Anyone using kcdw?

[dray]

I am looking at buying a shopbot or shop sabre or techno cnc for small cabinet shop in Southern Ca.

I have been using kcdw for design for about 5-6 years. I know that there are alot of shopbot users so it may be the most practical way to go but is it the most cost efficient?

What is the easiest and most seamless way to cut a kcdw cut list?

Thanks
Dan

[steve4460]

I think you can buy an add on to there package so that you can make cutt files for the shopbot .
Talk to Shopbot when you buy it they have everything you need .

[sawkerf]

Danny, call Jackie Hall @ KCDw tech support. She'll fill you in on all the steps to get you going. It cost me 4K to get the CNC upgrade and another $1,500.00 for the MDF door option. You'll also need a CAM software such as the Artcam insignia with the "cabinetmaker" add-on, about another 3K. The Insignia is great and fast however they still have a few kinks to work out. Best regards, Kip

[dray]

artcam is the only way?

[sawkerf]

Well, of course not. It's just that KCDw, Artcam and Shopbot all worked with me personally as well as others, to develop the Atrcam Cabinetmaker program. I'm sure KCDw could suggest other programs but I dare say that any are better than Shopbot and Artcam. Just my opinion based on 8 years experience with KCDw and 2 years with Shopbot & Atrcam. Happy routing, Kip

[dray]

Can anyone fill me in on well the least expensive way to go? I got an estimate from Chad at shopbot for 28k I think. Im not trying to be cheap, I just want the most economical package. Do I really need a spindle for a small cabinet shop? Maybe 3 entertainment centers a month? Do I need a 7k vacuum setup? Can I make one?

Please give me your input. Im recovering from a bad bad bad broken knee and want to make a one man shop on the cheap. We do alot of moldings actually 75% of my business is moldings. But in the last few years every time I train a good man, as soon as I teach them cabinetry they leave!!! this is the 4th time in 10 years.. Any other carpenters out there please feel free to jump in and gimme some info.. Thx
Danny Ray
www.drayconstruction.com (http://www.drayconstruction.com)

[fleinbach]

Danny

{Do I really need a spindle for a small cabinet shop?}

No, my opinion is if you want to save money a router will work just fine for your needs. The only real sacrifice will be speed but that should be of no concern on 3 entertainment centers a month.I have owned 2 Shopbots the first was a PRT with a router and I currently have an AlphaPRT with a spindle. I was getting quality cuts with the router and the only real improvement with the spindle was I can get quality cuts at a faster speed.

{Do I need a 7k vacuum setup? Can I make one?}

No, I have been without a vacuum system for the past 3 years and have had no problem screwing parts to the table. All you need to do is use tabbing and place the screws in the waste area. And yes you can make one just search this forum and you will see lots of information about it. In fact I am in the process of making mine hopefuly in the next couple of weeks.

[sawkerf]

Danny, I feel your pain with the trainees. That is a universal problem in this trade. As far as the system goes, I got started for 23K including the upgrade to KCDw CNC and Insignia. I started with a PC router then upgraded to the Milwaukee. I'm sure you could make it without a vac table but I would not even try it. Kip

[myxpykalix]

I set my vac table up with 2 feins, pvc pipes, fittings for less than 1G.

[fleinbach]

Jack,

I am considering purchasing a fein vacuum. How well does it work for you? I have already read on the forum they work pretty well.

[beacon14]

In my opinion, you will eventually want both a spindle and a vacuum system, however there is no reason why you can't start with a router and a plain old plywood table until you are ready to upgrade.

You can make a vacuum table inexpensively and power it with a Fein vac (or two), then if you feel the need and can justify it later replace the Fein(s) with a blower. If you are trying to get started for the lowest cost this is the route I would go.

I would make the vac table a priority as it will pay for itself pretty quickly if you are doing 3 wall units a month. The spindle would be nice to have but the main advantages are noise level and speed of cut - you can get by without it for as long as you can stand the noise.

For cabinet work if you are drilling a lot of system holes the air drill is a viable alternative to a second Z axis and a second router (assuming you have a decent compressor). Either of those could be added later as well.

[myxpykalix]

Frank....THEY SUCK !!! and thats a GOOD thing! I like them but for small things like these lithopanes i'm making i've made a jig that i drop the square of corian in and just clamp the jig to the table (since these are 2-3 hour cutting files)I guess i don't want to waste the electricity. But other things i've put on table you can't move when the vacumn is on. Be aware though that if you have any sawdust under your material to be cut it acts like little wheels and will let the router push the material all over the table, so you must always check your suction before starting a cut. For me i was just afraid of using screws on material for holddown, afraid of ruing bits.
If i was you, and wanted to go the cheap route, i'd go with mechanical fasteners (bits will be cheaper to replace by the time you learn how to avoid them) than a vacumn (but i like the vacumn option) THe feins are very quiet and powerful, I paid little over $300./each for turbo III's, go with a router ($300 v $3000). Check to see if some of these software packages have demo's you can try first to make sure it will do all the things that you need it to do.

[richards]

Danny,
Unless you're experienced with Shopbot CNC routers, I would buy the basic machine, learn how to use it and then add the options that you need. I have a 3hp spindle on my machine and two Fein vacuums. The spindle is too small to cut cabinet parts at full depth all day long, but because the two Fein vacuums can't hold parts cut with one pass anyway, it doesn't matter. Right now, with my setup I cut the 3/4-inch material to a depth of about -0.60 inches in one pass, flip the sheet over and then run a laminate trimmer along the cut. It works. A full production shop that has enough work to keep a machine cutting all day long would need a large spindle and a large vacuum. (And a roller system to move sheets onto and off the table. And a forklift to move the material around. And a shop the size of Wal-Mart to store everything. Maybe that's a little exageration. But everytime I've added something to the machine thinking that I'd finally added all the options to be productive, I've found that I've just moved the bottle-neck to some other area of the shop. Basic machine. Basic router. Basic clamps. You'll have enough equipment to get you started and enough equipment to build a business.)

[Ryan Patterson]

Danny,
If price is the problem go with the basic Alpha setup like mike suggested. When I bought mine I started with two Z’s with a router on both. I then upgraded to a 3hp spindle and mounted an air drill on the second Z. I now have a 3hp spindle, 2hp spindle on the second Z-axis and a modified air drill The 3hp does have enough power to cut cabinet parts at full depth. I can cut 5/8” melamine at 12”/sec at 16,000 rpm. I cut 200 to 300 sheets a week and the 3hp does great. I have only stalled the spindle once and it was when I was trying to cut well over 12”/sec. I did not start with a vac system. I found out real quick, I had to have one for cutting cabinet parts. The first vac table I used a shop vac it work but it did not hold the parts to be able to cut in one pass. I now use a 15hp regenerative blower for hold down. The Fien will work but you will not be able to cut smaller parts in one pass. One of the great things about Shopbots you can easily add more options to them. There are a lot of software options out there. I returned your phone call and left a massage (I may not of called the right number) You can give me a call again @ 239-290-1143.
Ryan

[richards]

Ryan,
I agree that the 3hp spindle can cut in a single pass; however, mine heats up quite quickly. I like to keep the spindle at 120-degrees or lower, but constant heavy cutting pushes it past 135-degrees. That's awfully close to the maximum allowable temperature for the spindle.

[dray]

Hey you guys...
Thanks for all the replys. I am not trying to go "on the cheap" but Im kinda "thrifty" lol..

From the answers on the boards it seems everyone eventually went with a spindle and vacuum setup.

Im just concerned about all the real estate probs right now, I dont want ANY new employees and Im recovering from a bad accident. But you guys answered my question..

So now I have to decide if I want to Invest all the $$ now or later.

Thanks again

[dray]

Oh Yeah, thx kip!!
At the moment I just dont have it in me to train another guy and Im sure you understand. I Love what I do but all my efforts end up in training my competition lol, every damn time. I suppose I did the same thing a long time ago but it just gets frustrating..

THX guys
Danny L. Ray II
www.drayconstruction.com (http://www.drayconstruction.com)