BobCad / Cam vs Turbocad & Parts Wizard

[sagreen83]

I am considering purchase of a shopbot, and am completely confused as to the software that I should purchase to do what I need. Have read all that I can on the older posts, but am still confused.

I would like to be able to do several things. 1) Cutout 2d cabinet parts. 2) Crown / Dentil Molding 3) Various 3d relief work i.e. carving appliqués, corbels etc. 4) Signs.

Why couldn't a person just use TurboCad (Which I am failure with) and import into the parts wizard to get the tool paths, as opposed to buying one of the higher cost CAD / CAM packages? When you are buying CAD / CAM software, where is most of your $$ going, into the CAD or the CAM part?

If the answer is the TurboCad / Parts Wizard option is not function enough, or too time consuming, then how do I get there? I am currently looking at BobCad/Cam for the 2d and 3d work, and VS3D to convert my scanned images into tool paths. I've seen alot of chatter about BobCad/Cam, MasterCam, Rhino and VS3D. But, I like the price point of BobCad if that's the direction I have to go.

I guess the bottom line is that I would like to do the above things, but not spend a small fortune to get there! I know this is a tired thread, but what is everybody else using to do what I am wanting to do?

Bewildered!
Scott...

[gerald_d]

Hi Scott, in your 3rd paragraph, did you mean to say "Which I am familiar with"?

[billp]

Scott,
Under your third point "various 3D relief work, i.e carving appliqués, corbels, etc", you raise the bar for software tremendously. Yes, you certainly can do cabinet parts, and SOME moldings, and SOME signs with the Turbocad/Part Wizard "package". BUT once you get into 3D work you usually need 3D software if for no other reason than to save HOURS of "workarounds" to get from 2D TO 3D...
There IS a reason 3D software costs more, it DOES more, and it does it faster, and better.
I know of a number of people who bought into the "price point" of Bobcad, etc., and almost everyone of them has later admitted that while the software might be able to do what they need, they did not find it intuitive, easy to grasp, or even capable of some of the projects they had in mind. Instead of listening to a salesguy ask others who have used the software in a similar process to what you hope to do.
If you only anticipate doing 20% of your work in 3D it might be more prudent to have other people generate the toolpaths for you until you see where your business is headed. This way you can "shop" the software packages by finding people with various programs to geberate toolpaths, and in turn learn which ones are capable of giving you what you want/need.

[sagreen83]

Gerald, thanks... yes I intended to say "Familiar".

Bill, thanks for your sage advise. I received a similar e-mail from another helpful member of the forum that said I needed to "Walk before I ran". Always good advice!

The VS3D package looks interesting. I imported my company logo, a jpeg, into the demo, and it created a pretty impressive relief. Anyone else used this one? I've seen someone else mention that there is a TIF converter included with the Shopbot. Can it do similar things as VS3D? Are either of these programs easy to use? It would appear to me that VS3D has a niche that isnt getting filled by any of the CAD/CAM packages out there and if its easy enough to use, might be worth purchasing in the start.

[Brady Watson]

Scott,
I bought Bobcad to do 3D work...I can't recommend it for that purpose. It is as good as any other for 2D work.

VS3D did not impress me in the least. You can use any number of programs to create a 3D relief from a photo. The SB TIF converter is one of them. I would not waste my money on VS3D for lofting pictures. You can do it for free (with the SB conv) or buy a program like Rhino which can generate a relief from a picture by using the 'Heightfield from Bitmap' function. Any Bitmap or Tif to 3D is just OK. There really is no perfect way to get a super clean relief from a photo no matter what software you buy at any cost.

To run 3D toolpaths get MillWizard by DelCAM from ShopBot. It's $250. You can get an older copy of Rhino if you look around for under $500.

As with anything else you get what you pay for. Don't expect $10,000 performance and ease from $1,000 worth of software. The Rhino/MillWizard combo will let you get your feet wet until you see if spending thousands is worth it or not.

-Brady

[daniel_carr]

There are several programs which can import an image, turn it into a relief, and generate tool paths.

Scott,
As you mentioned, VS3D can do that well (like the others). But unlike the others, VS3D provides virtual sculpting tools (hammering, chiseling, scraping, smoothing, etc.). I believe that VS3D is superior at being able to design, manipulate, and machine highly-detailed (high resolution) artwork. Of course, I'm biased since I wrote (and use) VS3D.

Brady,
I realize that VS3D is not going to be everyone's cup of tea. VS3D's operational paradigm, although relatively simple, is different than most other CAD/CAM packages. You apparently never requested an evaluation key or any help in using or evaluating VS3D. Without an evaluation (or permanent) license key, you would not be able to output any files or save work.

I would be happy to assist anyone, at no obligation, with the best ways to utilize VS3D to design and cut parts.

Daniel Carr
www.DesignsComputed.com/vs3d (http://www.DesignsComputed.com/vs3d)

PS: VS3D is currently priced at $975.

[Brady Watson]

Daniel,
I did evaluate VS3D and after using it didn't think that it was a good match for me. It looks like a great program in it's own right, but how well does it suit the needs of a shopbot owner?

I bought Rhino and MillWizard because I can easily and methodically do 2-rail sweeps with different end profiles to an exact Z-height, create reliefs from photos, edit STL and 3DS files before machining, scale 1,2 or 3 axes independently, spin & rotate profiles, boolean weld 3D objects and other functions not apparent in VS3D. ShopBot's are generally woodworking tools. When doing custom molding, cabinet doors and other items, the functionality listed above is imperative. I may have missed that functionality in the program, so please correct me if it does have those capabilities.

Just out of curiosity, roughly how many ShopBot owners currently use VS3D? I haven't heard of anyone with a SB using it or posting about it besides you from time to time. Do you own a ShopBot? Can you post pics of things made with VS3D and a ShopBot?

Thanks!
-Brady

[daniel_carr]

Brady,

VS3D, as far as woodworking goes, is really good for 3D carving. If a person just wants to cut out flat shapes (basic cabinet parts, for example) then VS3D is probably not the tool to use. But if you want to carve a fancy (detailed) sculpted design into the face of a cabinet door, then VS3D might be the best way to go.

VS3D can import STL and DXF files, for example, but not 3DS (yet). VS3D can do all the things you mentioned, except for the 3DS import.

"VS3D" actually has two different parts, called "VS3D" and "VScad3". VS3D uses a "raster" paradigm like ArtCam Pro. VScad3 uses a vector paradigm like most CAD software. A key feature is that you can export your model from one paradigm to the other (and back) on the fly. You can start VScad3 from VS3D (and vice versa). Both programs can run concurrently.

Here is an image showing a DXF model of a NASCAR racer imported into VScad3:
http://www.designscomputed.com/images/vs_figure_01.jpg
The top image shows the 3D model, rotated into a perspective view. The bottom image shows the result of exporting the model to VS3D (to create a relief surface - with a reduced Z height in this example). VS3D can easily generate the tool paths to cut such a relief surface on a 3-axis machine (like a ShopBot). VS3D can output ShopBot part files.

I'm guessing that you only worked in VS3D and never got into the VScad3 part.

I do not currently have a ShopBot. Unfortunately, there is not one in my vicinity that I know of. I will contact some of my customers who are using VS3D with other brand routers to see what they have made. As far as I know, no ShopBot owner has yet to even try cutting a VS3D part on a ShopBot. If anyone wants to volunteer, I'd be happy to walk them through the whole process over the phone.

[sagreen83]

Daniel,

I would be glad to run some parts through when my ShopBot gets here in 6 weeks. If you send me an e-mail, I'll let you know when I get it.

Scott...

[daniel_carr]

Frank Leinbach cut a ShopBot file that I made in VS3D and sent to him. Here is the result:
http://www.designscomputed.com/vs3d/examples/md.html

[Brady Watson]

Looks great!

How long did it take to machine? I am guessing a while with a v-bit and .015 stepover.

-Brady

[daniel_carr]

Thanks,

It took about 2 hours to run at 1"/second. But I think it could easily cut at 2"/second (half the time).

That was just one horizontal traversal pass. Frank was going to run a vertical traversal pass to clean it up some more.