Indexer (carve blank to a shape) question

[myxpykalix]

I am working on a process to make a shape like this

7965

then spiral it like this

7966

First i've wondered how or if anyone has done anything like this on a indexer? If so, how?

I can use the "carve the blank using a partwizard profile" to carve the shape but i would also like to use the profile to cut the spirals.

[myxpykalix]

I guess what i'm trying to figure out is if anyone can spiral on odd shapes like above before i go and try to reinvent the wheel.

I have seen Christian Magro spiral on a taper but i guess i am trying to figure out whether you could take the basic idea behind "carve the blank to a shape using a partwizard profile" within indexer virtual tool, then take that toolpath information (relevent to the shape) and use it to run your spirals on the odd shape that you used from your partwizard profile?

[cmagro]

Jack,

Spirals shown above are done exactly the same as straight, tapered etc. The only difference is the Z goes up and down more while it's rotating.

Christian

[myxpykalix]

Yes...thats correct. What i had to try to get my head around was, on the legacy all x,y,z moves are tied together via gears and leadscrew. Here all moves are seperate actions and you basically have to train it to move in unison, kinda like marching in a parade.

The action to spiral a column or a vase is the same except with the Z moves. The problem i'm trying to figure out is how to input the Z axis moves to follow whatever profile you make.

I basically need to figure out how to combine the
"carve the blank using a partwizard profile" and the "Forney Fluter".
Do you or anyone have any suggestions?

[bill.young]

John,

Here's how I think I would do it...

*) turn the outside as a regular profile with the Indexer Virtual tool.

*) create a second profile for the grooves you want to spiral using PartWorks or PartWizard, and toolpath it the same way you do for the Indexer profile tool.

*) use the "Flipper" program in the File Toolbox in Virtual Tools to create a new file from that toolpath that's basically stood on it's edge.

*) decide how many degrees you want the spiral to turn

*) create a program (or maybe use a spreadsheet...I'm not fluent in them so not sure) that reads the flipped profile part file, calculated what percentage of the rotation each move along the length of the blank requires, and then writes a new file of M5 commands with that rotation value in the B axis position.

For instance, let's say you had a profile that was 10" long along the blank, and you wanted it to wrap 360 degrees around the blank. For each 1.0" the bit moved along the blank, the Indexer would rotate 360/10 which is 36 degrees.

If your flipped profile started at 0.0 in the X-axis and had these 3 lines...

M3, 2.35, 0, 1.26
M3, 2.47, 0, 1.32
M3, 2.49, 0, 1.35

...your program would multiply the X-axis value by 36.0 and then write these modified lines in your new output file...

M5, 2.35, 0, 1.26, , 84.6
M5, 2.47, 0, 1.32, , 88.92
M5, 2.49, 0, 1.35, , 89.64

Your program would also have to account for the length of the profile and it's start point when you calculate the rotation...they wouldn't all work as neatly as this with a 0.0" start point and 10" length... and also handle multiple copies of the spiral around the blank, but this is the Readers Digest version of how I would do it.

Bill

[cmagro]

Wow!!! Now I remember why I make my turning along the length of the X-Axis (the path to MAKE the turning is the same path used to make the spirals).

And as far as Bill's suggestion....I actually understand it (and agree with it).

Good Luck and let us know

Christian

[myxpykalix]

all i can say is....HUH? lol. I (think) i understand. But using that theory I am basically making a "carving" pattern. It seems to me it would be simpler to make it cut the pattern similar as if it was a turning on a lathe (if i understand correctly).

Christian- the images you posted in the other indexer post i had showing your cutting pattern and how it basically carved your tapered leg. I believe you said you first created the file in a cad pgm.

So for example you had a "hour glass shape" or something curved like say the shape of a woman.
Why couldn't you take that hour glass profile and carve that on a piece of wood.
Then take that same profile as your template to cut say one pass of a rope spiraling bit, move it (X)degrees over then repeat? or am i overthinking it?

Bill- it seems to me that we basically have the different wizards already to accomplish (in seperate steps) my basic idea. It's trying to combine them to make one do something that that other can do, where my theory hits the wall.

If i could also apply my spirals to the "carve the blank to a shape using a partwizard profile"
I might have something.

[cmagro]

Jack,

You are not overthinking it...in fact it's exactly the way you describe...

Using the newel you are used to seeing...

Here is the finished newel...

7967

The newel was created by simply drawing the outline shown here..

7968

From that point the bot just goes up and back..up and back..rotating whatever degree I tell it to at every pass...shown here...

7969

The spiral is nothing more than the path shown in red...

7970

The ONLY difference is that while it is going from start point to end point the indexer is rotating.

The way I use the indexer makes creating the bowl above an absolute cinch....excluding carving out the inside of course.

The "path" you have drawn above (i.e. black arrow) is the only thing I would need to make the bowl AND the spiral (the spiral would be shortened a little at each end though). By using the same path (and method) there is no mistake with regard to accuracy..it's the same code.

Now what this means to you as far as using Partwizard or the indexer tools I don't know so I hope I'm helping and not hurting. Do not try to take my methods and apply them to those others.....THAT would confuse.

Bill's comments are the realistic ones you should pay more attention to with the tools you have on hand...my comments and methods are more "outside the box" and only meant to get the wheels rolling in your brain so you can come up with your own system that incorporates the best of both worlds.

Christian

[Gary Campbell]

Christian...
Taking your example path in red above, and assuming a linear path from Jack's picture above, couldn't you simply take the path X & Y coordinates, place them into a spreadsheet and calculate a column that uses the proportion of x movement to the total of X movement for the flute and applies that proportion to the total of rotational movement.

The vase? appears to have 18 spirals i.e. the spacing would be 20 degrees per flute. The flutes appear to "cover" 4 starting points for a total of 80 degrees of rotation per cutting path.
I am certain that I could build the spreadsheet and allow for all 18 flutes (assuming a valid profile toolpath) add a macro to export .csv to SB Editor with a header in place...
Does this make sense?
IF so, this spreadsheet could work as a template that you could fill in the blanks for # of flutes, depth of flute,rotation per flute etc. and export cutting files to any editor.
Gary

[porscheman]

Christian,

I don't want to hijack Jack's original thread, but I hope you'll let me ask one question. When you create the initial profiled shape of the newel post (cutting the spiral separately makes sense to me), why are you making hundreds of passes up and down the axis of the turning, with a slight rotation of the indexer (1 degree, if I remember correctly) between each pass? Wouldn't it be easier to just start the indexer turning at a certain number of degrees per second (maybe 60 or 90 degrees per second) and slowly make one pass down the axis of the turning, following the profiled path you have designed?

I have a Legacy mill and this latter approach is in line with how profiles are turned on that machine. Also, the big CNC profile cutters obviously spin the blank at high speeds while they move down the central axis. I'm interested why you take a different approach - does the indexer drive motor overheat if you keep it constantly spinning for many minutes?

Thanks in advance for any reply. Regards.

John

[myxpykalix]

John Ming-Christians file created with a pgm i forget the name of, makes the file to "carve" the piece instead of "turning" the piece. I too have a Legacy and i'm more familiar with a "turning" toolpath to create something like he designed. I suppose in the longrun what difference does it make whether it is carved or turned except that any wizard or simple file would not be able to figure a carving pattern where it could a turning pattern.
The problem with christians approach is that it was created with (I think) an expensive pgm. I am trying to figure out simple wizards that don't take a genius to make work.
I really like his design of newel post it's real nice. But if you break it down it is basically a 3d file but round. If you were making say a 3d blanket chest lid, a flat file on the table the Z is making its topographical moves are doing the same as christians file, except turning the indexer instead of moving the Y.
I'm just trying to incorporate the same Z moves to "carve the blank using a partwizard profile" to be able to make it move the Z to incorporate the spirals on the surface.
And please jump in with anything don't be afraid of hijacking a thread because these posts get a fair amount of discussion (more than they have in a long time) and are helping me understand a lot.

[cmagro]

John,

It's just a matter of preference based on the experience I've had in the past few years with the indexer.

The indexer's rotation speed is not to be compared to a lathe (indexer is very slow). You cannot just spin the indexer and follow a path along the x-axis (Jack just asked this)...actually you CAN as long as you only have point A and point B. If your path requires more than two points you have to work it as A-B then B-C then C-D etc.

Depending on your ramping values you'd watch the indexer turn and stop...turn and stop...ramp up...ramp down. etc.

Going along the x-axis lets you move at much faster speeds using more of a carving method (like Cut3d) while the indexer (which becomes the acting Y-axis) rotates a little at a time.

My program (oh yeah..Jack...I just named it...it is called "Christian's Indexer Program" and it cost me about four nights staying up late) also has the code required to "scan" a FLAT 3d file and carve it in the round. I will be needing this soon but for now I've just been much too busy to program the interactive portion. It works just like my original program except instead of just one path it extracts all of the paths that take up the circumference of the object. The same 3D file can be used for any diameter and the resolution is fully adjustable to whatever bit will be used.

Final note....my opinion....the indexer should be used for the fancy stuff (i.e. spirals, carvings in the round etc.). The first reason I use it for my standard symmetrical turnings is because while it's working I'm working on something else. Any decent standard lathe with a duplicator can take care of the simple turnings. The second reason is my ability to quickly program what I need....if I could not do that I don't think I could use the indexer for making my parts.

And Gary.....yes...just what you said.

Christian

[myxpykalix]

Christian,
Is this "Christian's Indexer Program" going to be available for purchase? I'd love to see something you make with it when you get it all together. If it's not a secret i'd like to hear more about it. I have been working on trying to make an application to try to combine cutting a shape then spiraling according to that shape as in the picture above.

[cmagro]

Hey Jack,

There is a HUGE difference between developing software for yourself and for the public.....usually when you develop software for yourself you end up going into the code many times to fine tune stuff (or debug stuff).

I'd be more than happy to keep you posted on it and possibly let you beta test some stuff just because you would seem to like it....but my programs link directly with AutoCAD and actually take control of it to do my bidding so you'd have to be proficient with that.

In any case I plan to post stuff as I move along with it.

Christian

[myxpykalix]

definitely keep me in mind for betatesting and absolutely post pictures and progress. I'd enjoy picking your brain (not your nose,lol)and some of your posts have absolutlely taught me some things that helped me develop my spiral wizard.

[dana_swift]

Christian- I heartily agree with the comment about the difference between writing software for myself and for general sale. I have something like 50 commercial titles out, probably another 40-50 private release applications for the private use of one company or another, and zillions of quick hacks.

Occasionally I read posts where I have a written a program that does exactly what the poster is asking for, but its hardwired to fix my needs at the moment. Several times I have been tempted to share my detailed solution, but I have no time for tech support to explain how it works and how to use it and what somebody might be doing wrong, etc.

I am curious about your toolpath algorithm for carving the X axis while advancing A between passes of X. Do you do a cartesian to R-Theta conversion of all the surface coordinates? (An approach I have been toying around with in my head.)

Its interesting that when I first got my bot, I used the commercial software that came with it and got quick results. But as time goes by I do about 90% of my toolpaths from my own software.

Jack- if you have any interest in writing software there are people out here like Christian and myself who have gone down that path. Personally I am happy to give occasional pointers to anybody wanting to learn. The rewards are really incredible, as my Bot driving software is just one example of. This bowl turning problem would quickly turn into results that no commercial software can duplicate because you are operating with only the constraints of geometry, physics, and your own coding abilities.

One of the things I like about owning a Bot is I can make almost anything I can imagine. Writing my own toolpath generators has really helped that process.

Good luck to all-

D

[myxpykalix]

Dana,
I think you pretty much boiled the problem done with this statement "you are operating with only the constraints of geometry, physics, and your own coding abilities".

The latter being the weak link in the equation for me. Picture a blind man walking in the woods,... pretty soon he's going to run into something..i seem to have plenty knots on my head as it is.

You should consider maybe selling some of your software with the understanding that there is no tech support. If the price were right and it did what i wanted it to do, i'd be interested, i can figure things out.

I have to say, these posts on the indexer seem to generate plenty of discussion. Maybe shopbot needs to have a section devoted to addons where we can keep these posts and discussions together.

[cmagro]

Dana,

I know what you mean about reading posts and thinking how quickly you could write a custom program to get the job done...if I did not have bills to pay I'd love to do that...very satisfying.

Your comment:
Do you do a cartesian to R-Theta conversion of all the surface coordinates? (An approach I have been toying around with in my head.)

Uhhh....actually I convert the flux capacitor to uhhh...give off a temporal resinance thereby increasing the thermal ambience and producing a carving.....yeah....just like that

I'm just a simple person here (and a trekki) so all I got from your comment was that some cardasian was attacking the surface of a planet with theta radiation.

Actually I take a 3-D mesh file (creating in either AutoCAD or 3D Studio MAX - which has incredible modeling) and my program scans it.

It begins with a point...call it 0,0 and move across the mesh file storing the "X" and "Z" points in a selection set. Each pass is simply a selection set of points. Files can be carved flat or round of course.

There is absolutely nothing complicated about how this program works...only that is works very well.

I actually used to do this manually...zooming into my drawing..getting the xyz info and writing the code myself. VERY tedious but again works great.

I'd like to say it's more that that (that would make me look smarter I think?) but that's about it.

It looks like the way you work (i.e. making most of your toolpaths) is exactly how I work and also for me the main reason I chose Shopbot...I can make anything with no software constraints.

It's a router that moves X-Y-Z (and B)...it's nothing more than that and it doesn't need to be...we can take it from there.

And Jack..I have to say that being a blind man walking in the woods....you seem to have no problem with running into trees....you just keep walking and moving...very admirable. Keep that attitude and I'll always be willing to help out when I can.

Christian

[dana_swift]

Christian-

Polar Coordinates (R-Theta) describe the same point as XYZ (Cartesian) coordinates as "BYZ" in our shopbot case. It gives the angle needed on the indexer to reach any point on your mesh.

I presume your indexer axis is in the Y shopbot axis.. so the X and Z coordinates need to turn into Angle (B) and radius (Z) coordinates. The only problem is polar coordinates use the center of the rotation axis as zero, and that is real difficult to put the zzero plate on.

Start with the conversion of X and Z to the indexer angle Theta and Radius:

Theta = atan2(Zmesh, Xmesh)
Radius = sqrt(Zmesh * Zmesh + Xmesh * Xmesh)

That converts the X and Z to R-Theata so one final step is to convert it to cut depth instead of radius:

CutDepth = MaterialTotalThickness/2 - Radius

Now to output these new coordinates to the bot:

M5,,Ymesh,-CutDepth,,Theta*180/pi

That last conversion converts the rotation angle in radians into degrees for the indexer.

Iterate those formulas in a loop and generate your rotated toolpath-

Christian, if you are interested in working with STL files in addition to meshes, I have written a file reader for them. The difficulty with STL files is everything is a vector, so you have to "think vectors" in order to find out where a tool will touch the surface the file describes. I don't mind sharing the general STL reader source code in case you would like to mess with it. STL files can be "solid", as it is a mesh of triangles in space. I also have worked from (and generated) autocad meshes.

Jack, feel free to try the conversions! Yes there will be trees in the way, but after a short while you learn where they are.. everybody hated high school math (especially me), but here it is in real life. I learned it because I needed it, and it has proven to be a great tool all by itself. Combine it with the shopbot and its like having a bulldozer! Go where you wanna go-

D

[rcnewcomb]

quote:The only problem is polar coordinates use the center of the rotation axis as zero, and that is real difficult to put the zzero plate on.

But unless you move your indexer that point will always be the same, so you can just define a custom cut to set origin and Z zero -- no need to pull out the zzero plate.

[cmagro]

I hear the math and can visualize it but I must say I've always been more like the small town farmer (actually surfer) that invents a high tech piece of engineering not even knowing how much calculus and physics he demonstrated or what it means.

Maybe it's because of my proficiency with AutoCAD and accessing objects in their code form but most of my programs do not deal with formulas...I find that it limits how easily a program can be modified (hard to explain that one).

I've done things visually for so long and manipulating coordinates in space instead of formulas that mathematical wording has become lost. Thanks for that refresher coarse...like a brain freeze.

Once I get to a really good point with the indexer program I would love to have you take a look at it along with the code...it's written in Visual Basic and creates an AutoCAD object to acquire / modify drawing information. If you have AutoCAD you'd really like the simplicity of it all.

Christian

[bill.young]

Hi guys,

There are some great points and ideas being made in this thread, showing that there are lots of ways to skin the cat. The Indexer Virtual Tool was written to get people started with their Indexer, without having to have any software other than what ShopBot supplies, but is just a starting point for using your Indexer. A lot of neat work (like the spirals that John is trying to do) can be done by just modifying existing part files in a Spreadsheet, or using some of the free Programming tools available...all they need to be able to do is read a text file, do some simple math, and write a new text file...QBasic that came with DOS is what many of us used in the beginning! Sharing ideas on different ways to create all kinds of files is the way that we'll all get more out of our ShopBots!

But since you brought it up, let me make one more quick pitch for zeroing at the center of rotation for MOST of the Indexer work that ShopBotters do, and then I promise I'll let it drop!

*) It's consistent and accurate. The center of turning should never change in relation to the outside of the headstock or top of the Indexer Motor, so if you setup a zeroing system one time as Randall suggests, you'll never have to mess with it again.

*) You don't have to worry about having perfectly sized and centered banks to create accurately sized parts. With an properly setup tool, even if your blank is chucked offcenter you can specify a diameter and it will end up that size every time.

*) Once again even of your blanks aren't perfectly centered and sized, you won't have to measure and re-zero each blank if you're cutting multiple parts...they will all be the same.


Bill

[myxpykalix]

Bill,
While i think you are right about 99.9% of the time for this particular option, at least for me measuring from the center is not the way to go.

Normally you would have to measure diameter, divde by 2 for radius. Then decide how deep you want your cut and divide that by 2. figure that out then input those parameters. If you are not dealing with an even number sometimes it gets confusing.

I make my spirals in an average of 2 minutes (shorter than it would take to do the math, at least for me!)
With this wizard, i zero to the surface, tell it how long i want it and how deep (usually the depth of profile of bit) and the file is made and i'm ready to go. So it is more a matter of convience for me to do it this way. This is the way we do it manually on the Legacy so i felt it should work for the shopbot.

Now for some type of 3d carved file that is a different matter. It definitely would need center as Zzero.
And i'm still "ponderin" how to spiral on a curved surface, the subject of the thread and visualizing you explaination above it sounds similar to Christians way he carves profiles (the part about creating the shape to begin with).

So lets say you now have the vase shape carved out.
Where i'm stuck is basically taking that shape to cut the Z moves for the spiral, combining them with the B moves to created the "swirl".

Another point i'm ponderin' is how is best to measure an irregular surface for reference within a file to tell it how to cut the spirals.

What i mean by that is, referencing the picture at the beginning of the thread, lets say it started as a 7" wide blank.
After carving the shape of the rough vase out it is 6" wide at its widest point and 4" wide at the opening of the vase.
The sbp file that was created for the profile controlled the depth of cut to create the vase shape.

But now i have to use that same profile to cut the spirals along the surface of the vase. With my wizard i have to use the surface to zero from.
On an odd shape (like the mouth of the vase) would be hard to zero to.

However I think it would be harder to zreo from center and find the correct depth because you now have to take that profile you created and and move it to a lower "plane" because the surface has changed via the carving.

Or am I just overthinking this? (which i have a tendency to do).
Before i spend a lot of time trying to do something I have to be able to visualize what i'm trying to do first.
Am I on the right track?

[Gary Campbell]

Jack...
If you had zeroed at the center, wouldnt the Z height from the profile cut tell you the dimension of the bowl at any point on the cut path?

To carve your spiral, you tell the software to be a consistant number below that point. At the same time, you need to mathmetically determine the amount of rotation. This can be done easily with a spreadsheet as I noted above. Do you have a spreadsheet? If so, let me know what it is, I will build a template that you can use by filling in the blanks for your spirals. I will also need the cut file for the profile to get the Z heights. You can also add multiple passes if you like.
Gary

[bill.young]

Hi Gary,

Would the spreadsheet in Google Docs be able to do it?

Bill

[Gary Campbell]

Bill...
I am sure that if approached correctly, it would work. The conversion from Excel 2007 to 2003 and then to GoogleDocs lost some of the conditional formating, all of the logical and all of the drop down list boxes.

I am not sure of the formula formatting (on my part) in GoogleDocs as I prefer to fuel the Micro$oft engine with annual upgrades to their latest and greatest. (LOL)

When Jack sends a cut profile, I will enter it all in an older version. I will need the logical (IF) so that rotation in the CW/CCW can be accomplished. Hopefully it will all transfer over to one of the open source products for those that are M$ challenged!
Gary

[Gary Campbell]

Bill...
I was able to make a conversion spreadsheet in the spreadsheet link you sent me. I entered X & Y coordinates from a bogus toolpath and it was able to generate a 2 path cut for a spiral similar to Jacks bowl above. Not bad for a free program! Thanks for the link.
Gary

[myxpykalix]

Gary,
Sadly I am not versed in excel or spreadsheet programs so i'm not sure what to do at this point.
I can create a cut profile in a sbp or dxf if that will help but if the result is some type of spreadsheet file that i need to implement then its...WOOSH! (thats the sound of it "going over my head")
I do greatly appreciate your participation to the discussion, I understand alot of what you are trying to do "conceptually" but not "implementationally" (is that a word?)

[Gary Campbell]

Jack...
IF you want to do multiple level cutting on an indexer profile, you are going to have to take the time and learn a program that can manipulate the data. Spreadsheets are not that hard. (compared to CAD) I have never seen an indexer and have probably learned all I know from this thread. But I was able to take a profile toolpath in X & Y and in under 20 minutes flip it to X & Z (or Y & Z if needed) and then use a formula to generate toolpaths for the spirals.

I would need a little more info on the exact syntax of the indexer's positive & negative position coordinates. But its close.

No concept here, you just open the sheet, fill in the degrees of rotation for the spiral and spacing and start to copy & paste into an editor.

Sorry, I cant explain this better, but I dont make a good teacher. Must be part of... "Those who can, do. Those who cant, teach" Keep at it, if you spend the time, it will come.
Gary

[myxpykalix]

Gary, I expected the next quote to be "Do, or do not...there is no try" (Yoda). lol. I guess in these spreadsheets your columns have to be labeled for specific functions like "rotation",
"Z height",ect. and i'm not exactly sure where to start. However I can probably find instructions in the form of "Excel for dummies" to maybe give me a starting and basic understanding.

If you have this spreadsheet for the profile/spiral you talked about above and could send me, one of the ways i learn is to take that example then start changing parameters to see what difference it makes on the material.

For example by changing the spacing from 20 degrees to 40 degrees in the rotation column that gives me "this" result. And by cutting the various samples i see the difference. I have to learn by doing.
So I need a "baseline" to start from. Otherwise i'm just pissin in the wind.
I have a openoffice excel type program that can work with spreadsheets so i'll have to jump into figuring how to work with it.
Scott Cox works alot with spreadsheets and he tried to teach me some things (bless his heart), I think he got flustered with me not understanding but this was back when i first got my indexer. Not that i know that much more.

To (over)simplify things, using the spreadsheet is like using a wizard only you have to fill out more boxes and basically build your file manually and incrementally by virtue of the parameters you input.
THEN..
you take all those compiled parameters and have to make them into your cut file which now I am lost on how thats done....

Are any of you guys who read this or are contributing to this thread coming to the Troy, Va shopbot camp? If so i'd love to buy you dinner and pick your brain.
I kind of live by this..."I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand"

That was why I thought this would be a perfect opportunity for shopbot to bring a indexer and have a section on it at the camp.
To me this addon can make your shopbot 10 times more creative and I don't know why the don't support it and promote it more. Why with my Spiral wizard and an indexer you could do "all these various combo's" With this spiral.

If i took the time to set up a survey would all of you take the time to take the survey? I think it would be enlightening to me and shopbot and it can be anonymous if need be. It might be an incentive to see how many want to do rope spiraling, ect.or other processes on the indexer
Maybe i'll ask it in another thread so as not to lose focus here. Thanks all and keep this going!

[bill.young]

Hi John,

I'm guessing that you would be the only one at the Troy camp that has an Indexer, but since you have one that's already setup why don't you host an Indexer users group yourself? The Marshall Brothers had an Indexer camp in their shop in New Jersey during one of the regular New Jersey Camps...you could do the same thing in your shop. More Indexer owners might be interested in attending if they knew it was Indexer-specific.

Bill

[billp]

Jack,
As posted in a number of places previously there are “general Camps” where we cover a survey of many topics to try and maximize the limited time we have to meet, and then there are “specialty Camps”. The Camp at Troy, VA has been scheduled and planned in the general theme, and we barely have time to cover that material within the given time frame…
Camps have NEVER been meant as “training” sessions. They are a chance to for people to exchange ideas, and techniques, while seeing an overview of what others are doing with the machine. The reason we don’t have sessions on running the probe, or various software programs is that given the wide range of experience, and expertise of those attending we could easily wind up devoting hours to any one aspect of the process, at the expense of everything else going on. It would obviously take considerable time to set up the indexer,machinery, files, etc. while at the same time explaining each step to all in attendance, and having done this for a number of years I know from experience that it’s never a good idea to try something “new”on a host’s Shopbot during a Camp…
While I am sure the indexer is of great interest to You it hardly seems appropriate to steer any Camp to a single topic. And in this case since not many people (when compared to the Shopbot itself…) own, and operate an indexer it hardly seems fair to ask people at a Camp to stand around while a few people try to solve specific owner’s issues.
There is a precedent here; about 5 years ago there WAS a 4 hour “Indexer Camp” held in New Jersey, and about 5 people attended. This way it was self selecting, and if people had an interest they could go and get some information about the tool.
Since You have such an interest in this tool I’d suggest that You, or some other indexer owner hold a “User group” where you could do something similar. It would also allow you to run any schedule, topics, and format you chose.
The indexer is probably the most esoteric accessory tool in the Shopbot line, and obviously different than the Shopbot in it’s operation, SO there are not as many people who are as proficient with the tool as they are with the ‘Bot itself. This means your resources in terms of “teaching personnel” might be somewhat limited, but if you could determine a program that would benefit the entire community, and not just be a personal coaching session the idea might have merit. You’d have to identify the issues to cover, programs to be discussed, applications, and materials, etc. Maybe some of the Forum participants who have been working on their own “indexer programs” could aid this in some way as well.
I’m not saying that this isn’t a good idea, I’m just pointing out that a scheduled “Camp” isn’t the best venue.

[ed_lang]

John,

Any chance you would be willing to host the indexer part at your shop? Would you run it on Friday or Sunday the same weekend? Maybe even on Saturday so folks could either go there or to the general camp.

Sounds like a fantastic idea and since you already have a working indexer up and running......

[myxpykalix]

My suggestion wasn't meant to infringe on the camp time but be an addition to it. I felt like showing what this could do might be more of an incentive to buy a shopbot since i recall last year there were several there who had not purchased one yet.

The idea of an indexer camp is a great idea, im glad i thought of it Ed. However I am by no means an expert and it would be tough for me to try to teach on this since i am still a novice.
Maybe the first step is a informal poll or survey to see how much interest there is out there. If there is interest I would be more thsn willing to set something up. Darn, does this mean i have to clean the shop?

[Gary Campbell]

Jack...
I am afraid that sending the file I have at this time would do more harm than good.

First off, until I can get with someone that can explain the rotation of the indexer in CW vs CCW my formulas may be off.

Second... all of the column require real data to calculate the next, etc. That was why I was looking at getting your profile cut file.

Third.. the only way that this coordiate file can be generated is with a zero at the centerline of the axis and it seems you are trying to not take this approach.

Your open office spreadsheet will work as well as any. Start by learning to copy and paste a 50 line cut file into different columns so that you can see how to manipulate the columns of X, Y, Z coordiates into X, Z and B. Once you have that down, my stuff will do you some good. Until then you dont need to see lines like "=($K$3-(((C14-$C$16))/$I$9)*$G$3)" and "=IF(C16<$D$9,"NA",IF(C16>$G$9,"NA",M16))"
Gary

[billp]

Jack,
"I felt like showing what this could do might be more of an incentive to buy a shopbot(sic)since i recall last year there were several there who had not purchased one yet. "

Without beating this to death ( if that hasn't happened already...) Camps have never been seen as "sales events" either. You'll NEVER see anyone writing up orders, etc. at a Camp because early on we ( Bill Y. and myself) decided to keep some separation between the sales part, and the USER part. If people saw these events as sales pitches it might even inhibit them from attending.....
Many (if not most) Camp attendees learn about the events through this Forum, so the "Show and Tell" aspect of photos will easily cover the possibility of this tool. In fact it offers a wider range of possibilities since many people posting their pictures are scattered all around the globe, and unable to attend each Camp we hold.
Why take extra steps? Pick a date, declare it as the "Indexer Camp"and then see how many people plan to attend.....That will show you if there's interest!
If people can't make one in Virginia they can hold one wherever they live ( Dirk and Pat in Idaho, etc.) We think the "User group" concept is much more flexible than a Camp for these purposes because it allows everyone input on a local level, as well as providing local support afterwards...

[myxpykalix]

My thought was to get "like minded" people with this interest together, not necessarily to have it sponsored by or attended by shopbot (unless they had an interest). Mainly for a selfish reason, to learn from them, the more advanced guys, than to try to teach what I know.
Ed's idea of having it the day before or after or evening after camp would make more sense. Even i wouldn't travel for for just indexer stuff with the price of gas.
So I might start with an informal poll to see interest, if not much then i'll not bother...

[myxpykalix]

Gary,
I agree, it looks Greek to me...or is that GEEK?

[ed_lang]

John,
Sounds like you will "host" the indexer part of the camp at your shop this year. No, you do not need to clean up. Just get everyone to take something home with them when they leave! I see this as a chance for you to video your indexer as well. Get the folks who have helped you so far together and ask them what all can be put together for a here is what I know about the indexer. You can ask for folks who will attend to email you so you will know how many to expect.

Looking forward to this indexer session.

[myxpykalix]

I'll work on some general ideas tonite. Would those who are attending the Troy, va. camp want me to email them? I'd like to get an idea if anyone is interested before i put work into it.

[ed_lang]

John,
Pick a date and post it in the camp section of this forum. Then have folks email you directly. You will know who would like to be there. Maybe not run it at the same time as my camp, but some weekend that is good for a number of folks.

[myxpykalix]

It would make more sense to run it either the day before or after your camp since people will be making the trip anyway. I wouldn't want it to interfere with yours because I want to be there anyway. Maybe the simplest thing to do is ask at the conclusion of your camp if anyone wants to come over that seems the easiest. That is unless you plan on taking all of us out to dinner afterwards Ed (hint, hint).
Well I guess you will treating us to lunch so someone else will have to pay for dinner huh?
BTW whats on the menu?
door prizes?