built to be able to be scribed to any minor variations in the walls and floors. The floors are finished and virtually dead level. Most of this scribing is done with hand planes. Cabinets are set with lasers to insure that they are dead level. Once this fitting is complete, all is removed and the walls are finished, prior to the final installation. Any cabinet that shows .05 degree out of level/plumb in any face is unacceptable.
To us, VERY high end is over $1,000 /lin ft for the tops AND bottoms.
Gary

[drodda]

Maybe I did not understand my own question. I was trying to use something other than Melemie for the boxes on some cabinets that I am building and wanted to use a ply that looked nice on the inside as well as the outside.

I appreciate the replies though. Every time I ask a question on this forum I usually get far more information back than I was looking for. However I always store this new knowledge in the back of the mind for future use. I would love to see some of the work done by the "Very HIGH END" cabinet guys.

Thanks for taking the time to educate me on cabinet boxes.

-D

[Gary Campbell]

Dave...
Follow Dave Rosenbleeth's advice above. Go to the suppliers.. pull the sheets out..look at both sides..see how straight they are.. etc. etc.Find something that makes you happy in finish, price and quality.
Gary

[tradition_wood]

We build our boxes out of 3/4" ply, I avoid melamine, I'm to old to hoist the sheets around!
I prefer to use plywood with a multi layer veneer core over standard 5 layer veneer core, just seems to be better over all, at least from my suppliers

Gary, nice to know there are some of us still doing it the right way

[henrik_o]

Gary,

quote: [...] what Henrik refers to as blockboard. In the old days you could buy it at the lumber yard called lumber core plywood. Nowdays we have it special made or make it ourselves by gluing up staves, planing, sanding and then using thick, custom cut veneers, vacbagging up the panels.

I don't know what you pay for custom made, or the quality/service you recieve, but if Decospan sells to North America I'd definetly look into purchasing from them.

I won't oversell it: sometimes the blockboard layer has too much flat grain blocks for our taste, and the finish veneer is standard 0.8mm thickness.

However, we've never had a panel from them warp, and never any telegraphing. Finish veneers are hand matched. They put on any veneer from their catalogue (~150 species iirc) even for just one panel at a 20% price hike, but as long as you order any number from the standard inventory (20-30 species iirc) or at least 10 panels of any species you get it for normal price. Time of delivery Belgium-Sweden is about one week for custom/special, or 1 business day for standards (from the Swedish sales office).

Cost? From $20-40/m2 (or $1.85-3.7/square feet).

Also, if you order a whole set, I think that's 50 panels, you're looking at some serious discounts.

[Gary Campbell]

Henrik..
Most of the commercially available panels use a more cost effective inner core like poplar, I think Decospan is the same if I remember my homework. The panels we have custom made usually have a matching species core and an .080" veneer (2mm) both sides. When it comes to some of the imports, especially the high silica content woods, many shops dont like to make them due to excess tool wear, so we make them. We could only wish they were in the $3.70/sqft range, with Teak retailing here between $25/$35 bdft. We could turn a few??? extra dollars.
Gary

[andre]

Why would you build a cabinet box out of solid wood?
Did I hear you correctly?
What about warping and twisting over time? I dont see how you could avoid all the movement, which inevitably leads to doors not closing right and a myriad of other problems.
Gary, I would like to here more about your approach. I was requested once to quote solid wood cabinets from walnut, and I found myself talking my customer out of solid wood boxes because I didi not think I could garranty that they would stay true over time.

I think if Plywood was available 150 years ago it would probably have been prefered. I could be wrong. I stay away from PB like the plague and use mdf when its the only option. My prefered is classic core, part VC with a 1/8th mdf top layer, giving a nice flat surface for veneers.
Prefinished maple is great for interiors and holds up well and in my book is well accepted in custom work.
I never " onlay" a frame and panel end cap. I build a seamless corner of the cabinet that wraps around with no breaks or visible joint. with inset doors that sets them apart from 90% of manufactured cabinets.

[Gary Campbell]

Andre,
I apprenticed in the early 80's under a man that was born in the 1890's. He had 30 yrs in the trade and was in his forties the first time he saw an electric tool operate. Before that it was line drive operated equipment, and before that it was hand only. I sure wish I had met him 10 yrs earlier, as he passed away after a short 3 years. He explained it to me this way: Wood has been around since the beginning of time, plywood and all the imitation lesser costing products mostly since WWll. Skilled tradespeople will take the time to learn the craft and work the wood. The others will take cheaper materials and shortcut methods and make boxes. I have built new frames for 600 yr old Mediterranean doors to install in new homes. Do you think that any of the prehungs available today will be available for reuse in 600 years? Real wood kept inside will last indefinately. I am not sure how long all the glues and resins in the manufactured products will last, not to mention all the seriously unhealthy chemicals used to glue them together. Unfortunately, like most, we must also use plywood panel construction as a cost saving method on many of our projects. But only when we have to.

Most of the methods of modern production cabinetmaking have evolved around either a product or manufacturing process and were designed with only one thing in mind: To lower production costs. No matter how they have been marketed, there is virtually no product or process put in place since 1950 that was done to increase quality or longevity. In my short 30+ years in the craft, I have seen almost every product that was an improvement to "real wood" go away. Some for quality reasons, some for health. But, all gone, just the same. But dont worry, the marketers will have a new bunch out next week.

I have to quit now as I am ready to go an a rant about all the new and improved kiln drying methods out there. Sorry for the length of the post.
Gary

[dray]

When I was younger I did worked for a high end remodel company in Newport Beach, Ca.

Our cabinet guy (big sky) would often do cabinetry the way Gary was talking.

I have actually ripped out cabinetry that was built of all solid in the 30's and 40's on Linda Island and all the doors, drawers still closed. Nothing was perfectly flawless, but it all had been well worn to the point that its beauty was just starting to peak. Kind of hard to explain but it gives a feeling of nostalgia and immediately puts pictures in your head of some old carpenter back in the 40's with an apron on and hand slicks and planers.

Then you just want to rub all over the cabinets with your fingertips lol feel the age, the time and care that was put into them. You can actually smell the age in them!

Anyways, if I could build cabinets like that I would. Theres always a market for the high high end.

[harryball]

I spent precious little time with my Grandfather before he died just after my 8th birthday. I remember him and being fascinated with him and they way he did things. He was never rich, but he was never poor and he was always happy. He loved wood working and was known to drag a downed tree from the woods and make furniture for his house. He never used power tools (not that many existed) and the quiet concentration of him working still sticks in my mind to this day. What I do remember most is he always seemed unhurried and happy in everything that he did.

Somehow, somewhere I wish I could capture that for myself. I believe it is possible if I throw off the model of "success" that the world seems to engrain into us more and more. Once I didn't notice my Mother enter my shop as I was working. I was hand carving a raised letter sign. When I did notice her she seemed almost on the verge of tears, she told me that she saw a lot of her Father (my Grandfather) in me. She never understood how he could work like he did for hours and be so happy and it was one of the few times she saw me that I appeared to be happy.

What does this have to do with Gary's post? Well... what he said got me to thinking about how right he is and the kiln drying comment sort of illustrates it for me. We seem to be forced to gauge success on how much cheaper and how much more we can produce things. It makes me wonder if we haven't missed something along with way. I'm thrilled to see someone using a more patient "old craft" approach to doing things while using modern tools.

Kiln drying is just a short cut because we are too impatient to wait for wood to dry naturally. How much more rewarding would our work be and how much more quality would the end product represent if we made choices based on quality rather than cheaper and faster?

I wonder...

Robert

[wberminio]

IF Shopbots were available 100 years ago, do you think our grandfathers would have said "NO WAY! I like to Hand saw a tree into planks,wait 3 years and then Hand plane/Hand cut/Hand shape/Hand finish them?"
I me an old cabinetmaker in my parents home town in Italy.His shop was a museum.All hand tools made by his father.Wooden planes,clamps.bow saws.....
In the center was a large combo machine(table saw/jointer/planer/morticer )I asked him why the industrial machine?
He told me you have to decide- do you want to make a living or do you want to play around.
I guess that's why I have a Shopbot.

[harryball]

I agree... imagine if those 100+ year old craftsmen techniques and quality values were applied with the tools we have available today. Imagine the frantic rush I see in most production shops going away replaced with patient craftsmanship. Imagine taking the time to use a handtool when the time was right.

I've seen solid wood cabinets before, many had a floating panel design of like the doors. That solved the movement problems of wood. Of the ones I've seen with solid wood I was amazed how the panels didn't warp and split. The techniques used to build solid wood furniture can be applied to cabinetry, it's just expensive.

I don't think there is a best wood for cabinets, I think there is a best choice for what you are trying to accomplish. I use 5/8" particle board for shop cabinets, it's cheap and solid. I use 3/4" cabinet grade plywood for most other stuff in the house. I also use solid wood panels but only for furniture that I've built.

Robert

[andre]

Gary
it is fortunate that you learned your skill through an old craftsman. Although it seems your view of modern technology is pessimistic.
All progress is not made soley in the name of the almighty dollar. A lot of todays materials provide stability and consistant quality that hold strong. Of course you have pb that in my book is good only for making templates and test cuts on the cnc. Mdf is full of nasty chemicals and is very heavy, but very flat and good for certain applications. Trupan is the best of flatness with no nasty chemicals and is light.
Neither hold screws very well though. High quality Veneer core sheet goods, on the other hand I feel offer the best in machining and durability. It could be considered "solid wood" because it is made of solid woods.
I think to imply that one is not as skilled because they use modern products and machinery is simply not true. What does that say about all the cnc users out there? The truth is we develop a whole new set of skill sets that our forefathers did not possess.

[beacon14]

The sad fact is that there are not enough tall straight trees waiting to be cut down for all of us to build every cabinet out of solid wood. The modern panels were mostly born out of a need for a large number of houses to built in a short period of time starting after World War II. Since then the needs have changed to be able to produce decent quality, affordable products in a manner that makes good use of the available resources. Our grandfathers could afford to cut down the nicest, oldest trees (or wait for them to fall down) and leave 3/4 of the tree laying on the forest floor to rot and turn itself back into new trees. Today virtually nothing is wasted, not even the sawdust.

Couple that with the fact that 90% of what we build today will be torn out and replaced in 20 years or less and it doesn't always make sense to use the "best" materials, unless as Robert says it's the "best choice for what you are trying to accomplish". In most of my cabinets the best choice is plain old melamine covered particleboard.

BTW solid wood won't crack and check just because it's solid wood, it will only crack and check (assuming it's dried properly) if it's assembled in a way that doesn't allow it to move with changes in ambient humidity. Raised panel doors or solid cases with the grain all running the same way take this movement into account and can last indefinitely. Gary's solid wood cabinets may be 1/4" shallower in the winter than in the summer, but they'll last practically forever. (My particle board cabinets would last forever too, if they never get wet and don't get ripped out by the new owner the next time the house is sold.)

For my own kitchen cabinets I'm using prefinished maple plywood as it's cost-effective and matches the rustic, casual decor.

[terryd]

Gary,
Having been at this for over a quarter of a century I agree with what you are saying about our craft and materials. The issue with workmanship and tools has progressed with us the human race. My grandparents lived in the same house for 70+ years, my parents live in theirs for 25 years and I have moved 22 times in 30 years. Why would I spend $50k+ for a kitchen in my house that I may be leaving in a couple of years. I have replaced the cabinets in the same local house 4 times in the last 5 years. The next set will be cardboard if I can get away with it. Great materials and craftmanship are wasted on us the land of nomads... We have mistakingly associated change with progress and fashion is how our values are displayed to the world. Just my 2 cents..

TerryD

[fleinbach]

I must say I feel great respect and admire what was accomplised in the old days before power tools. I did not own a single power tool until I was 23 and by then I had built many pieces of furniture and remodled my first house all with hand tools. It did feel great to be able to see my projects completed and know I did them with my own hands.

But I must say once I started purchasing and using power tools I never looked back. With power tools I was able to create more beautiful things only faster. Though it is true some new materials may not withstand the test of time many of the nice things I built with power tools where from solid wood. I will say though power tools prevail there are times when I will use a hand tool because there is no power tool that will work as well on that particular thing.

This brings up one of my little gripes with my employees. To me the most overlooked tool is the plain old hand screwdriver. They seem to think they don't exsist. I have had them tell me more them once when I asked them to tighten some loose screws or adjust some cabinet doors "I can't my batteris are dead" Then I say where is your screwdriver. The usual answer is I don't have one or I can't find it even though I have supplied them with one.

[Gary Campbell]

Gentlemen...et al...
Please do not confuse my comparisons of "modern production cabinetry" with "the old ways" as a personal affront to any individuals skills or competency level. I saddens me to see the degradation of most trades or crafts to the level they are at today. This has been driven, of course, by the consumer and what they are willing to pay for a given item. Many good points are made above defending the modern methodology and materials. My opinion, of course, differs, but since it is mine, I will keep it. And in the future I will try to remember to keep it to myself.

Andre...
I dissagree that my view of modern technology is pessimistic. I embrace it. So did the man I learned from. Any craftsman that does not take advantage of machinery advances is not promoting his craft. Old Tony would talk about the days when a someone would bring in a new tool and show him a new way do do a formerly labor intense job. He always had a gleam when talking about new tools. You should have seen the look on his face when I showed him my air screw gun. No more Yankee Drill for him. Shapers, power feeders, panel saws and of course the ShopBot replace other methods and equipment. We must evolve with our equipment. I did not imply that " one is not as skilled because they use modern products " in any way, shape or form. (period)

As far as the materials go, I am sure that we have all torn apart some 30-40 yr old cabinets one time or another. In most cases the wood plys seem OK, but the glues have deteriorated and the panels are delaminationg, but the solid wood sections all seem relatively
intact.

[harryball]

Gary, I don't see you as pessimistic myself, I think I understand and also have trouble putting it into words. It's almost a "building a cabinet for the sale of building a cabinet" vs. "building a cabinet for the cash" argument.

I've also had plywood delaminate on me, most recently some 3/4" cabinet ply I built my kids entertainment center out of. The supplier seems indifferent though they will give me another piece of ply. I have to wonder if everyone down the line was as concerned with the quality as I am building the finished piece, would it have had the problem? Would the glue formulators and line works etc... think differently?

Anyway, believe it or not the same debate exists with bat houses. What is the "best" material to build bat houses out of? Solid cedar, cypress or exterior plywood, foam, plastic etc... In the end it, as with cabinets, it depends.

Robert

[Gary Campbell]

Guys..
I dont want to leave anyone with the impression that we dont use plywood panels in our casework construction. We do, because we have to make a living. We use 9 & 11 ply materials with top of the line veneers. We are very fortunate to have this market available to us. I feel very fortunate to be able to share it with my Son. Very fortunate to have clients that know the difference and are willing to pay for the good stuff. And last, and surely not least, fortunate to have purchased a ShopBot and gained access to this group of people.
In the end, and to get back on topic, I feel that the best material to very build high end cabinets from, is WOOD! :-}
Gary

[beacon14]

Gary, I hope you did not take any of my comments as disparaging your methods at all - I wish my clients wanted the best at any price, it's just that I've found a part of the market that I can make a good living at. I still pride my self on building quality cabinets.

the best material to very build high end cabinets from, is WOOD! Amen to that!