Looking to purchase, Need some opinions

[legacy_millwork]

Hello all, new here and have been considering the purchase of a cnc router. I am a small one man cabinet shop that is fairly well equipped (Edgebander, slider, etc.) What I am looking to do is speed up my cabinet panel production and accuracy. I am aware that the cnc will outproduce me by a large margin.

I have yet to decide whether or not to use the cnc as a point to point machine or nest the cabinet parts. I will also be using the machine to cut arches, flutes, circles and all the other neat stuff a cnc shines at.

The tooling that will be required will be a 3/8" cutout bit (if nesting), a quarter inch bit for the backs, a 5mm drill bit for shelf pins, a 10mm drill bit for inline hinge plates, and 1/8" drill bit for predrilling screw holes on unfinished ends.

My thought is to use a Spindle and two air drills to accomplish almost all of my machining. But for the price of two drills I could get another spindle z for the machine instead, which would be the better option?

If I nested parts I would be looking at a vacuum system also. I only have single phase power so a phase converter would also be necessary. If I ran the machine p2p I could come up with some sort of clamping system to use while the part is being cut out.

Looking for opinions on whether or not you think this is feasible, worthwhile, cost effective, or whether my whole line of thinking is whacked. I feel that shopbot is still my best bet after looking around and researching for a year, due to the low cost and quick ROI.

Thanks for your time and sorry for the long winded post.

Justin

[andre]

Justin
I am also a one man shop.
My advise is to start with the basics. Start with a router instead of a spindle and save yourself $2000. Spend the extra money on the prs alpha. I am cutting my cab parts with a porter cable 3 1/4 horse and having great results.
As far as what you will use it for, the possibilties are endless. Start with the basic software shopbot includes with the machine, it is plenty to design and cut pretty much any 2d geometrical shape you can think of. The training cd it comes with is great. watch it and you will be cutting things in no time.
I have two fein vacs for my hold down and it works unbelivably well. Less than $1000.00 for the two vacs, the pluming and harware. You wont need 3 phase for this setup, just 220.
Good luck

[legacy_millwork]

Andre

Thanks for the quick response I will keep the router in mind.

With the fein vacs I would consider it but I read somewhere on the forum about altitude affecting your vacuum. Our altitude here is about 4850 feet, so do you think I would get enough hold down with the fein method?

I would much rather go that way, because the cost savings would be huge. $1000 for vacs vs $6000 for the blower and another $2500 for the phase converter, not to mention the $ for the electrician. "OUCH"

If anybody has opinions on the vacuum system and my altitude let me know. That would really help boost me into this cnc system.

Thanks all

Justin

[dray]

Justin.. Start with the basics. I would get a single Spindle and make your own vacuum table which I have yet to do.

I use a 1/4" bit for most everything, but I never do face frames only euro style. I'm in southern Ca, Im not sure where you are but feel free to call me on any cabinet/cnc info. I just got mine about 3-4 months ago and I'm putting together cabinets with a quality I never had making them by hand.

[legacy_millwork]

Danny,

I hear ya, I also do euro style cabinets and it's the repeated setups that really irratate me, tear down the 3/4" dado, put in the quarter inch dado, shim it to get the right clearances.
Go to the shelf drilling machine, fence isn't long enough, make marks on the board to line up. Oops holes 1/32" inch off shelf wobbles slightly, drives me batty.

Anyhow what operations are you doing with just 1/4" bit? Shelf pin holes, dados, and cutout, or are you just machining your parts?

Thanks for the invite to call, I just might take you up on that.

Justin

[andre]

Justin
I'm not sure what affect that will have. I am under 2000 and have great hold down with two feins.
Search the forum, I know there are alot of people with ideas on this subject.

[cip]

Justin,
I was doing the same thing you are right now about 3 years ago, research, research, research. I ended up with the 5x12 alpha, 5 hp spindle, 15 hp vac., air drill, and indexer. A lot of money but if I were to do it again I would'nt change a thing. I hit the ground running and never looked back. I use it all and have loved it.

my 2 cents.

Mike

[richards]

Altitude is a factor with vacuum. I'm at about 4,500 feet. With everything closed, I get about 5" mercury, which is about 2.5 lbs of pressure per square inch. My setup includes two Fein vacuums plumbed through a common manifold to four zones, with a shutoff valve at each zone. I can't cut melamine in one pass, even side panels. The cutting force is greater than the vacuum hold down. My method is to leave a 0.030" skin to hold the sheet together and then trim that off at the router table.

[legacy_millwork]

Mike Wright,

Sounds like a great setup that you have there. I have also been doing lots of research and without going to an extreme cost of over $50 to $100,000 or more (which for a small one man shop is impossible to handle) the shopbot seems to still be the best option.

The problem seems to lie with changing the bits and how to program that in to your nesting of cabinet parts.

Mike Richards,

I was afraid that was going to be the answer to the vacuum situation. So are you using a down cutting bit or a compression bit? I was hoping with the combination of two feins and a compression spiral I could at least hold down the larger panels.

Would a system of four feins, one to each zone work better with the hold down or am I just chasing my tail? I would still be well under the cost of a vacuum pump with the 4 fein system.

Thanks for all the info, keep it coming.

Justin

[henrik_o]

Hello Justin,

You're in the situation I was in until about a month ago, i.e when I ordered my 'bot.

You seem to have a very clear and concise idea of what you want to achieve, which I think is the most problematic step, really. Once you know what you want to do, it's a matter of filling in blanks, more or less.

First thing I did when I was ready to shop was to consider size. While the 96-60-8 is a bargain, I decided that I can justify the cost of a 120-60-8. If it wasn't for Decospan and their high quality products, and especially their superior logistics -- any veneer, on any common panel substrate (and some less common), done and delivered in a week, and it's a fixed price even if you order just one panel-- I probably would have settled for the 96-60-8, but I really am in love with their 'big blockboards'. So, 120-60 it was. I then decided that the jump to 14 inches on the z axis was acceptable in price, since it allows me to use an indexer without slaughtering the table, and also to use the 'bot as a p2p for curved furniture parts.

Next, hold down. I'm not entirely decided on this one. I'm willing to spend money on this, because I want a good vacuum setup. However, since I can noise insulate the blower, I really want a Roots blower rather than the regenerative type. For some reason Dresser are being difficult about this, I have no idea why but my attempts to purchase one of their pumps through shopbot was nixed, and when I tried their local distributor here, they would not sell it unless I provided them with 'detailed information about my current setup'. Very, very, very strange.

Anyway, I'm not in a hurry because I already have a Siemens ELMO blower which I can use interim.

Spindle, well, I can't say I'm sure about this, but the HSD 4hp seems like a good deal compared to the 5hp Colombo, and I figure if my needs grow I can buy a Colombo and switch the HSD to my tandem z.

Yeah, I'm getting a tandem z because some of the operations I foresee will greatly benefit from being able to use two cutters without any toolchanges.

I will add an air drill later.

quote:I have yet to decide whether or not to use the cnc as a point to point machine or nest the cabinet parts.
I would be interested to hear how you're approaching this, since I've had thoughts along the same lines as well. What mixes it up in my head is the question of the ratio of humans to machine(s). Conventionally, p2p can only beat nested base if we're assuming multiple operators, at least that's my understanding -- it's both a question of operating the machinery and moving parts. So, for a one man shop nested base should be superior, while a p2p process that has the required personnel will always win speed-wise. Of course, speed is not the only issue here, far from it, but it is one of them. Currently, my shop consists of me and my two employees, sometimes a fourth helper. We are pretty much exactly at the threshold where we should be able to impliment high speed p2p, at least if the helper becomes a full time employee. So, if we're just producing parts, p2p is probably the way to go. However, if we are producing parts for our own projects, then nested base would be much better because it frees up my employees and me to do the work the machines can not do, like assembly and finishing.
One thing that must also be taken into consideration is that if we go nested base, then the cad/cam phase becomes absolutely crucial. Currently, we can survive if I get ill for a couple of days, or fall behind in my design and cad duties, because my employees can step in, do the cutlists and machine without me. If the work flow depends on timely cad/cam, then I must be on top of it all the time, always, otherwise everything shuts down, or I have to train one or more of my employees to be able to fill in.
Anyway, that's some preliminary thoughts, I'd love to hear yours.

quote:My thought is to use a Spindle and two air drills to accomplish almost all of my machining. But for the price of two drills I could get another spindle z for the machine instead, which would be the better option?
If it's between two added air drills or an added spindle, I would probably go with the air drills if System 32 cabinets was the absolute majority of my work. I would prefer an added spindle/router and an air drill, if that's an option, however.

But that's just speculation on my part, having never worked with cnc.

quote:Looking for opinions on whether or not you think this is feasible, worthwhile, cost effective, or whether my whole line of thinking is whacked.

For what it's worth, I think it's feasible, worthwhile, cost effective and not at all whacked. You seem to have well articulated goals, which is perhaps the most important thing of all.

I've specced out so many different investment scenarios I've lost count: add another sliding table saw, another line borer, two shapers, p2p, you name it. I can't vouch for the soundness of my internal arguments, but I always come back to cnc one way or the other.

To be perfectly honest, in our trade, I think it really comes down to one thing. Are you comfortable with computers, and are you interested in your line of work?

If you can answer both of those questions with an honest yes (and if it's the first you fail on, you can always learn, but curiosity can not be taught), then cnc is for you.

Unlike almost any other type of woodworking machinery, cnc is not primarily about the machine, it's about the human. (One day it will be renamed, I think). The options are nearly endless, if you have a modicum of skills and a lust to learn and develop. It puts you in the driver's seat, and some people plain just don't have the handling skills, or worse, don't have the interest, to make that a winning proposition. But if you do, if you have that honest lust for what it is we do, then I think you and me are in for one heck of a ride.

In this world, what makes shopbot as a company truly stand out the way it does is not the price or quality of their offerings, imho. It's their human focus. Just look at how different cnc vendors advertise. Everyone uses images of intimidating steel monsters: power, mass, power , mass. But it's not about that. And lo and behold, then there's shopbot, who frames their ads with a human first. The human in the center. And then what that person does, the achievement of their work. In the background, yes, the machine.

This is the way it is supposed to be, imo. And this, their corporate philosophy, is what is making me take the plunge. I haven't seen the machine, there are no resellers, no support organization nearby, no nothing. I'm taking a chance here, something I would never ever do with any other piece of equipment, and I'm doing it because I have proof they put the human in the center, and that's what makes it click for me. Sometimes I have to pinch myself to realize it's true: I really am ordering 30k worth of equipment I've never seen from a company half way around the world. But then I remember this forum, and the whole philosophy of the Shopbot, and I'm ok. I'm a down to earth man, who have never cared much for slogans, but if I'd sum up my experience so far, this is what I'd say:

Putting the human in the driver's seat.

and

It's not a machine. It's a movement.

OK, I'll step down from the soapbox now

[dray]

Justin, I have a small shop as well. Me and a helper, But I have 4 painters but they dont build..

The reason I am saying go with the basics is that, for a small shop you will not be able to build as fast as it cuts with just the basic setup.

I have been building cainets the same way by hand for over 15 years. After I bought the cnc I had to change my way of doing things. I used to make the bare box then measure and cut pieces acordingly. Now I have to think the whole cabinet through , make a full cutlist then start laying out my dxf's in Part Wizard etc..

I dont have a vacuum setup , or a spindle but I am planning on making a vacuum setup. I currently tack my material down with 18g brad nails which works fine for now. I do want a spindle after seeing one run at the Jamboree couple weeks ago, but at the moment I just dont have time to mess with it.

The shopbot guys are really cool and I dont think it will cost you anymore to buy stuff at a later date.

I paid cash for my bot so I dont have any kind of a payment which is a plus.

It does take some getting used to which is why I say to get the basics until you find your groove. Then you will know exactly what your next upgrade will be.



my 2 cents

[richards]

Justin,
I use a downcut spiral for almost everything. The kerfs are full of sawdust, so vacuum leakage is not the problem; lack of enough vacuum is. (I also have a GAST vacuum that pulls about 21" of mercury. That device can hold almost anything, but it requires a vacuum mask specially cut for each part because any leakage causes the loss of all vacuum.)

Even the use of more Fein vacuums won't increase the actual amount of vacuum. You'll still have 5" of mercury of vacuum (in my case) but greater CFM, which will allow more leakage.

When I played around with the GAST vacuum, I found that 10" of mercury seems to be about the minimum that I would want to have available. So, if I were trying to cut parts in one pass, I would probably be looking for a blower that would give me about 15" of mercury (to allow for altitude loss) @ 300 cfm through an MDF spoil board.

[henrik_o]

I think what Danny is saying here; specifically

quote:I have been building cainets the same way by hand for over 15 years. After I bought the cnc I had to change my way of doing things. I used to make the bare box then measure and cut pieces acordingly. Now I have to think the whole cabinet through , make a full cutlist then start laying out my dxf's in Part Wizard etc..
... meshes quite well with what I was trying to articulate above. CNC in general, and nested base in particular, forces you to be on top, all the time. Your employees can't stand in for you unless you train them, and if you're alone, well, you can't make things up as you go along, or there goes the whole point of it all.

I think this is good. I know that the jobs where customer specs are not absolute (within reasonable limits) or the work flow on my end is not a done deal tend very much to become loss leaders. It's amazing how much time can be spent integrating something that ought to be simple, like a pull out shelf or drawer, into a project when it's not designed for from the beginning.

I know that sometimes when I'm supposed to be three places at once, one job will slink through as a "we'll make it up as we go along" deal. It's never worth it.

Going cnc and nested base will more or less force me to abandon that behaviour (at the very least, failure to plan will become much more evident), which --I admit-- in a sense kinda scares me, but on the other hand I figure the time savings involved with going cnc will hopefully allow for those projects to be carefully planned out as well.

[andre]

Justin just my 2 cents again
My philosopy has always been to start with what I need not what I think I may need later. That is why I started with the basics. I spent the xtra on the prs alpha and am using a pc router and I think this is what I will stay with. I use a 1/4 straight bit with 1/2 inch shank and cut to .65 on the first pass at 6"per/sec. I have done this with melamine face and venneer face with no tear outs. I drill my in holes with the same bit, no need for the air drill yet. Just my opinion, but i would start with the basics and decide what you need as you grow. but hey if you got the disposable cash go for it
I have full three phase power in my shop if I do decide to go the spindle way later

[thewoodcrafter]

I have always been of the opinion buy the best your can afford with respect to tools. I have a 15HP regen for hold down. I would never want to go back to any other hold downs. I have a 3HP spindle and a PC for a second Z. I am really glad I have the spindle. Besides the noise it cuts much cleaner than a router. I cut all my cabinets with 2 bits 5mm for holes and 3/8" for everything else. I may change this to 1/4" for everything else.
And if you are not paying cash and may lease get what you think you will need NOW. Why screw around do it right the first time.

[legacy_millwork]

Thank you for all your replies, there is lots of good thought in this thread.

Indeed in a cnc manufacturing situation you will have most of the work done on the front end vs figuring it out as you go.

I have ran the cabinet part output to the big dollar cnc's and am very familiar with two of the major cabinet software packages and nesting through them. Although I do not have that software available to me personally ($$$).

The neat thing about the Shopbot software that I have downloaded and tinkered with was the ease of some of the more basic operations. I really like the two letter command system that they employ. MX or M2 or J3 is much easier code to decipher than the g - code based systems I have limited experience with.

Henrick
I have seen both p2p and nesting in operation but done on a much bigger scale than I am going to attempt. My theory is to cut the blanks for all the machinable parts (ends, tops, bottoms, etc) and set them by the cnc. Then start the point to point operations on them while I am back at the slider saw cutting out my back blanks and adjustable shelf parts, that require no secondary machining.

Now I know that I will be jumping back and forth from the slider to the cnc, but the p2p type will eliminate me from setting up my dado saw twice, shimming it to fit, taking the parts to the line bore, figuring out where the shelf sits in the cabinet, etc, etc.

Even if time is a wash in the machining stage, when I get to assembly I will have the added benifit of having machined holes for drawer guides, predrilled screw holes and hinge plate holes, thus saving me time there.

The real benefit of the cnc to me will be the addition of accuracy, even the most careful measurements and figuring will sometimes be wrong.

The cnc can not to be viewed as a cure all for your problems, in fact it will create several other problems (software learning curve, more parts than people have time to assemble, slippage, spoil, and programming) But in time the new system will lead to more streamlined operations and cut down on human error on the machining side.

To me speed is a small part of what I want to achieve, I do not run at breakneck speeds, I want my customers to see the final product and pick up on the details (arches, flutes, columns, paneling and distressing) and feel like they got a good value for the money they invested in me.

To me a cnc frees me up from the machining time to spend more time on my detail work, because in the end a box without any detailing is still just a box.

Thank you to all who have posted so far, I am trying to absorb all you information you are giving to me. I would love to hear from more of you if you have a free minute.

Justin

[legacy_millwork]

Roger,

I feel the same way, to a point. You can overspend for what you really need.
You talk yourself into that little better spindle for another $1200 and then realize that you could be better of with an auto tool changer and then your up another $12000 from that cheap spindle you started with.

Then you realize you need to ground yourself and come back to square one. Really narrow down what you need and no more. Thats what I have been like since I started researching this, started here with a simple shopbot, then before I new it was up to a shop sabre, then a techno, onto the thermwood, then an scm, and now have come back full circle to the shopbot.

Justin

[elcruisr]

I'll put in my two bits as a longer term 'bot user. I started with a PRT and upgraded to an Alpha. The new machines look even better and will probably upgrade again.

In almost six years of running one, and at times two shifts a day, I have made some observations about what works and does not work in my operation.

If you plan on much production than hold down is first priority and there is no such thing as too much vacuum. There are times when my 15hp regen is not enough but I have never, ever, regretted spending the money on it. When you start spending a bunch of time with screws, clamps, masking, etc, production slows down and when cutting the sheer number of parts we cut that is lots of money lost.

On the spindle / router debate much will depend on usage. In my shop a router would never cut it. I push a 5 hp spindle pretty hard at times. I'd also not hesitate getting a 4 hp HSD. In a shop that only uses their machine for low volume occasional work I could see a router but not in mine. We cut up thousands of parts from 3/4" ply stock in single passes day in and day out. The difference in cuting smoothness may also be critical to some while a non issue to others. Just think really hard about what you plan to do with the machine.

Don't forget really good dust collection!

Try and include room for an out feed and parts sorting table in your setup. We never sort parts on the machine. Everything comes off in a group and gets sorted after we load and start a new file. Less wasted time.

Tool changers are great but the return on investment has yet to work out right for me and I don't have one. I can change and setup a new tool in just about 1 1/2 minutes. Learn to use area clearing and the like in your software and tool changes will be rare for most work. This might mean a slight change in construction methods sometimes like 1/4" shelf pins and the like.

Software can be critical but it's also the one place that's very easy to overspend. I'd start with the included software for a month or so than determine exactly what you want software to do for you. Then make sure that what you are going to buy will actually do that. See it in "the flesh" doing it and exporting files a 'bot can use if possible.Or you may decide the included software is all you need. Not everybody needs ArtCAM Pro or MasterCAM!

Oh, and at least in my world, saving a few bucks on cheap tooling is a total waste of money. I want high quality tooling with good technical support a phone call away.