TOTALLY DISGUSTED WITH SHOPBOT

[shipbuilder@adelphia.net]

I am totally disgusted with this $6,000 four hundred pound paper weight, the ShopBot. I am a small business, very small, one man. I am trying to develolp a line of model ship kits and had intended to use the ShopBot to cut out the thousands of parts for this kit. So far I've had nothing but trouble because the software that drives this machine is useless and full of bugs.

First, the Windows version of the converter software that came with the machine DOES NOT WORK, PERIOD. I posted a message in this forum about the problems with this software but no one answered. I filled out the ShopBot support page on their website 2 weeks ago, gave my phone number and email address and no one answered. This program does not work. It does not generate the proper code for different depth cuts and I have verified this with another user. Instead, I have turned to the DOS version and it does not work properly either and only coverts some of the cuts that are at a different depth. Both programs recognize the different colors in the DXF file and prompt you for the depth of cut but they do not generate the move of the Z axis to this depth. That is useless to me if it's a feature they support yet I can't use that feature if it does not work properly.

I want to do some 3D cutting but the machine has no software that cuts in 3D, you have to buy that software and your choices are limited to a cheap $250 program you must order from England and it is difficult and confusing to use because it's metric. Or you have to spend tens of thousands of dollars on REAL 3D software that is great for generating G-Code but USELESS if you own a ShopBot. Frankly I would not recommend this machine to anyone and am now going to have to pay my credit card company $6,000 plus interest on a machine that sits in my shop collecting more dust than making dust because it is USELESS TO ME, just as the ShopBot people are USELESS IN SUPPORTING THEIR LOUSY PRODUCT.

Buyer beware, I'd do some more looking before I'd buy a ShopBot. The support is USELESS and the software is even more USELESS.

Signed,

Robert E. Hunt
shipbuilder@adelphia.net (mailto:shipbuilder@adelphia.net)

[gerald_d]

The disgruntled/disgusted Mr Robert Hunt threw all his toys out of the cot and posted this message in each of the topics on this board. Thanks for the clean-up by the SB moderators!

Mr Hunt, your next step is to list it at e-Bay. I suggest to my fellow ShopBotters to ignore this tantrum and wait to pick up a bargain on e-Bay.

[bob buttons (Unregistered Guest)]

what size is your machine and where are you located? lets get this sale going here. Thanks

[gerald_d]

More info on service life (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=29&post=13372#POST13372) and location (http://www.lauckstreetshipyard.com/about.html)

[billp]

Mr. Hunt,
It would be too easy to sit here and pick away at some of the points you list above.Obviously you have hit one of those plateaus of frustration that should be expected when encountering totally new territory.
Instead, let me offer this; call/e-mail me and I'll try to help you with Millwizard and setting up files to get your model shipyard going... Regards, Bill Palumbo

[garbob]

Robert,

I'm sorry that you are having such a hard time. It happens! I had a similar history with my first machine. I thought that I'd just "hit a couple of buttons" and have all of these parts. NOT!!!!!!!! The learning curve on this technology is more like a learning WALL.

Things are a lot easier if you have a ton of mechanical experience AND you can decipher hiroglyphics AND you have lots of help. Otherwise you may spend some time in hell! Been there, done that! You will get through this

Shopbot support doesn't usually let people fall through the cracks, but it happens, they're not perfect, no matter how many sing their praises.

Don't give up. Take a deep breath, knock that chip off you're shoulder and call me if you want someone to commiserate with.

Apparently there isn't much empathy available of late, just ruffled feathers!
Gary

[gerald_d]

My feathers were ruffled while I watched Robert doing a terrorist blitz on this Forum by posted that same message in 16 places! Totally uncalled for. (Have a look at the messed up front page (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/board-topics.html).)

[kerrazy]

Robert,
You have to admit it is really a nice shade of blue, as far as paper weights go

As Bill has already extended an offer to you, I would hope that you accept it.
My thinking is this. Take a day or two off from the tool. Spend time with your family then start fresh next week.
If you are doing straight forward 2d cuts then you have all you need, you just need the guidance on how to use it.
I don't disagree with your statements as it can be overwhelming. But it is kind of like learning to use a computer for the first time, very painful and requires a quite an investment in time to see any improvement in speed and accessability.
Between Bill, myself, Gerald or many others who visit the forum regularly, I am confident that after looking at what you are trying to accomplish we can get you in the right direction.
At this point it is your money sitting there so you have already made that much effort, why not let us help you reach your goal.
Feel free to contact me directly after tuesday of next week @ 613.880.8292. If I miss your call I will call you back on my dime. And let's see if we can get you working your tool to its potential.
Dale

[robtown]

To any of those with ruffled feathers:

If you are near the Atlanta area, I would invite you to come on by with your files on disk, and an open mind.

My door is always open, and I'll bet you a lunch that I can change your mind with nothing more than what comes with a shopbot tool (parts wizard) and corelDraw/Illustrator/Freehand, or your prefered flavor of CAD.

The problem isn't the tool, or the tool's support. It's just a tool, and it does what you tell it to do. Mine has done everything I've told/asked/begged it to do, everytime, even when I asked it to do it wrong...

[andrewm]

You know you have got to love the Shopbot community! Heck these comments aren't coming from the factory but from satisfied users who enjoy helpng each other. Its guys like this that take the Shopbot to a level way above what any company has the time to do.

Like any advanced computer hardware or system I have ever worked with, its not just a push of a button and there is a learning curve. The rewards are great once you get over this curve though. In many cases I end up running my design file through a couple of different softwares till I get it massaged into a Shopbot file that works efficiently. (Corel Draw > Parts Wizards) to The Shopbots not the Star Trek replicator but a heck of a great tool.

Robert, I would suggest the next time you want help you ask politely instead of spamming a whole forum of users who try and help one another.

[alano]

Robert,
Believe me when I say that I and several others can say they did share in your frustration at some point when we all first started out.
Regarding software, yes the Windows version does still have some bugs associated with it, and I know for a fact that the folks at ShopBot are addressing them. Your move to use the DOS version therefore is a prudent one (in my opinion). Within the realm of software, there is the 'controlling' portion, and then there are utilities. I can attest that the controlling portion of the DOS version runs error free. I would suggest that you import/open your vector file in DelCAM's PartWizard software, and allow that piece of software to establish your offsets, cut direction, bit depth, etc. rather than utilizing the converter(s). Going this direction I feel will help you gain confidence over what your cutting intentions are.
I know that Bill Palumbo made this offer as well, but I will extend my help to you also. If you send me a part file, along with bit size and geometry and material thickness, I will return to you a .sbp file that you can execute on your machine.
Regards,
Alan

[Scott Smith (Unregistered Guest)]

I’ll join the “lets help Mr. Hunt support group”. What’s the first thing we can tackle?

Scott
PS “You have to admit it is really a nice shade of blue, as far as paper weights go.” Dale, That may be the funniest thing I’ve ever read on the forum.

[paul_n]

Robert, I live in Northwest Georgia, and I to have had problems in the past, but once they were overcome. I'm a very happy ShopBot owner, and I also will help you where I can !!!

Paul

[stickman]

Robert,

I'm on board with the "Mr. Hunt Support Group"

Do you need help? Do you want help? I'm kinda a new guy here to all this, but I am a fast learner and have produced some amazing things with the ShopBot. My poor blue machine does not get the attention it needs from me. Family and a full-time job hold me from sleeping with my machine. I love working with it and want it to become more than family for me.

Maybe you could invest a little money into a burned out CAD Tech, that could be flown out to help you. I am sure even a ticket to Gerald to come help you would be invited. It sounds like you are a little frustrated. That is what this forum is here for. TO HELP YOU. I think I have gotten e-mails or responses from everyone that has replied to your screams!

I'd be more than willing to come out and help you with your investment. Call me we can discuss terms.

Thanks, Jay R Mack
StickMan WoodWorking

[bill.young]

Robert,

If you're still following this thread I'd suggest you think about heading down to Durham for the Jamboree in 2 weeks. I'd bet you could get help with a lot of the problems you're experiencing, both from other ShopBotters and from the ShopBot staff. There's also a Level 1 training on Thursday that there may still be room in. Heck, I'll even pay the $25!

Hope to see you there,
Bill

[Nancy]

Thanks to all the ShopBotters who have offered to help. You make up one of the best support groups that exists anywhere!

[weslambe]

I'm in the "I'll buy it" camp. Tell us how much you really want to get rid of the bot, and I'm sure that some of us would line up for the discount.

In the programming world, we call it GIGO or garbage in, garbage out. You can't expect a tool to read your mind. I have spent hundreds of hours correcting my cabinet door making technique and still curse the machine when it's clearly my fault.

Wes

[mikeb]

now now lets not kick a man while he is down. it would be a very frustrating thing to get a cnc machine without knowing what u are getting and playing with cadcam software first or using one at a job.
so...how much do u want for the machine????

[stickman]

Robert,

If I were you I would take a look at the ShopBot Camps or the Jamboree. I am unable to make the Jamboree this month, but I wanting to try and get to the Iowa CAMP. I feel that I need to get with some of my other "brothers and sisters". That way I can feed on the information and projects that they are working on. I'm wanting to hit the Jamboree next year. I'd like to help you the most that I can.

I feel kinda bad from the rollie issue and him selling his Shopbot. I would have killed for a machine like this in high school or middle school. If his reserve isn't made, maybe he call me of e-mail me so that we can get together and I can help him through his problems. Its too bad he wouldn't just cancel it.

I'll help where I can.

[gerald_d]

I wouldn't give Robert false hope that a jamboree or camp will empower him to do the work he wanted to do. It is like a guy buying a typewriter and then believing he will produce award-winning novels - hanging out with other writers for a weekend is not going to achieve much.

[sheldon@dingwallguitars.com]

Yeah, but Gerald, without hope you don't look for the less obvious solutions.

[gerald_d]

I cannot forget seeing Robert's opening post repeated all over this Forum. Re-reading his post now again, he is way beyond looking for hope - to the contrary, he is seeking to destroy rather than to build. Please forgive me for having no patience with that type of attitude.

[dmdraper]

Thanks Gerald. I think that needed to be said. I agree with you. But, I also admire the kind hearted folks who offered to help him. That's what this forum is all about.

[erik_f]

I understand how he feels, but at the same time...I know from experiance in the tech field, in sales and customer service that losing my cool never gets me anywhere. At the same time I know I've done some pretty stupid things in the heat of the moment so I can't really fault anyone for being pissed off, confused, and scared. I think there is a happy medium for helping someone in that position. To leave him hanging only re-enforces the fact that he is right about his current position that he has wasted his hard earned time and money. The only right answer is to help him...even in his frothy state...and yes sometimes take the abuse, and help talk him down. Now some folk are just unreasonable, and you know what...you don't have to turn your back on them...because they all eventually go away anyway...no matter how nice and helpful you are to them on the other line.

Erik

[gerald_d]

May I suggest to Nancy that this thread be closed for further posting? Robert is not taking part in it any longer.

[billp]

Just because Robert is not posting does NOT mean he is not taking part in it...I hope he is reading some of our offers and will at some time in the future take us up on it. Besides I think it's good for everyone to learn how we as a community deal with issues that aren't always pleasant...

[webbhead]

I had the same trouble trying to use the DXF converter. Got all frustrated. Called SB & they said use Part Wizard to generate the code, not the Control Software. Problem solved.

[pacoisa@cooptel.qc.ca]

"Besides I think it's good for everyone to learn how we as a community deal with issues that aren't always pleasant..."

Well...Let's not get too spiritual here!!!
I'm STILL waiting for info from info with money in my hand!!! Like Robert I do feel this forum to be kind a selective to it's user!?!?

And what about this one: how should I consider spending that money before the machine is shipped?!!

"Buyer beware, I'd do some more looking before I'd buy a ShopBot. The support is USELESS and the software is even more USELESS."

I do feel insecure...

[Support]

KENN, we don't require registration in order to post but we'd prefer that you post all messages using the same name unless, of course, there are two people using the same email address. http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=312&post=13602#POST13602

[pacoisa@cooptel.qc.ca]

Well Nancy...PACO and I require answers to purchase!!! I'm contributing to Paco's new buisness!!! But STILL not answered!!!

This should be lived!!! Like a chat... Ooouuuuuhhhhh...

But opinions from forum's users and others considering SB would be appreciate.

KENN and PACO

This post is about satisfaction right?!!

[alano]

Ken and Packo wrote: "This post is about satisfaction right?!!"

Well, I'll state that I'm happy and totally satisfied with my ShopBot.

But I also do know a lot of folks after seeing my Bot that would just absolutely love to buy one and do the things I do. Some have, and they are happy with their SB's too. Others have 'confessed' to me that although they would love to get into table routing, they just dont think they would have what it takes (i.e.; LOTS of time and dedication, and the drive to get past the frustrations).

As I stated earlier in this thread, I too was frustrated in the beginning. But I never gave up. In retrospect the things that were causing me such frustration now seem rather trivial. So can the frustrations and learning curve be overcome? Sure. Well, I guess it all depends on the person.

Just a thought......

Alan

[dave_west]

People That can't screw in a light bulb, shouldn't attempt to run a shopbot, or a hair dryer

[kerrazy]

Kenn and Paco,
I have had my tool for 15 months and it has not only paid for itself but it has afforded me a great learning opportunity. I unlike many other users have the luxury that my job is to teach people how to use the tool. The people I teach have intellectual disabilities and they are getting it.

The trick is to break it down in small increments. When you learned how to speak, you did not start spilling out every word in the dictionary but started with just a few words.
Learning this tool is vary similar. Start with simple files and try and get those mastered before adding on additional features. I also visited ShopBot before the purchase for a 2 day course as for our group the investment was very sizable when we imported the tool into Canada. When it was all said and done it nearly cost us the equivelant of a part-time staff's annual salary. We support up to 60 participants a week with just 4 core staff, in many aspects of life, so I like many other people in a small business had to decide whether the risk was worth taking. It would mean no summer staff for possibly two summers, unless we could make it work.

Well we got our tool in January and by August it was paid for. It may have been blind luck but it was a risk that paid off, and now we have 2 summer staff positions that we will be able to pay for with the money generated from our ShopBot.
Any problems I had were ussually operated ( OK ME) generated. I can't say I have ever got to the point of complete frustration with the tool. I have many times been very upset with myself for letting me beat my head against the wall because I had done something silly in the file set up. But this was not a ShopBot issue, but meerly my inability to use software properly.

I have put the tool through its paces, from doing 3D signage, Raised panel doors, Corbel post, Plinth blocks, mass cutting cast acrylic, Hard Maple profile cuts, Cutting sheet goods for bookcases, Heritage hutches, and armoir entertaiment units you name it I have tried it and each time I walk away with a smile saying WOW.

The tool is like life, the more you put into it in time and effort the more you will get out of it.

I feel confident that my PRT96 will stand up against a Sabre 408 all day and will keep me very satisfied for several thousands less.

By the way ask Sallye about how much of a royal pain in the ass I was when I was going through the ordering process. I think they lost money on me with all my telephone calls before I even bought.

regards,
Dale Kerr

[Dan B. (Unregistered Guest)]

I have had my Bot for two weeks now. I can say my money was well spent. I couldn’t be happier but the machine does have 3 limits. Me, myself and I if I can’t program it and or don’t have the right software. The Bot can’t run it! Before you buy be honest with yourself. What are your limits!!!!!
Dan
P.S. Right now I can only program very basic parts But I plan on being very good someday.

[beacon14]

The machine is a tool, an instrument. If you buy a guitar because you have scheduled a concert and you have 2 weeks to learn how to play, you may have made a mistake. I have learned the hard way that it's best to try new technology (materials, techniques, etc.) in small ways, when you have the time and temperament to learn the nuances, before tackling a huge project with a deadline.
That said, we bought our machine to fill a large order for a new customer, and it was paid for with that first order. But we had the advantage that I was already CAD fluent, and my partner had plenty of time to assemble the machine while I learned how to program it. The two of us spent the better part of a month tweaking the machine, the product we were building, and our machining techniques.
Everything that went wrong was traceable to one of two causes: my mistake or his mistake.

Can anyone learn to play the guitar given enough time and attention? I don't know, but certainly some can pick one up and play well in no time, others will struggle for years and never be very good. We must realize that the ShopBot is not going to work for everyone, no matter how hard we try to help. It's up to the individual to determine if they will be able to utilize the tool, and to try to get help when they need it. In the end, it will be a very small percentage that will end up "disgusted", and we shouldn't take it personally.

The ShopBot is an incredibly capable tool, and in the hands of a creative, patient, and intelligent operator it will work wonders. Add in a staff of unpaid consultants, always ready to try to help (this forum) and you have a powerful combination.

[harold_weber]

Kenn/Paco, I too felt very insecure about the software before I bought my ShopBot. There used to be access to a document on the ShopBot site by Mr. Neitzke. I don't see the access point any more, but you can get to it using the following address:

http://www.shopbottools.com/neitzke.htm

This document reads more like a book (20 pages), and is a little dated, but I think it is worth reading. The main message I got from it was that you should get free trial versions of all the software to experiment with and learn LONG BEFORE YOU ANTICIPATE BUYING A MACHINE.

I followed Neitzke's advice, and I had trouble getting different software packages to read each other's files. I found that even though I did not own the software, the tech support people at the software houses were very eager to help me (hoping to make a sale??), and together we got the problems sorted out. It turned out that there are many different versions of .dxf files, and I simply needed to buy a $15.00 shareware file converter to solve my problem.

So, my message is:

1. Make sure that the different software packages you plan to use will interface properly and

2. Get any problems sorted out BEFORE you buy the software packages.

I'm not so sure how my own experience would have gone if I had bought the hardware first and tried to learn the software in a hurry with a machine sitting idle in my shop...........

[ron brown]

It amazed me how involved CNC machining really is. In a large company, one unit handles setup of machinery, another or the same one keeps it running. A third section runs the files and a fourth and probably fifth actually do the CNC work and draw the things in CAD. In business any one of these positions can be a full time responsibility. And these folks are not spending your money. The actual "designer" may have started with a sketch or just an idea.

The ShopBot owner/operator is "All of the above". The money for software - or a needed repair part, comes from your own pocket. Many have a second greater authority watching that expenditure too. I have been informed this oversight person soemtimes thinks all income goes to the oversight committee of one and expenses are the operator's problem.

One may be a machinist, a boatbuilder, a cabinet maker, a CAD designer, good at CAM or can operate a tool. BUT, can he be all of that and a CEO, parent and the guy that sweeps the shop too? And, can he do it while the money is in short supply?

I am not trying to discourage folks from taking the big step into another world. I will state it can be overwhelming at times.

[kivimagi]

If someone does become frustrated, it seems like the shopbot holds its value relatively well. So you really only lose your time, not your money.

Anyone disagree with that?

[garbob]

Great UNFOUNDED Expectations!

I had them and I suspect that there are many out there that have them. I don't mean exitement about buying something that you understand the workings of, that's one thing. No I mean the unfounded naive faith that this machine will change your life (for the better) and even though you are not mechanical or know anything about drafting or engineering you will be able to "hit a couple of buttons" and out will spit finished parts that will turn you into an overnight sensation and a wealthy shop owner.

The Shopbot changed my life, it made me nuts for a couple of years! My wife will never believe me about an investment in technology again! I believed a friend who was mechanical and who would "put it all together" for me. Well, he got busy and I got frustrated. "How come these flat, shiny metal bars have a mouth at one end and a loop at the other"? I asked. I knew nothing and was very frustrated for a very long time. I should never have bought the machine without a mechanical, hands on partner.

Since then I have tried and purchased several software packages, very disappointing, but because I can't handle the low level drudgery that most other hands on people can, I have no choice but to use these.

I can certainly emphasize with the originator of this thread, but I wouldn't change anything if I could. It has been a profound learning experience and for the first time in 4 years I am finally getting to the point that I have the confidence to go out and sell myself and the service and people are just eating it up. They can't believe what can be done and for so little cost on this machine.

My last 2 cents worth is this. I think that Shopbot did a great service to their future customers by getting rid of that HORRID, AWFUL, IMPOSSIBLE TO LEARN ***********V E C T O R*********. ECHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Gary

[jkforney]

Gary
Vector like the shopbot is simply a tool. It is not impossible to learn, it is just that you didn't. That doesn't make it bad. As I recall, you felt that even trying to help people with Vector was ruining the forum. Your last sentance is worth exactly what you say, 2 cents. However, I am delighted that you use the shopbot and have found it worthwhile.

As far as "the disgrunteled owner", I have limited patience with his type. In the 32 years I have been doing woodworking, I have met many who bad mouth their tools. Tools are only as good as the craftsman. He should sell or call ShopBot directly.

John Forney

[gerald_d]

I can't figure out where this thread is supposed to be going, or what it is setting out to achieve. It is creating more heat than light.

And I have to strongly disagree with Gary on his view of Vector, even though I don't even know why I feel obliged to defend Vector in the context of this thread.

[erik_f]

I have e-mailed the "disgruntled owner" and we have exchanged a couple of times. I will try and be delicate here. He told me, he hasn't checked the forum in a week, and he has no use for it, but does plan to "embarass" shopbot by posting more of the same. After the last e-mail I was a little bothered by his demeanor...but I remembered what a wise man once told me..."its just cruel to challenge a man with no legs to a foot race". As for illusions of automated bliss...yeah, I guess I can admitt to have 1 or 2 of those...The real problem with the ShopBot is...Once it gave me the ability to make and design the more complex projects I'd been dreaming of...I did. So as far as being able to things faster...well, if I was making the same old things I used with regular shop tools I suppose it would be, but since my designs have become so much more advanced...it takes me about the same amount of time as it used to...but now things are just WAY cooler and I can charge more....Hmmmmm.

Erik

[charles48]

The measure of a man is what he does when he does not know what to do.

[mikeb]

sure would be nice to see this thread die!!

[robtown]

Keep it going, the longer it goes on, the less credibility our aggrieved friend has... and the more we all see that it's an isolated incident (if it truly is an "incident"...)

As well, discourse is a healthy thing.

[K. Simmerer (Unregistered Guest)]

A man who allows himself to be totally blinded by frustration will never see the light.

I add my name to the 100% satisfied list in the hopes that it will allow this person to look inward and achieve the serenity that he needs to open his eyes. It is better to see the path before you, than to tumble from the path cursing and bleeding as you carreen from rock to tree only to lay broken and fetal far from the path. Do not curse your well intention rescuers, for they have been down this path and have the strength to guide you. We have marked our trail so that others may follow and not run blindly through thorn ridden thickets and bee swarmed fields. REACH UP YOUR ARMS! We will drag you back to the path, possibly kicking and screaming at first, filled with threats of blasphemy and litigation. We will show you the true meanings of Windows and DOS. We will guide you to the light of Unit Values and DXF conversions, break you of the temptations of high speeds and lost steps. Do NOT show disdain, for ours is the only true path to economical toolpathing!!! We shout it from the highest peaks... SHOPBOT, OH SHOPBOT!!!

[K. Simmerer (Unregistered Guest)]

To the tune of the "The Beverly Hillbillies"

There was and old man and his name was Jed,
Poor woodworker barely kept his family fed.
Then one day he was looking at some tools,
and up popped a ShopBot made him look like a fool!

Why it cut out parts fasterna' dog running rabbits,
Now he's done broke all his wood whittln, habbits,
Granny ran out and bought them all some food,
Cause Uncle Jed's woodwork, is no longer crude..

Well, the first thing you know ole Jed's a millionair,
Kin folk said "Jed's sitting in his chair"
Said "ShopBot's runnin' and it's making lots of dust"
"His hand tools and saws are all gone to rust!"
Corosion that is.. Oxidation.. Deterioration.

Well he doesn't use a jigsaw to cut out a letter,
All his customers say "Ole Jed's getting better"
His stuffs cut straight and he's getting work dun,
Fastern' Jethro runnin from Granny an her gun..

Sorry,
Someone kill this thread before I write again.

[rookie432]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Keep on writin. I loved it.

Bill

[srwtlc]

Doh! Thanks for puttin' a tune in my head for the rest of the day!

[dands50@hotmail.com]

To all that care:
Hi everyone OL David in Wyoming here just had to put my two cents in, (Robert)What cnc manufacturer do you work for? Kenn and Paco, do you have a clue at all about cnc control software ? I no longer own my Bot ONLY because I went on a long jurney and am now getting ready to buy a new one, (Robert WHAT IS THE PRICE,I WILL PAY IT)

AS TO THE ISSUE of the software:NO CAM software will CREATE 3D but they will generate the code for the machine to follow the the design created in a 3D CAD program, Shopbots software (the CAM opperating program) will follow any Cad produced 2D or 3D image.

And as far as the DXF and G code converter that is in the program you cannot get any better at any price. That is not only my feelings but also the feeling of many sales reps of High dollar CAD programs Just call and ask any of them HELL with that they don't even need to post a shopbot driver in the software package. any way just my two cents. Dave