Can't Build Our Own Tables ???

[stargategfx]

I just got off the phone with SBT, I was inquiring about the differences between the PRT Alpha and the new PRS.
As we are about a week away from ordering our second machine, I needed to know if we had to make any design changes to the steel table we would be building if we ordered the PRS as opposed to the PRT.
I was told that the option of self-building a table is no longer offered, and all the new Bots are sold as a "system"
We have a full metal fabricating shop as well as mechanical and electrical engineers,
the option of building our own table was one of the features that first attracted us to Shopbot.
Now we will have to pay in shipping alone what it would cost us to build our own table, not to mention the cost of the table we must now purchase and the extra cost of shipping it and all the taxes and duties that will go with it.
All this has me re-thinking the purchase.
The new unit was to be a 60 x 120, to work alongside out 48 x 96 Alpha, I wonder now if maybe I should just sell my current Alpha and look for a used Thermwood or Cam-Tech.
Your thoughts?

[richards]

Boyd,
How about if we turned the question the other way? Do you think that Thermwood would sell a machine without a table?

After having visited a lot of other shops, I've seen a lot of different tables. Most are very well built, but some aren't. Since the quality of the cut depends on more than just the alignment of the rails, it seems reasonable, to me, that Shopbot would take full responsibility for the complete machine, not just a portion of it. If you'll look back over the last few months, several of us have been very outspoken about some of the problems with our machines. I believe that Ted is making a major effort to fix every one of those problems. If that costs a few hundred dollars more for shipping, that seems to be a reasonable cost.

I would guess, from reading the forum regularly, that a good share of the problems new users face are related to buying a 'bare bones' machine, and then finding that engineering the 'missing pieces' is harder than they thought it would be. I don't know about you, but I'm too far gone in life to enjoy buying a box of parts and then trying to figure out how to make it all work. (If anyone really thinks that building your own system is easy, you might want to email those of us who spend a good deal of time experimenting with home-grown electronics to find out just how much a do-it-yourself system really costs and how long it takes to work out the kinks.)

[stargategfx]

All valid points Mike, but its hardly a few hundred dollars difference.
Crating, $450., Shipping, $1235.,table $2545.
All in U.S dollars, not the Canadian Peso, which I will be paying with.
All I'm saying is that we are more than qualified to fabricate and assemble another table, it would be nice to have that option.
If I do go with the Shopbot, I will be spending at least an additional $2800. (thats $3250. Canadian) out of my own pocket.
Thats a fairly substantial increased cost from what I had planned on spending as recently as a couple of weeks ago.

[fleinbach]

Boyd,

I don't exactly know the price of the Cam-tech or Thermwood is but if my memory serves me correctly I have heard they cost some where in the $50,000 to $100,000 range. I may be wrong but if this is so then why would you want to spend tens of thousands more for one of them, rather then only $3,250.00 more then you thought you would be spending for the Shopbot?

Edited

By the way when I first looked into purcasing a Shopbot it was because I had a friend who had one of the early versions and he only paid $3,800.00 new. When I called them and found out the price had increased to $6,800.00 I almost decided I didn't want to pay that much. But once I made the decision, I was so impressed with what I could do, I sold it 1 year later and purchased a Prtalpha for over twice that. Since then I have added the indexer and vaccum and have nearly $20,000.00 invested. So I now have more then 5 times more invested then I originaly wanted to spend and I don't regret it one bit.

But you do have a point, it would be nice to still have the option to build the table yourself as I also built mine. But If I had the decision to make I would bite the bullet and make the purchase.

[stargategfx]

Frank, I'm still getting over sticker shock and weighing my options.
The funds I had set aside for the new 'Bot, combined with the sale of my current Alpha would put me within reach of a used industrial machine.
I'm wondering if the speed, accuracy along with the option of a tool changer of a used Thermwood etc. would offset the production ability gained by adding a second Shopbot.
The arguement boils down to two Shopbots vs. one heavy duty machine.
Any input you guys have would be appreciated.

[beacon14]

A little clarification please.... I understand the new PRS ("Personal Robotic System") will be sold as a complete package with the table, but I have not seen anything which leads me to believe that the PRT Alpha options have changed. The web site still states ShopBot CNC tools are priced without Tables because some of our customers, for convenience, economy, or special application needs choose to build their own. Plans for building tables are available from the link below.

Which is it? All new machines come with tables or are the PRT's still offered with or without?

[stargategfx]

David, unless I grossly misunderstood Jamie at SB, the PRS is replacing the PRT and the option for building your own table is no longer offered.
This was a very close call for me as I was about to give our metal shop the green light to build my new table.

[richards]

For the die-hard do-it-yourselfers, Shopbot once sold a kit that included all of the electronics and stepper motors - perhaps they still do. You would have to build all of the mechanical parts of the machine yourself. For most of us, designing and building an entire machine is a bit much, but given enough time, it would be possible for anyone that has the facilities to build a steel table.

Please note: I'm not recommending that anyone build an entire machine, but if the (included) table is a deal breaker, get yourself a bunch of aluminum extrusion catalogs, the Bishop-Wisecarver catalog, and browse the Internet to get ideas. When I did that, I gained a greater appreciation for the machines that Shopbot sells.

[patricktoomey]

I would like to eliminate the table completely and mount the rails directly on some concrete piers. I have an addition going onto my shop now to make room for my new Weeke CNC machine. I will have to move the bot into the new section of the shop and put the Weeke where the bot is now. During that move I intend to ditch the table and try the concrete pier idea. The main reason for this is that I've yet to find a way to brace the steel table enough to stop the shakes I'm getting now.

That kind of design flexibility is great with the bot and I'm a little surprised that they would stop offering the table as an optional item. The only think I can think is that it has to do with the new rails? But if that were the case I don't know how they could offer an upgrade package for the PRT's since we would be bolting the parts on an existing table anyway. Very interesting, I'll be interested to see how it turns out.

One last tidbit though, speaking of used big-iron machines. I think you may get sticker shock at the price of a used Thermwood or equivalent machine. My used (1995) Weeke comes as part of another deal but is valued at $80,000 and that's with one of the 2 spindles burned out. With or without the table, you're not going to get a big machine used in the same price range unless there is something seriously wrong with it. Also, look at the total cost of ownership, those big machines can't be fixed with someone else's parts. If a piece breaks, you're buying it from the manufacturer at a scary cost and you will likely need a factory rep to install it for you. It's a totally different world as I'm already discovering, a month before my machine even gets here.

[David Iannone]

We bought our shopbot almost 5 years ago. My dad came across the website and told me about it. I said "there is no way for the price that machine can do what we need" I had my heart set on a gerber sabre for $40,000 plus. We saw the bot run at one of the atlantic city sign shows, and I was sold. We ordered the bot shortly after that. We spent about $10,000 because we ordered Artcam 2-D with it. We were up and running way faster cutting and carving than ever expected. Now we are a small sign company so maybe a gerber sabre or other machine was overkill for us anyway.

One other note. We had a problem with the bot about one and half years after we got it that we could not solve over the phone with shopbot. It was a loss of step problem that we could not fix. It would jam up even in air cuts. We tried replacing boards, motors, you name it we tryed it. Eventually Ted came to our shop personally to work it out and figured out the problem and fixed it. Fine ever since. Now that is customer service.

I also recently moved my bot 800 miles from Delaware to Georgia in a trailer. It was an easy move, all things considered. How many other CNC machines would be moved with such ease.

My point is. I belive in Shopbot 100% If Ted says the machines are only sold now with tables included there is a reason for it. I still think you can't find a better value, and support. This forum is the best.

Thanks my 2 cents worth.
Dave

[waynelocke]

Looking at the PRS machine in the brochure Ted posted, there doesn't seem to be a table per se. The three legs and table supports seem to bolt directly to the bottom of the extruded aluminum side rails so there seems to be fewer avenues for making your own table. Without the steel side rails the table shipping should be considerably reduced. I am only looking at the pictures, so what do I know?

Wayne