Nesting

[bstern]

Anybody know of software or even better an excel formula for nesting parts on a sheet.

I am able to take my cut list and do all cnc operations I need using excel. (thanks to Dirk Hazeleger's fantastic tutorial) Now I just need a way to nest my parts on a sheet. I am trying to use Cabinet Parts Pro for the nesting. Its only function is nesting and it would be much simpler to do it with all the toolpathing in excel.

[kirkkelsey]

Could you post a link, or where to look for this tutorial, as my Seach of the forum has not revealed it yet. Thanks.

[Brady Watson]

Bob,
I'm not aware of ANY software package or individual program that does nesting functions very well. I've since given up on all of them & nest parts manually in PW, ArtCAM or VCP. NOTHING is better than the human brain for nesting...

While Excel and other non-graphical means of generating files is efficient, you really need to be able to SEE what is going on visually. Not sure if you can get an AI, EPS or DXF from the programs that you have, but you can import your files into any CAD/CAM package and see your parts on the sheet.

Starting out...you'll search for nesting solutions, until you realize that you are infinitely smarter than the algorithm written to nest parts by a human programmer...

-B

[daski]

It's not often that I would even think of disagreeing with Brady, but I can assure you that my method is way faster than any human can do, and way more efficient. Typically I'm nesting 100 or so parts for a kitchen. the design and part sizes are done in E-Cabs, exported to Excel, a quick column or two added and exported to Cutlist Plus, nested and then exported as DXF files. Any holes or notches are then done in AutoCad. The files are then toolpathed in PW. Start to Finish, (Design to ready to cut file) for the kitchen of about 18 sheets is under 1 hour. The scraps left over are sometimes useable for kick. The cost of the upgraded Cutlist paid for itself in the first kitchen. A Bonus is the fact that it generates labels for you as well. Whetether you're in the game to make money or not, invest in it and finish the day early.

[bstern]

Looks like I will let Cabinet Parts Pro do the nesting for me. It seemed a bit of hassle to have to export from eCabs, import to CPP, nest then save, just to get the origins of the nested parts. Then I will just run my excel code generator using the origins imported back from CPP. It will work fine. I was just trying to polish my methods.

It should take less than 10mins per job.

Brady - Looks like CPP will let me tweak the nest by hand if I want.

Doing it by hand is out of the question as my spreadsheet will only generate shopbot code for each part with an origin of 0,0.
Not very graphical.

Thanks,
Bob

[Brady Watson]

Dave,
It's always OK to disagree if you are right about something...I'm still learning too, ya know!


I don't do much work with cabinet parts, so nesting square or rectangular parts is usually not encountered...It's the weird shapes (like cresents, stars, etc) all jumbled together that gives most nesting programs some trouble. I've found it so much more efficient to set everything up manually for the types of things that I cut out.

Bob,
That's a bummer that all you get is SBP and you can't tweak it otherwise.

Having no real interest in making cabinets for a living (actually NONE at all), I haven't kept up with what is available out there for those who do. What I don't get (as a former software developer) is, 'what's the problem?'...In other words, what is it about cabinets that is so difficult that someone hasn't developed something economical that does what you want it to??? Is it the pretty 3D rendering or what? Just to give you perspective, I personally think that whipping out some panels with dados, rabbets and 5mm holes is a piece of cake in PW, ArtCAM or VCPro. I guess I don't fully understand cabinetmaker's dilemma. Please enlighten me.

-B

[hyrum_r]

Brady,
Here's the thing as I see it at least with cabinets, at least as far as our shop is concerned (and no, I don't have a CNC yet.)

Anyway, an average kitchen is around 30 or so cabinets, and we make them to fit whatever the walls happen to be. There are many cabinets that we try to keep as standardized as possible, but every job will have differently sized cabinets to fit whatever the customer's needs are. Keeping track of which parts are simply shelves, which ones need dadoes and where, it would be insanely tedious, at least for me.

Doing parts by hand for a handful of cabinets isn't a problem, but here's a cutlist for just the 1/2 melamine on a kitchen I did recently. I'd go insane if we didn't have software for calculating cutlists.

Using this same kitchen as an example, it was about 50 cabinets, and used approx:
9 sheets of 3/4" MDF Oak
20 sheets 1/2" melamine,
6 sheets 3/4" melamine
13 sheets 1/4" melamine
5 sheets Baltic Birch

The main reason that all the cabinet packages are so expensive, though, is that everyone builds cabinets differently and it's next to impossible to create software that can accomodate the needs/wants of every cabinet builder.
cutlist example
cutlist.pdf (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/cutlist-22558.pdf) (11.1 k)

[hyrum_r]

Dave,
Your idea sounds like it just might be a winner for me. I use KCDw for designing and my own software for the cutlists (can't get KCDw's to work right, and mine works perfectly for me.) I'm sure I can easily get my software to export to excel which as you say can be imported into Cutlist Plus. I'll have to look into Cutlist Plus, as it may just be what I need. Thanks for the info as before now, I didn't realize it could export DXF's.

[daski]

I use KCDw for client presentation, ECabs for construction specifics, Cutlist plus for optimisation and PW for toolpathing.

[mrgadget]

I've been using ecabs for construction and presentation, and then exporting into Cutlist plus for nesting and labeling. I too just learned that cutlist plus exported dxf's. That's good to know. Thanks for the heads up on that Dave. I believe that will finish out the missing piece to the puzzle I needed once I get my bot. Seems like it's a bit of a chore to go thru all these programs to cut these cabinets, but what other choice do we cabinet makers have besides shelling out some serious cash that really could be put to good use other places??

[bcammack]

ProNest - http://www.mtc-limited.com/

Probably like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer, but it's what we use for our Flowjet water jet cutter when cutting stone slabs for countertops.

The autonest isn't bad, but I generally characterise using the software as "the world's slowest game of Tetris." Works well otherwise. The company's very responsive.

[hespj]

Or there's always online nesting:

http://www.e-nesting.com:2101/ecnc/home.htm

John

[oddcoach]

I found a optimizer program called sheet layout 8 http://www.sheetlayout.com/products.htm it takes in your cutlist as a comma separated values and spits out a layout in seconds. you can specify grain direction and spacing between parts. its less than $100
john

[oddcoach]

oops i just looked on their site and they have a new version out. It looks like i has the ability to handle irregular shapes and do some toolpathing now.

[bleeth]

Guy's: I'm a bit confused about the nesting from a spreadsheet routine. When I machine cabinet parts on the bot I do all of my machining at the same time. That includes, for all sides, line boring, hinge plate placement, and back dado. As soon as I get a horizontal borer in here I will be adding dowel holes to the sides as well. So, from the example spreadsheet of parts above, posted by Hyrum, it looks to me that all that is coming out is square parts needing to be machined otherwise. For automated nesting to have any true effectiveness I believe you must go from complete machine path, therefore optimizing the abilities of the cnc. In the "big box" plants such things are done with very expensive software like Alphacam or Microvellum for parts generation and add-on nesting software like Ardiss that will program the router for all operations, or output seperately to the saw that cuts and labels and the cnc that drills and bores and dados.
At this time, having just recently started using my bot for production casework, I've been setting up a library in PW of "common parts" with all penetrations included, and then manually nesting these and then ordering the different toolpath operations. It is cumbersome, but like some others have mentioned, I have yet to see a "small" program that is designed to build the way I do. At the moment, I'm doing all operations with a 1/4" bit so no toolchanging, and will experiment soon with a 5mm so I can implement complete 32mm system and eliminate the step of putting system dowels in the hinge mount holes.

So the question is, am I missing something in the spreadsheet to machining abilities of the nesting programs you are talking about or are you simply cutting out the parts and using other methods to complete them?

[andre]

I have been building cabinets for going on ten years and just purchase my prs alpha this spring. All I use is part wizard. The easiest thing for me is drawing and nesting cabinet parts. I cant see spending the thousands of dollars for software that does basicly the same thing, just with more flare and pretty pictures. I had a chance to play with lots of software, including cabinet vision and kcdw and found them to be alot of , well, software. I like designing the cabinet componets from scratch, that way I know its exactly what I want.
What could be simpler than drawing rectangles with shelf holes and dados? Nesting squares takes 2 minutes. Anyways just my 2 cents.
I am not a huge shop doing 1 kitchen a week, so maybe my opinion is misplaced with the bigger shops.