Porter cable 3.25 VS Columbo Spindle

[Guest Question (Unregistered Guest)]

What are the major difference between the Porter cable 3.25 router vs. the Columbo Spindle 5 hp options?

I like the fact that the 3.25 Porter Cable runs on 110, but will it limit us if we are only cutting soft woods and metals, copper, etc.

[ron brown]

The Porter-Cable only makes 3.25HP in dreams written by animation studios. It is a router made to be run by hand and will cut all the things one can route by hand. This includes any wood I have seen or touched, aluminum and many other materials. It can be and is mounted on CNC machines and does a respectable job. The brushes wear out in ~200 hours and bearings in ~600 hours I have been told. Collets are available in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" in the United States.

Spindles are real tools capable of running continusly. They have no brushes, develop real power and collets can be had in almost any size one cares to use. The speed range is larger also.

Ron

[fleinbach]

Why compare 3.25hp Porter Cable to a 5HP spindle? Why not a 3HP spindle?

As Ron summed it up fairly well differant materials need varying speeds. The Porter Cable has only 4 speeds I believe. You can run a Columbo spindle from 1 to 27,000 RPM. Yes It will run even as slow as 1 RPM. This means you can obtain any speed nessacary.

[gerald_d]

Frank, spindles running at lower speeds are not immune to a loss of power. Run any electric motor too slow and there is a greater risk of stalling, followed quickly by the leakage of smoke.

[fleinbach]

Gerald

I never tried actualy cutting below 8,000 RPM but I thought it was quite interesting when I punched in 1 rpm and it actualy turned at that speed.

[Brady Watson]

I haven't run my spindle slower than 2500 RPM...and Gerald is correct about power loss at lower RPM ~ not that I encountered it. Generally I drill holes at 5500 RPM and profile at no lower than 9,000. Colombo states that the RS90 (5HP with electric cooling fan) will maintain RPM between 12,000 and 18,000 RPM and use all of the power available if necessary.

-Brady

[beacon14]

If it's turning at 1 rpm it isn't a spindle - it's a clock!

[guest (Unregistered Guest)]

thanks for the info. Was comparing the 3.25 hp Porter Cable to the 5 hp Columbo as they are the two options to choose from on a stock AlphaPRT as I saw on the pricelist page.

Anybody know the RPMs the 3.25 HP PorterCable can really get up to, and up to what application is would be applicable before you have to swith to 5 hp spindle option?

[ron brown]

Well Guest,

I only know the number printed on the can 10, 13,16, 19 and 21K. I will state it will "hunt" as load is increased and decreased. My PC would use between 400 and 1100W under loads with it seldom seeing over 1000W. This means the Router is about a an honest 3/4HP with 1-1/2HP peaks. One can fully load- or overload, a router with an early ShopBot.

Since you are giving us information in pieces, it is damn difficult to answer your questions. Something with the abilities of cutting speed that an Alpha has can use a spindle. However, if money is tight, one could start with a router and put a spindle on later, cursing their decision to not get a spindle in the first place, loosing production time and being generally a pain in their own well-being. The options are your own.

Ron

[mikejohn]

Ron,
If you keep on being rude about routers I'll tell Gerald!!

[gerald_d]

[ron brown]

Trying to be factual Mike... I know each time a machine of mine goes down I am not a happy camper. Routers are great for intermittent use. I run one.

A spindle is a completly different tool.

Ron

[mikejohn]

Ron
I agree to a point.
I have one router that has always given me a problem.
I have two very small ones that I use on my copy carver that have never missed a beat.
Our shy, nameless guest doesn't really say what he's doing, but 'metal' does suggest he might need a spindle.
As was clearly reasoned in that recent spindle thread, it is a case of the right tool for the right job.
and I only whispered, so was suprised Gerald heard

[gerald_d]

Ron, our bit size is seldom bigger than the collet diameter and we have never been near to overloading or burning out either our Metabo or Makita routers. The Metabo has had 4 bearing changes and one brush change in 4.5 years. The Makita has had no maintenance in 9 months.

We don't do edge-profiling with "ogee"(?) bits. When we surface the table we use a 1" max bit.

Our 1/2" collet Makita (power equivalent of the PC 3.25HP) runs continuously for 8 hours a day with a 3/8" bit going through 5/8" MDF (one pass) at 2" per second. The baby Metabo with the 1/4" collet would cut the same 5/8" MDF with a 1/4" bit in two passes at 1.5" per sec.

Know your tools and their limitations - never blame them for anything.

[guest (Unregistered Guest)]

Wow. Thanks for all the interest.
To elaborate, we are looking to machine foam (large quanity flotation marine water craft) so that is why I thought we could get away with the router. Speed is an important factor were looking for. As far as the dies we were looking to do the die and sign business as well.

Given that. Is Spindle still recommended. We don't have 220 set up at the shop yet. So Spindle will require setting up the 220 single phase.

[wesday]

You can also get the spindle in 3 hp single phase 220 from ShopBot. It is also about a zillion times quiter than a Porter Cable. I currently run both on an Alpha.

[guest (Unregistered Guest)]

What is a reasonable price for the 3hp spindle? Is getting it directly from ShopBot the way to go if you are upgrading from a PC router?

[robert_cheal]

For anyone who may be interested I am posting a recent information that I received
from a company than offers spindles. Last month someone listed this web site on this forum.

www.ekstromcarlson.com (http://www.ekstromcarlson.com)

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kreissler [mailto:sales@drautochuck.com (mailto:sales@drautochuck.com)]
Subject: RE: Request for information about a "Motorpack"
Thank you for your inquiry. Pricing is below for the different Motorpacks. I have also attached Autocad files in the event you have the capability to open these files. The SM-C73 and SM-C78 motors are about 82-83 dBa at 3 feet.

Motorpack 4
Model SM-C73 Spindle Motor, 2.68 HP at 18000 RPM, 220 Volts, 8.8 Amps

[scott_smith]

Any one have experience with the above mentioned Fimec spindle? Looks like the smaller one is half the price of the 3HP Colombo from Shopbot.

[elcruisr]

I looked them over at the last IWF and have since talked with the dealer twice. We're still running the Columbo 5 hp (well, three of them actually) but I'd like to talk to someone running a Fimec as well! They are a little louder due to being shaft fan cooled and there is a question about running at lower RPMs for an extended time that I'd like answered. The dealer says it's OK but I'd like to hear that from the guy in the field...

Eric

[gerald_d]

Fimec's own spindle site (http://www.fimec.it/dettagli/ing/detelettromanding.htm). It looks like their size numbers are actually from the rotor diameters - a reasonable indication of torque. For equivalent torque (power), a Colombo and a Fimec should have similar diameter rotors. On the cooling issue, an aluminium housing can be cooled better than an iron housing - alu conducts heat better, and cooling fins can be extruded finer. However, alu will vibrate more because of more flexibility and lower mass - more noise and tool marks.

[gerald_d]

Stupid me! Those numbers cannot be the rotor diameters because they still have to fit the field coils in those housings.

[gerald_d]

Started the 5HP Fimec spindle today. The shaft mounted fan does get LOUD. (From about 15000rpm up) Will ask the factory for a suggestion to reduce noise. How does the Colombo fan work?

(The Fimec spec. says not to run it under 7000rpm, and I am sure this has to do with its fan)

[richards]

Hi Gerald,

The Colombo RS73-3hp spindle that I have has a cooling fan that is not connected to the shaft, making it independent of the spindle's speed. Colombo has another series of spindles, the RV series, that have shaft mounted fans. Both the RS series and the RV series have identical 60% duty cycle ratings.

[gerald_d]

Thanks Mike. Fimec have already acknowledged my query and I expect that they will also offer the independent fan. Does your Colombo also have a thermistor buried in the windings that can sense the internal temp.? I havn't connected my thermistor to anything yet, but it is useful to know that it is there already - maybe use it to control the independent fan one day......

[richards]

Gerald,
I don't know anything about a thermistor in the Colombo. As fas as I can tell, the fan is constant speed, but I really haven't paid any attention to it except to verify that it is running every time I turn on the spindle. To check the spindle's temperature, I use a cheap infared thermometer (less than $50 from the local Checker, which is an auto parts retailer). Using 13,000 RPM as my preferred speed, heat has not been a problem. At that RPM, and given the fact that most of my parts have relatively short straight line segments, the actual average feed speed is quite a bit less than the dialed-in 6-ips. So rather than run things near the high end, I just coast along. The overall part cutting time at the lower RPM and feed speed is almost identical to raising RPM and feed speed to the maximum.

[harold_weber]

Gerald, having no knowledge of the Fimec spindle I may be wrong but I think the thermister you speak of may be intended to be wired into your VFD and the VFD will shut down your spindle for you if the spindle temperature gets too high. This is covered in my VFD book in a section called "Thermistor Thermal Protection"

I do have a thermistor in a Siemens 3-phase induction motor and it is used as I described above.

Regarding your 7000 rpm low speed limit, you may be able to program your VFD to reduce the spindle current (and consequently the torque) at lower speeds. This may keep your spindle from overheating at low speeds when the fan is not running very fast.

Depending upon how the spindle shaft was dynamically balanced at the factory, you may need to get the unit re-balanced if you pull off the shaft-mounted fan and replace it with an electric fan.........

[Brady Watson]

Gerald,
Yes Colombos have thermister protection built in. I have run some pretty long and tough runs and it has never kicked off because of overheating. I have the RS-series 5HP one that has the electric fan. It is constant speed regardless of RPM. I believe the Perskes and earlier RV-series Colombos use a shaft-mounted fan that DOES need to be taken into consideration for low RPM cooling.

-Brady

[gerald_d]

Thanks for the info guys. It should be a relatively simple matter to remove my shaft-mounted fan and fit an independent fan if the noise gets too much. (Something that can also be done with Porter-Cables surely?)

The PDSColombo site lists both the RS and RV series as current with noise of 74dBA versus 80dBA. A doubling of sound volume is 3dBA, thus the Colombo RV makes 4 times as much noise as the Colombo RS model. Do not automatically assume that all spindles are quiet - like I did

[richards]

Even though the Colombo 3hp spindle is relatively quiet, especially when compared with the PC 7518, when it is cutting baltic birch ply full depth, there is significant cutting noise.

[Eddie S (Unregistered Guest)]

Now wait just a minute.

Did anyone mention operating cost? Porter Cable initial $200-300 range vs $2000-3000 for HF spindle? Some say here Porter Cable brushes and bearings as major pain to replace. No one said how much it cost them to service failed HF spindle?. No one mention that service shops consided smaller spindles "throwaways" not wanting to bother with replacing lower priced bearings and components. Watch out.

[richards]

Eddie,

If you have used both the PC 7518 and a Colombo spindle, you'll know just how much better everything is with a spindle.

Cost is relative. Most of my cuts are at least 2x faster with a spindle. Some of that speed difference is being able to run at a faster feed rate and part of that speed difference is being able to take a deeper cut with a spindle.

Adding a $0.50 charge per hour for spindle maintainence is minor when compared to the $80 to $100 per hour material cost for sheet materials that are cut.

Not everyone needs a spindle, but I'm certainly happy with mine. Going back to a PC would be cruel and unusual punishment.

[marshawk]

Just my $0.02...

We kick around the idea of going to a spindle every now and then. We always come back to the fact that we can buy a lot of routers for the cost of one spindle. We do all of the maintenance on our routers so the cost is relatively minimal.

Does anyone use spindles to make 3D cuts? My biggest concern is how fast can the spindle move without breaking one of the 1/4" tapered ball noses that we use? Does anyone use the tool changer? That would help with automating roughing passes.

The other problem is the software. Does anyone use the spindle with the DOS software? We can't use the windows software with most of our files. Some of our toolpaths are just too big for the Windows software to handle.

Cheers!

Chip

[Brady Watson]

Chip,
I use my 5HP spindle to cut 3D all the time. It's quiet...and there is less tendency to break small bits because there is no run-out to contend with. I think that a new PC has .008" runout to begin with. It gets worse with time.

No problem running DOS. I started out running 2.39 with the spindle. You don't need anything hooked up to the computer that is any different than the PC router is hooked up now.

Just think of what the 25:1 did for you....the spindle really is that much better...and you will be cutting faster and cleaner than you are now with a wider range of RPM to play with.

-Brady

[marshawk]

Thanks Brady, now it's just a cost issue.

Chip

[gerald_d]

When I made those posts in November about the Fimec's noise, I was optimistic that Fimec could offer a quieter option. Alas, they didn't come up with anything at all. Last week they changed their website to say they now have independent fan spindles. But on querying this with them, it is discovered that they are still to be launched. I had an order for 2 more spindles pending with them, and tried to get the newer model, but they want to insist that I have to take the older models. I am now looking for a more co-operative supplier....

[myxpykalix]

Maybe i'm missing something here BUT...part of the discussion relating to noise levels of spindle vs router. whether you use a router or spindle those noises are lower than the noise produced by the bit cutting into the wood, so in that respect whats the difference? I called a PC repair center and was told to replace brushes and bearings would be around $75.00 so for the cost of one spindle i could buy 10 routers, now i don't know the difference in cut so i can't speak to that, but unless you are a full time shop I don't know if i could justify the cost. I COULD change my mind tomarrow though....

[scottcox]

I chose the spindle for two reasons.

First was sound. I couldn't stand the idea of a router screaming at me every time it was turned on, cutting or not. I'm glad I made this choice because I'm hard of hearing as it is. "What was that you say?"

And Jack, not all the cuts scream at you. A finishing pass in cypress is almost silent, but on a large relief it will take hours. Screaming router or NO screaming router? That was the question for me.

Second was horsepower and precision. I didn't like the idea of the runout on the PCs. I also didn't like the idea of a PC bogging down when I'm cutting something.

I'm not sure how to link to it so I'll repost Brady Watson's quote here.....

"Buy the right tool for the job.

8188
...or you'll wish that you did!"

8189
Right/Wrong by Brady Watson - 2005

I know it was a helluvalot more expensive, but I'm glad I did it.

Scott Cox

[gerald_d]

Those pics are totally gratuitous. We run a router as well as a spindle and we are a lot more relaxed with the router. A new operator in the shop has to cut his teeth on the router first before being allowed near the spindle. Cut qualities are identical. The noise is the biggest issue. With the router you can never hear yourself thinking - the noise from the fan in the router masks everything else. With the spindle you can hear what the cutter is really doing, and most times it isn't doing very much.

If I am really bored one day, I want to strip the fan out of a router and mount a separate fan on the back of it......

[scottcox]

Considering I've driven an F350 for the last 6 years, this comparison was somewhat influential to my decision.

I don't have experience with the routers so I can't honestly state the differences. Just what I've read here.

I am glad I bought my F350. My work would have crippled a lesser vehicle by now. Hopefully I can say that about my spindle 5 years down the road.

[joe]

One advantage in favor of a spindle: It can be ordered with a tool changer head w/o the mechanism. This eleminated wrenches, and screwing around with z zeroing.

The collet is easily removed, bit and all, with a twins and down pull. To my knowledge this is the only quick change out for bit that really works.

J.

[patricktoomey]

Joe, what brand of spindle do you have? I have the 5hp Colombo but desperately want a tool changer or at least a tool change ready spindle. I can't drop 16K on one at the moment but if I could sell mine and get a spindle with the changer head for now it could be a good option since at least I could easily pop new tools in and out.

[joe]

Pat,

I'm still using my old PRT and waiting delivery on the 5'X10' equiped with a 5hp Colombo spindle with the tool change collet.

Like you I'm moving tword the tool changer with a static tool holder. I probably should remind you, a quick change collet will take away approx. 2" in Z height. The standard practice is to mount the spindle up that distance.

I don't think you will have any trouble selling a Colombo. I've been told they are the Cadillac in the field.

Perhaps I could take a photo or two showing the the tool change process.

J.

[patricktoomey]

Joe, some pictures would be great. I'm getting ready to rebuild my table and upgrade to the 12" z so I can take the extra Z height into account while doing that. I'm assuming there's no way to add the tool change collet to my existing spindle, that would be too easy ;-) Are you buying the Colombo from ShopBot? The last time I talked with them I thought they said they only had some other brand for tool changers.

[joe]

Pat,

Although the Colombo is a bit more expensive, it seemed to me the way to go. Your right about a retro-fiting. They say it can't be done.

J