Worlds largest CNC capacity?

[jhicks]

If indeed my suspicion is correct and the notes posted on the Chinese Router thread were to stay on topic, I wonder if we can take the best of the forum and shop botters capabilities to address the business issues many of us have through an organized effort and community of like minded botters.
I note that the earlier thread was rapidly becoming one of the most active threads and represented many botters throughout the world with very interesting perspectives. I only started this to isolate the topic because I'm losing sleep thinking about the possibilities.
When I think of all the collective resources and capacity, put my business hat on, and consider the possibilities for 300+ botters in a coordinated procurement, sales, marketing, design, and development consortium, it blows my mind.
One example for your consideration. IF each botter spends $1000.00 per year on cutting bits the market opportunity for tool/bit suppliers is $300,000.00+++. Nice leverage and its only the tip of the iceberg!
IF it was possible (and it is) to have one file for one part cut on/by 50 separate machines/botters around the globe to offer a truly "on continent/regionalized" supply chain to an OEM, would they be interested? I think yes.
IF it was possible to offer a "corporate entity" a service to supply their signs globally in the same manner would they be interested? Starbucks anyone?
If you are interested in this broad brush concept please read the pertinent input under the CHINESE router thread and add to the thought process with your comments positive and negative to help me get this thought in or out of my head.
Would attempting such a challenge be a suitable topic for camps and Jamboree? A test case to run the same file, same material, same bit etc worth while?
It would require organization and support at the factory level and shop bot would need to see the benefits as well but, how would you like a web service that lists you and your services under a corporate or GROUP banner so potential customers could find their "local source". If 300 botters each contributed $100.00, thats a $30,000.00 advertising and web site budget. HMMM
Think about it. Am I crazy or is this a worthy idea? your thoughts are appreciated.

[mikejohn]

Jerry
Staying firmly on topic, there seems opportunities of formal co-operation and informal.
Certainly a pool of commercial projects would be useful, but needs some thinking on organisation.
One method woud be to post the outline of a project, which might be exchanged for other projects, The two get together, swap all the project details, and then market them in their own area. Or how about pucking up business then going to the project members to come up withthe best way of carrying out the project, everyone chipping in there parts. The AutoCad guys, or Rhino guys producing the greatest .dxf files, CAM guys doing there magic. Finishing guys (painting, carving) putting in their share. Then each contributor gets the chance to use the plans.
Someone could offer a complete project, plans method of construction and finishing, and charge a % fee, but I feel this would be hard to supervise.
Nothing to stop someone paying the first % fee, then making another 50 and saying nothing.
Theres also the possibility of projects beeing offered to a library, particularly by someone who has created such a product but has no interest in making it commercial.
As far as a buying group is concerned, if this means I cam buy from the USA, at discounted USA prices, and only pay the shipping fee, count me in!!
If this thread stays on track, everybody throws in ideas, however far fetched, we thrash them around, then maybe a concrete plan will come to fruition.
...................Mike

[richards]

Forming a CO-OP buying group might lead to lower prices - but someone is going to have to spend a lot of time managing the CO-OP. I would think that vendors would only want to deal with a single buyer, even if that buyer represented hundreds or thousands of individuals. To me that means that a legal business entity (CO-OP) has to be created. Members of that CO-OP (us shopbotters) would need to buy our products via the CO-OP, meaning that we would probably have to pre-pay the CO-OP for purchases and then have the purchase drop-shipped to our shop. For a CO-OP to be practical, vendors would have to discount their prices sufficiently so that members of the CO-OP would buy the products - after paying the CO-OP a percentage or fixed rate per order for handling the paper work. After all, running the CO-OP would be a lot of fun - for the first ten minutes. After that, it would just be work.

[jhicks]

Mike, you are indeed correct, work is involved but typically the restrictions you describe are not required except the legal and organization part. Generally in other industries, the members have the right and option to buy from member sources but no requirements to do so. Its simply a decision and choice whereby the prime supplier provides products and incentives but in no way are members obligated if that particular source is not useful or competitive.
The true question is do the benefits outweigh the efforts. Based on the fact that these groups exist and operate in many similar networked businesses the concept is already in place and some businesses find it useful or they would cease to exist.Probably don't need to reinvent the wheel here but use what is already in place and operating by others with modifications as required.
Think of it like Insurance groups. Pool the group as a customer base, negotiate a group discount, and OFFER it to those who choose to participate.
Maybe insurance would be a good benefit to have for the many small independants with bots too.
Unfortunately, work and organization would be necessary. There is no free lunch.
Beyond the buying aspect there are many other areas where the sum would be greater then the parts for marketing etc.

[gene_marshall]

Good stuff.
I think the most worthy part is the collective buying this group could do.
Even offering a "Material sponsorship" or something.
Where a shopbotter could go to a site or link and purchase from a supplier that would offer a discount to botters who found him from that link.

That way it would be easy for us all to find him and him to track where the sale came from.

This could work with material, bits, glue and paint etc.Most shipable (?) products.

I beleive that is more viable than sharing work.
Most shops covet their clients, as well as being secretive about pricing schemes. and those prices would vary across the country anyway.
Whereas the purchasing end is more about the collective making purchases that translate to bulk sales for any supplier.

As I said, Good stuff
Gene

[Brady Watson]

This idea is very similar to Thermwood's eCabinet Systems Co-Op that they have in place right now. The software generates code for their CNCs, and then you have the option to order materials and parts through their 'Co-Op' to take advantage of lower pricing.

Using the CNC capacity of ShopBot's around the world *could* work for high-volume production...but there are a number of things that would need to be arranged for it to work economically. Yes it could save on shipping...but you would have to really coordinate where the closest botter was, if he was reliable as far as getting the work done on time and other issues.

A large buyer's group would make a LOT of sense for ALL of us if we focused on a place that sells bits for instance. It's a win-win for everyone, and probably makes the most sense to start with bits...since we all use them!

-Brady

[jhicks]

On the bit subject, I think Shopbot is a distributor of Onsrud but I dont buy from them. Why? Because a local Onsrud distributor already gives me 20% discount off list and I have them the next day. Keep in mind I only buy 2 or 3 at a time whereas others buy in lots of 50 or more. So the question is, IF the "group" was to work with Onsrud (just as an example) and Shop Bot was to cooperate and help drag Onsrud along, what could be negotiated? 35%? Theres only so much suppliers and distributors can give BUT if Shop Bot or another distributor were to desire the collective Botters business, they would then gain more leverage with their supplier and drive their costs down also.

[bleeth]

A close price comparison of many of Thermwoods products a while back led me to the discovery that my local jobber sold them for the same or lesser pricing without having to factor in additional shipping costs and time waiting for products to be shipped. Many of their tools and equipment were offered for less from such difficult to find retailers such as Amazon! Pricing on Hafele vended hardware was the same as purchasing direct from Hafele. I've even seen Jet/Powermatic selling their own tools cheaper. I'm not taking anything away from Ken as a master of marketing but his intent in "giving" away e-cab, etc. is the development of Thermwood customers.
The idea of a product manufacturers co-op widespread geographically is an interesting concept but the logistics seem horrendous. What would be the solutions for variations in raw material, personal skill, verifiable output, etc? There are several online artisan galleries that function as a clearing house for different craftsman offering their specialties and since all purchasing goes through the site it is well controlled. I have not, however, spoken directly to any of the craftsmen direct to determine if their membership was actually benefitting them.

[gerald_d]

The Russians had these production co-ops (socialism/communism?) and we need to think why that didn't work before re-inventing the wheel.

Edited to add:
In my attempt to answer my own question, came across this webpage: The Co-op Story (http://www.iacoops.org/coops.htm)

[rhfurniture]

I can buy bits cheaper over the internet than from any other source at present, and they arrive the next day. I think it would be very hard work for anyone to set up a system that could beat that on time or price.
I always remember a radio conversation with the guy that started some internet search engine, who reckoned that the whole nature of business was going to change. With the passage of time, (and the rise of the internet) big business was going to become a thing of the past, and we were heading for an efficient small business direct to individial customer model, cutting out all middlemen and much bureacracy. It is hard to see that from where things stand at present, but I think things will change.
In order to buy big as a group, stockholding will be necessary, and stockholding as a business model is fast dying. And who says we all use the same cutters anyway (any takers for KWO out there?)

R.

[gene_marshall]

I don't think anyone is trying to incorporate botters into the grand socialist sceme...At least not out loud. ( although this thread did start out talking about chinese CNC's Hmmm...)
I think a basic start would be to (maybe)Approach some companies and see how they would veiw the deal.

To make it worth our while as botters we would have to get a good discount
additionally the supplier ,by offering a good discount, would attract botters.
Keep it simple
As Dave said( I'll paraphrase) thermwood's try seemed not to be a good enough discount on purchases and geared more towards the cabinet guys.
The software is cool but Price will always be the determining factor of the sale.

This could work if it isn't overcomplicated

And i guess socialism looks good on paper... at least till you realise that there is no point in trying to get ahead.(My humble capitalist opinion)

[richards]

Perhaps the most simple approach would be to contact a few vendors and see if they would like to be added to a "vendor's list" on a trial basis. They could issue a promo code and a discount percentage off their normal prices for a limited time. Those of us who were interested in buying from them would order directly from the vendor, and, using their promo code, would received a discount. If enough of us purchased from those vendors so that our combined purchasing volume made up for the discount offered, they would be happy and we would be happy.

[gerald_d]

Should "co-operating" vendors be given ad space on this Forum? It would make sense to boost the number of Botters buying from the vendor to get the "volume" pricing. (The Russians didn't believe in advertising)

[bleeth]

Gerald: A large resounding NO. However they may be enticed by having limited for their own use only members e-mail list with an opt out option for direct marketing.
As far as this forum goes, see it as a sharing of information and assistance and not a direct marketing device. I believe you can search out threads where you made this very same point when you felt someone was overselling their own wares.

[jhicks]

Just a note on a recent development. I have been working with Color Core and GE polymer shapes in an effort to get some local midwest stock. I alone may not warrant it but there are 2 or 3 other botters who want to use but don't wan't or need the full sheet/pallet at this point. By continuing to communicate and be somewhat of a thin thread of coordination, GE called me today and indicated they were just about ready to make a trial inventory decision and were trying to decide about offering cut sheet sizes maybe in 2'X 2' and/or 4'x4' and which colors to stock.
I guess the point is that material suppliers and distributors do want business and any reasonable proposal that will justify their business decision to add inventory or extend a value added service is what they are looking for. Its what they are in business for.
Through a properly organized effort and enough potential customers in a group, there is an open ear and opportunities to improve supply lines, services, and costs.
So for those who have been trying to find partial sheets of color core in a UPS shippable size, GE is close to bring stock in so anyone calling Mr. Matt Liska at 630-428-4350 x225
will be met with a positive reception and I'm sure he will be glad to use your inut on colors or needs to help him bring in the 1st trial order of multiple sheets and colors.
Small result from a small group and about 90 days of discussion developing a supplier relationship.
More numbers = more negotiating power

[btk]

Jerry,

I think that a "social system" that might pay off may be shared advertising costs amongst similar but geographcially distrubted companies.

For Example:
(1) Create a website called "CarvedSignMakers.com" (or some variation that is not reserved)
(2) solicit members from this forum who would pay monthly/yearly membership to be listed on the site (have some sort of accrediation). List by Zip, Country, etc.
(3) Buy keywords on Google.
(4) Sell advertising on the site also to help costs.

Edited to Add: Perhaps the moderator/organizer does not have to pay.

Brian

[bobstand]

Jerry, I am on board with your thinking about ShopBot owners pooling to leverage purchases from suppliers. In my previous life with a large manufacturing company, it was my job to make presentations to co-op groups. I think I have a little insight on both sides of the equation. There is the consumer that wants a better deal and the supplier who wants more business. No problem, right? Well maybe, maybe not. What is in it for the supplier (manufacturer)? Will this added sale be plus business or will it just dilute their profit margin from business they might feel they already have? For example take the example of Onsrude that was mentioned earlier. They have a business plan built on a distributor (ShopBot / etc) program as their channel of distribution. I don’t think that their distributors would be very happy with Onsrude if they were selling to “their customer”. Now don’t take this as a negative. The concept is a good one and should be pursued. We just need to be sensitive to the marketing plans of the companies that we solicit and present them with a solution that will add to their bottom line. If they do not want us as a group maybe they would be willing to work something out with one of their accounts. ShopBot would never know because they don’t read the forum. Right?
I am sure that they’re a lot of companies that would like to have 300 plus new accounts. We do not need to have central buying, maintain inventories. These companies can recognize us as a viable buying group and sell and ship to us direct. The real strength will come from a ShopBot group that takes advantage of the programs that we find as a group and purchases from the preferred vendors.
The group could provide other services like Advertising, Internet Page/ShopBot shop locator, file sharing, and educational presentation from preferred vendors at ShopBot owners meetings etc. The list could be a little something for every member. No group will have the perfect solution for every member, however, I think that you thinking are viable and worth pursuing.
How many people is they’re that would be willing to work on coming up with a basic plan for the organization. We need a facilitator that will put together all the ideas and “story-board “them for open discussion so we can come up with a business plan. I would like to see more thoughts on this subject here on the forum, but if someone is interested and does not feel comfortable with posting on the forum maybe they would like to e-mail you Jerry or e-mail me. Or maybe someone will volunteer to be a gathering spot for ideas.
Jerry, just remember that most if not all organizations like Rotary, Kiwanis, etc you have member but only 5 % + or - do the work. No matter how you cut it, we need members to make this work. So if anyone like myself is interested, don’t be hesitant to step up and say so.
Just my two cents worth. Go Botters!

[gerald_d]

"I am sure that there are a lot of companies that would like to have 300 plus new accounts. We do not need to have central buying, maintain inventories. These companies can recognize us as a viable buying group and sell and ship to us direct." Not when they have to ship 2 cutters each to 300 addresses, process 300 payments, field 100 phone calls. It is probably much easier for the vendor to get 3 more hardware stores to buy from him, rather than 300 small-consumer ShopBotters.

It would help the vendor if his product becomes endorsed by a reputable user group. In other words, if he can add to his website (or brochures) "Endorsed by ShopBotters" and if the wider market saw "ShopBotters" as a savvy group.

Being realistic, I see this purely as an USAmerican/Canadian co-op thing, so please excuse me if I sound a little negative/jealous of it.

[marshawk]

We could set up individual distributerships for drop shipments. Each of us contacts an individual company with the groups demographics and gets the distributer pricing for their product line. A catalog can be put up on the web showing who distributes what. The individual Shopbotters then handle all orders for "their" company and passes along the product at the distributer pricing. (a small markup may be necessary to cover any expense incurred).

In theory, the savings from all discounted pricing will be payment for services rendered by the individual Shopbotter.

The problem is finding a manufacturer who will allow drop shipping.

There will have to be a central cooordinator who will handle the web page and any organizational funding needed. This can be either a volunteer or we can vote on the candidates.

The thing is, you never know what will happen if you don't ask. I suggest that we compilate all of our businesses information and start finding out what business would be interested and what they have to offer.

Asking is free.

Chip

[bobstand]

Gerald, as I said in my post, a co-op may not be good for all vendors. Many would take a view like you suggest and say why not just sell to 3 more hardware stores. That of course would be their choice and they would make that decision based on their business model. However, in my experience working here in the “USAmerican/Canadian” market place, I have seen thousands of companies spend thousands and thousands of dollars at trade shows to promote their products. The next time you attend a trade show ask an exhibitor how much they spent on booth space, freight in/out, travel expense, hotel cost, food etc. If you don’t already know you will be shocked at what it costs to promote their products. One of the first questions these vendors hear from those 3 hardware stores is, “what is your minimum order”? You would be surprised at how low they have to go just to get the ink to start flowing on their order pads. The real strength of group power is when we could “truthfully” say to a vendor that our group spent $$$,$$$.00 with just two or three preferred vendors last year through a ShopBotters group sponsored co-op program. It is this kind of strength that could get us to: "Endorsed by ShopBotters" and if the wider market saw "ShopBotters" as a savvy group.
Thanks for your comments and if this gets to a “story-board” stage, we will add your comments for open discussion. It is a start, so let’s keep the thinking open.

[gerald_d]

Bob, I once rented a booth at a trade fair in Germany, and shipped a container load of product there and back. The week there cost me the same price as what I paid to purchase my 3000ft2 workshop (ground included) over here!

[mikejohn]

In my mind this is a different question than the one first mooted.
Bulk organised buying may well work for a localised market like North America.
Some type of marketing of products made using the ShopBot just might possibly bring in extra profit far bigger than any savings in bulk buying.
Imagine a "library" of commercial projects. Each project would be on a scale (1 - 100) or whatever.
You upload a project, its graded with a number (presumably is 'value').
You can down load other projects up to the value of your uploads.
The 'owner' of the project would possibly have to restrict downloads of their project to ensure there isn't a glut in any one geographic area.

Looking at Gerald's expenses. Maybe projects could be devised in one area, and then collectively exhibited with shared expenses.

All things are not necessarily suited for this.
I would happily give away plans of my rocking horses, because commercially the attraction is in the hand carving and finishing, painting, saddlery etc.
The ShopBot is limited only to producing exact pieces to make up the blanks, and the stand.
Cabinets appear to be mainly ShopBot, so might be a more worthwhile project.
I feel we will kick these ideas around a long while before anything comes of it.
Alternatively, individuals could get together to form their own marketing group, or just 2 guys swapping projects.
On this subject, lets keep thinking.

..................Mike

[rhfurniture]

There is the distributed computing model, along the lines of seti and folding at home (stanford uni). It's a shame we can't bung mdf down the internet.

R.

[jhicks]

Its evident that the central theme of an "organized group" with shop Bots has many themes that could be followed. Purchasing, marketing, design and product sharing, internet advertising, training and consulting, outsourcing to other botters for unique capabilities, and regional or global fabrication units.

I love the input and ideas so at least I can now sleep knowing others feel this has some crediblility and potential.

Yes, all the issues, challenges, roadblocks, and potential benefits exist and one never knows where the next suprise benefit or roadblock could come from but I think there are unimaginable uses and benefits that will bubble up as the discussion continues.

The key is the dialog has begun,the audience is receptive, and the ideas are surfacing.
I personally love Brians idea of a marketing group and web site to get us as a unit on some "preferred search engines" but they all have potential.

After all; we would all buy more if we sold more. That includes Shop Bot IF they could make potential buyers aware that such an ORGANIZED effort and community existed for and by Botters specifically to expand their knowlege,leverage,sales and success with the world of Bot capabilities.

Just think of how valueable the Forum is in helping folks like us decide to buy a bot in the 1st place. Such a user group would be just another a complimentary piece of the puzzle to help sell more Bots.

It does sound a bit like the way Franchise operations work but the difference is we have already paid the entry price, still have our independance, and may CHOOSE to engage in what may benefit us the most or not.
A group of volunteers to start is one necessary step as Bob suggests to collect and sift through the top 10 list of viable and greatest interest areas.
I definately am on the volunteer list so for those of you interested in taking this beyond the idea stage, please indicate your willingness to be part of an exploratory committee to collect and collaborate on this topic.
Bot On Boys

[stickman]

You know I would enjoy the benefit of being able to buy materials and tooling at a lower cost, which I am sure everyone would. Me, being in central nebraska and a small community at that I drive 20 mintues to get any type of materials. I do have the ability to buy from a bigger company that has a local truck. And one day I will, when I can have the room to store the min purchase amount. I look to stock a couple MDFs, lightweight and heavy as well as maybe even Exteria. I also would like to have Oak Plywood and baltic birch on hand.

I am always looking at production spots as well. things that I can produce for local companies. Here in Nebraska they are far and few between, so many of my contract bids go to areas of large population. Many of which have a shopbotter closer to them, which I would be more than happy to send them to them for the needed "personal contact".

Anyhow, those are my thoughts at the moment. If I could buy and sell router bits cheap to the shopbot family I sure would think that would be helpful as well.

Jay

[andrewm]

I haven't been on in a while but found the thread on China and this one interesting. The questions posed and fears have been something I have gone over with an dealt with over the last year.

The idea of the coop won't work. Everyone is too spread out and the people selling the material and tools are already selling on a margin they need to make money. Unless all the Shopboters want to move into the same city, you won't get enough of a discount to justify the cost of managing a coop. Nice idea, but not realistic in real world.

Now the China problem.

A little background. I designed and prototyped all of our products on a Shopbot. We made our first run of them on a Shopbot PRT. I spent 6 months trying to sell our products. All were marked Made in the USA. I tried to make the numbers work for making them here. It just wouldn't work. No one really cared that they were made in the US. I don't care what came out of thier mouth, they voted with thier wallets. We could not sell our products for what people were willing to buy them for. (Remember we sell wholesale so we don't get the retail price.) In peoples mind, they have a price they are willing to buy things for. This price is set by what they can buy other similiar items for. (Supply and Demand) Many of these items made in China. Yes, you may be able to sell one or two, maybe four for a good price to high end clients. Not enough to build a business on unless your item is really expensive. It became clear that we either had to abandon the product ideas, or find a cheaper way to get them made.

I have spent over 6 weeks in China during the last year working very closely with a Chinese factory as they began making our products. During this time I got a lot of experience in working with Chinese made CNC machines, working with Chinese CNC reps who made these machines, and mostly Chinese managers and workers. I met a lot of Chinese worker and learned about thier lives. I learned a lot and many of my fears changed. The biggest thing is that they are not any different from us. They are good people.

One thing to note that is very important. We will end up employing a lot more Americans by having our product made in China than if we hadn't. Our empoyees won't be manufacturing, but will be shipping and sales. Instead of breathing in MDF dust they will be working on phones and computers. Jobs that would not exsist if we sold the small quantity of product we would have sold making them here. More people will also get to enjoy our products.

Spending time in China I noticed many things. Now I wasn't in anyplace that was on the tourist tour book mind you. I was in an industrial city where few Americans were. In fact I didn't see another non-asian face for 2 weeks. What I learned most is that China is changing. Rapidly! Almost every book I had read on China was already very outdated. Though the communist party may still control China, they are practicing capitalism big time and its changing them. The internet has connected them and opened them to world ideas as well.

China was and is a very poor country. People work for low wages because of supply and demand. (A capitalist concept.) There is a huge supply of Chinese. But, we are increasing the demand by sending work over there. The workers are now starting to ask for higher wages. The big city streets don't look any different than New York. There are signs for Coke, Motorola, McDonalds, and lots of other American brands all over. Just like Times Square. Chinese with money, and there are a lot of them, are wanting their cell phones, cars, DVDs, cable TV and all those thing that we want. The average worker sees these things and wants them too. Most of the people working in the factory are young and want a better life. They see the American dream in China! Thier next job they will get paid more. And there are unions. Remember communism is unions at the highest form. Power to labor. Don't think they have a lead because we have unions. I listened as the factory director compained he was having a hard time getting labor.

When I was a kid, everyone complained about Japan. Now you can't manufacture in Japan. Only high tech things that demand special skills get made there. It cost too much. China is changing rapidly and already jobs are moving from China to Vientam and India because its cheaper there.

Here is the point. I heard my parents generation all talking doom because of Japan. "There weren't going to be jobs in America, they would all be in Japan! You kids would be jobless!" Well, the unemployment rate in the US isn't any higher and the vast majority of Americans have a much higher quality of life than did our parents. I bet everyone here has a car, a microwave oven, a fridge, a TV, a computer, a DVD player, and will be gorging yourself on food over the holidays. The point, the doom never happened.

The Shopbot is an excellent product. As long as they keep being inovative they will be competitive. Its thier ideas and service that make them strong, not the metal they deliver. The Chinese CNC machine was better than my PRT. But the PRT Alpha was a lot better than the Chinese CNC machine. Inovation. As Shopboters the same is true. If you don't use your Shopbot to make a specialized product better than someone else, and keep being innovative, you won't be in business. Find the niche. Manufacturing will never totally go away in the US.

A final note: Human rights are getting a lot more attention and are getting better in China as thier economic condition changes. It has also always been true that the best way to keep a peace between two countries is to engage in business. China needs us to be strong more than we need them to be. They need us to buy the products they make or they are doomed.

[mikejohn]

Andrew
Thank you for that.
A great insight into the situation.
In particular i liked your point that loss of manufacturing jobs doesn't necessarily mean an overall loss of jobs.

................Mike

[rustnrot]

Andrew, great insight and information. The old adage if you can't beat 'em join 'em rings true. How did you "get" to China? In other words, had you experience there of any kind (know somebody, know the language, etc) or did you, to put it very simply, Google China, make contacts over the internet and then fly there Cold Turkey?

[jhicks]

Andrew, well stated and a realistic overview. Change is the one constant and an economic reality in any market. Improved web communications definately makes it easier and more competitive. Especially for repetitive volume products at the lowest overall cost in a global marketplace. Money has no conscience.

I respect your opinion but can't agree that "IT won't work" as these types of organized groups are at work every day in many industries in many ways. Perhaps its how one defines IT in their own mind or what they have experienced in such a model. Or, as Mr. Clinton says; "It depends on what the definition of Is, Is".

As Ralph/RH and others indicate above and in the map thread Gerald has accomplished. A joint web site for potential buyers to find a local ShopBot CNC source would in itself be a great benefit and selling tool.A map to locate them would only make the process more friendly and help potential customers make the initial contact.

An organized effort to advertise and get ones name on the net to expose whatever their niche products and services are would certainly be superior and more cost effective for all. Even my free listings work and help folks find us but don't have the sizzle of a well constructed and highly ranked professional web site.
The membership site "signsearch.com" is just such a site. It happens to focus on sign businesses but they charge $125.00 for a listing within 25 miles of ones zip code. We have received at least 6 orders from that listing we probably would never have seen otherwise and there are thousands of sign companies listed there. Orders and profits worth many many times over the subscription fee. Not to mention the word of mouth from those customers who found us there.

Innovation isn't limited to products. As long as we are serving unique local customers with niche products and unique capabilities; we need to also innovate in sales and marketing as you point out.

And where do people look 1st to find that unique widget? Its not the yellow pages anymore.

You are right on point with.. "If you don't keep innovating, you won't be in business. The question at hand is, Can a group be more effective than the individual with some or any of the topics mentioned?
Letting people know you are in business and what you do is really more important than making cool stuff and if a group can be more cost effective with that, why not?.

[mikejohn]

Maybe a missing thread in this forum is one directed at marketing generally
..............Mike

[ted]

A few thoughts from ShopBot ...

On some of the big issues here: 1) group, co-op, or community purchasing; and 2) community project/file work.

1) We like the idea of the leverage and potential cost savings from group purchasing. But as has already been pointed out above, there are lots of issues and it seems to me that setting something up will not be as easy as we would all like it to be. Our own experience with selling cutters may be instructive.

Because Onsrud is well aware that ShopBot owners constitute one of their largest customer groups, they have been very willing to work with us. We thought that one service we could offer our customers would be to make it easy for them to get bits at good prices. But when we set up to sell cutters, we were immediately confronted by the problem of the wide variety of bits that ShopBotters wanted and the difficulty of purchasing this array at volumes that would make it possible to offer them at any kind of discount. Then there was the problem of maintaining the inventory and setting up an efficient enough order and shipping system to make it affordable (we were trying to get tools out the door, and bits became an incredible distraction). And, we felt like we couldn't do just two or three of the high volume bits, because people would not want to order one cutter from one place and all their other stuff from someplace else, just to save a small amount (and probably lose the the savings in the double shipping). Onsrud offered to work with us on a drop-shipping arrangement, which we tried for awhile. But to get the Onsrud order shipped, we had to do a lot of paperwork and follow-up, which was costing us more than the discount we were receiving as a distributor. Note also that When we were trying to do this, we never had the idea of making money, just of providing a service that did not cost us a lot. In the end, it seemed to be easier for everyone, just to send them to the Onsrud website.

In this day of internet sales, purchasing direct from the producers website may simply be the best solution for commodity type items like bits. Most of the added costs of retail distribution have already been stripped from costs of these products, there is pretty good price competition in the market, and for those purchasing domestically, the convenience is also pretty good.

One possibility I do see, though, is to perhaps leverage some sort web ad method to the advantage of the purchasing group or co-op. If, for example, a bit manufacturer/reseller thought that a particular group represented a big enough sales opportunity to advertise directly to it, it could purchase advertising on a site belonging to or related to the group. Purchases from the group would be made through a link from that site so that they could be identified by the seller. Rather than collecting an advertising or hit fee for the advertising on the site, the fees for the advertising could be credited by the seller to the purchasing group. Then, in some prorated manner, the purchases from the group would be discounted. Practically speaking, this would mean that a click on a sponsored link on the group site leading to a purchase, would result in a reduction in the cost of the particular purchase, by whatever the seller was willing to pay for advertising to sell the item. Such systems already exist, the difference here is that rather than an intermediary collecting a fee for managing the ad, the fee would go back to the purchasing group and the purchaser.

For items that are more specialized and for which there is convenience value to be able to get it when you want it, or in the format that you want it, there may be other possibilities. Actually, in this regard, Brady and I have been working on one that may or may not fly. To use that example, we have a lot of inquiries from people who want ultralight MDF or Trupan to use for their bleeder boards, but are not able to get it locally, or get it conveniently when they need it. Brady and I have been discussing a system where ShopBot would purchase pallets of Trupan, cut sheets to modular sizes appropriate for vacuum table layouts and for shipping UPS, probably also surface one side, countersink attachment holes, seal the edges, and have units ready for immediate shippment. We would also have modular plastic plenums that are pre-routed and ready to attach that would be shipped in the same way. Because of shipping costs, this material would probably cost a little more than if someone bought it locally. But we're thinking that most of the costs of prepping the material to make it ready for immediate use would be covered by the savings of bulk purchase and thus, it could end up being very practical for a shop that did not want to be distracted with the hassle of locating the material and getting it ready to use. (We'd be very interested in getting input on this particular idea ...)

2) On the question of making files available and sharing project material and resources. This is one that we have already put thought and resources into, and as many of you may know, have already made a rough prototype of a system. My own belief is that the amazing potential of CNC tools will not really be appreciated by people until there is more "content" available. That is, we've come to realize that the tough part about CNC is not making a machine that works well, but it is the difficulty of making it easy for people to 'create' or 'procure' the cutting files and production techniques that allow them to make things with CNC tools. This difficulty is probably not fully appreciated by the current crop of ShopBotters who themselves tend to be the creative types and early adopters of new technologies. But we see it as the key to increasing interest in CNC and, of course, the interest in ShopBots. Thus we want to help create a system that allows people to share their work in a way that rewards and encourages development efforts, which at the same time makes available lots of stuff for people to cut/make with their tools, or of interest to existing ShopBotters, to have a third party cut or produce for them.

We've created a site for CNC content with ShopBot ProjectWizard (www.shopbotprojectwizard.com (http://www.shopbotprojectwizard.com)). Admittedly, it is in it's infancy stage with very little content and much still to thrash out in terms of how it works. It is a place for providing/accessing two kinds of cutting files: 'Plans', which are straightforwarded, hard-coded files (like Bill Young's sawhorses or canoe) that are ready to cut, and 'Projects' which are parametric designs that users interact with in order to size and customize before generating cutting file code specific to their needs.

With 'Plans' the part files can be scaled at the tool using standard ShopBot features, but they are not really amenable to much customization because of the dependence on size and cutter diameter for the expected fits. Part files for 'Projects', on the other hand are fully customizable during the interactive design process on the web. We will use the ProjectWiz system to make all sorts of files available, but 'Projects' are what we believe will become the core of the system. Projects are key because people (whether ShopBotters, or others who have someone else cut the parts for them) want items made to their own particular needs and specifications. Whether it is a shelving unit, an end table, or a cabinet. Having an interactive but easy-to-utilize parametric designer readily available on the web allows people to get the files they need for a project exactly the way they want them. 'Projects' give people the experience of creating their own thing, their way, that they can then make on their tool or have someone make for them. 'Projects' get around competition with mass produced products. 'Project' files also automatically provide the developer/creator a degree of protection for their work (see why below). Our plan is that the ProjectWiz system should help maintain the distinctive reputation of each designer and enhance the value of their work, and provide a system for commentary and interaction between purchasers of a design and the developer.

Security for developers is a big issue for any such system. Ultimately, ShopBots themselves are very large dongles and we could certainly put a security system in place that, with interaction between the web and the ShopBot Control box can enforce an encryption scheme that would prevent easy abuse. But such a system would be cumbersome and beyond that, parts and shapes could always be copied with CNC digitization by the determined abuser.

For these reasons regarding security, we plan to start with education rather than encryption, making clear to purchasers what their license is and is not regarding the intellectual property represented by the design, and always keeping the idea of fair use in the forefront. Then, we will encourage developers to keep their prices low. When the price is appropriate, most people feel good about those who did the creative work and are willing to pay, and they are willing to play by the rules of a system that makes such work available to them. Similar approaches work with shareware, and with honor-system vegetable stands by the roadside. Sure, a few will cheat ... but they will not prevent the thing from working in a satisfactory way for the rest of us.

Parametric 'Projects' stand out as particularly appropriate for developer security in this business model. Because part files from 'Projects' will be highly customized and specific to a particular use, it makes the most cost effective sense to return to the system to purchase new variations, rather than try and figure out a way to modify the file and cheat. To understand this, take a look at Bill Young's "Boxmaker" system in the current ProjectWiz. Make a sample box (it's free) and download the files. Then, see if you can figure out how to chage the files to change the size of the box. It simply can't be done without dozens of hours of work, because of the complexity of the relationship between scaling and the fit and assembly of the project. If you, or perhpas your customer, needed a different size, it would be far less expensive to just log on and buy another size variation, assuming the project is priced reasonably.

Here's the status of things:

- The Project Wizard system exists today (www.shopbotprojectwizard.com (http://www.shopbotprojectwizard.com)).
- It will be a site with FREE 'PLAN' cutting files; and with 'PLAN' cutting files that will have modest charges
- It will be a site for FREE 'PROJECT' cutting files; and 'PROJECTS' for which you will pay
- There will be licenses for personal use, and reasonable schedules of fees for commercial use for PLANS and PROJECTS (including subscriptions)
- We encourage you to contribute PLANS to Project Wizard that you wish to provide free to other ShopBotters, or wish to charge for (we will help with developing the supporting instructions and documents)
- EVEN MORE, we encourage you to develop PROJECTS for Project Wizard and we will help you get the Project into the right form for interactive display in the system
- The system supports user comments on projects to help with production of the project as people get experience with it
- As we get more content and activity, we will explore making links with appropriate vendors (perhaps applying the group purchase strategy discussed above)
- If necessary, we will develop a data encryption system for use with the purchased part files
- ShopBot is willing to buy some of the content to help get the ball rolling (and help remove the concern about not being fairly compensated); we are currently working on buying more 3D carvings, and if you have other ideas for useful stuff or maybe something you would like to sell us, let us know.
- And, I should make clear, we will not post PLANS or PROJECTS unless they are definitive property (in design and tool pathing) of the party submitting them. Thus, this is not going to be the site to get a "Harley" logo cutting file.

Finally, just a quick FYI to Bob's smiley face above. Never fear ... several of us have been following this thread and find it highly interesting and especially enjoyed Andrew's recent addition on China. Please appreciate that, in general, we try to follow the forum closely, but for most issues and many questions we find that you ShopBotters out in the field provide just as good a reply as we might ... ususally with more insight, and always with more pizazz. (Plus, you wouldn't want me to go on like this too often.)

-Ted

[gerald_d]

I am battling with the concept of the "unique-ness" of ShopBotters. What should happen if I become a staunch member/contributor of/to a ShopBotters co-op and then 2 years down the line need to buy a high-capacity Komo and sell the ShopBot? Would I be automatically kicked out of the fraternity? I should hope not. (or, do I just keep quiet about the fact that I am achieving my amazing contribution to the co-op on something other than a SB?)

Already I think that the ShopBot's unique coding puts it a little too far outside of mainstream CNC that runs on G-Code. We can easily find staff with G-Code experience and thus, if we plan to expand the business to 3 or 4 CNC machines, common business sense tells us to not standardise on ShopBot.

Ted obviously has a vested interest in maintaining this "unique-ness" of ShopBot, but as a consumer, I see more limitations than advantages in identifying with the "ShopBotter" brand. Brady would say that I am playing devil's advocate - roast away folk, I'm off to bed.

[rhfurniture]

With reference to project wizard, please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to be a program that you install on your computer.
Now I, and I am sure most of us, have written (and continue to do so) interactive sbp routines to do little tasks on a repetative basis. These files are very personalised and geared up to my machine, but they would have been easier to do if I had access to similar files written by others for their machine. I would be quite happy to share what I have written, but do not think that it needs a "front end", just a listing, like you get for lsp files for autocad. In fact if I had to bomb proof them for general use, rather than just put a few specs and warnings in the header, I probably wouldn't bother - they are all work in progress anyway.
So howabout a freeware sbp exchange?
Perhaps it already exists on this site

[jhicks]

I note with interest on this Sunday afternoon that this thread plus the content in the Chinese CNC thread is among the most active and also receiving some of the longest commentary to express the complexity of this thought process. In addition I am pleased to see Ted weigh in with his thoughts and "general interest" in the power of it as applies to Shop Bot plans and actions to date.
Clearly the world of independent and "early adopters" in the existing forum community have more than a casual interest in deploying the combined resources of such a community for realistic or potential gains. Clearly much would need to be accomplished to organize such an effort with fruitful results.
That being said, the seeds are being planted and the audience is beginning to vote so with a bit of ORGANIZATION, there may be some hope but it has to begin with someone and something.
I'll rest easier tonight knowing we are all the same and we are all different. But we all have some things in common. Imagine the possibilities.
Bot on!

[ted]

I'm going to let Bill Young talk a bit more about Project Wizard here and explain how we see it developing.

But just one quick asside to Gerald: Our idea is to keep .SBP code interoperable with G-Code. They are really not that different and .SBP can be readily converted to standard G-Code with the converter in the software. It is very fast. If there is demand for specialized conversions to one of the many special types of G & M syntax variation, we will be happy to make allowances for that. From our point of view, the main thing about .SBP code is that it is easy for the person without CNC experience to read it, and it is much easier to program. That said, I don't want to distract from the themes of this thread.

To 'rh': The viewer or client side of Project Wizard does reside on the local PC, the content and programming comes from the web. It sounds like some of your files might be worth putting a little front-end on (ie. adapting them to ProjWiz) so that they would be real easy for people to use. For others, you might just want to post them as a .sbp template, with a little bit of instruction. ProjWiz is set up to do exactly this and then to allow for a little interaction to boot.

[bill.young]

Let me add a couple of things to Ted's posting..

- We believe that the Project Wizard system will be a great way for ShopBotters to shop for files to cut, but the big jump comes when it becomes a place that non-ShopBotters can go to select things that they want to have cut or to design their own custom Projects. It might be an odd-sized set of shelves, a house sign, or a set of cabinet doors with a particular 3d design carved into them...who knows? There could potentially be a system where the Project Wizard software would locate the closest ShopBotter to them using zip codes, or maybe present them with a list of ShopBotters that already cut that particular type of project and could cut and ship the parts. It's a great way for the "end user" to easily get a product that's customized to their needs, and for ShopBotters to get work from people who wouldn't have thought or known about them before.

It could also open up work for ShopBotters that don't have the design tools or skills for a particular kind of project...the files will be "cut-ready" when they get them. They could have their current customers use the Project Wizard to make their own design decisions, eliminating a lot of the non-productive time that we all spend going through "what-if" options with customers...they could try the "what-ifs" themselves.

- Although the price of a ShopBot makes it more likely to be a "multitasker" in a small shop, doing lots of different things and probably making better use of the Project Wizard, we've included an ShopBot to gcode convertor so that people that have tools that use gcode can still use the files.

- We're working hard on ways to make the parametric Projects easier to create. One development that's got potential is Microsoft's recent release of free versions of their Visual Studio 2005 development tools...the "Express" Tools. They offer a handful of programming languages with lots of online tutorials and books available, and have created a "Coding 4 fun" site to encourage and support them. We're currently evaluating the VB and C# Express tools to make sure that they'll be a good fit for Project Wizard development (as well as Virtual Tools and all sorts of custom ShopBot applications), and will try to have more info soon.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/
http://msdn.microsoft.com/coding4fun/

[bobstand]

Ted: I never doubted for a minuet that you don’t read the forum.
! Thanks for your input and suggestions. One of the nicest things about being a ShopBot owner is “ShopBotters are not left in the dark to find a solution”. As I mentioned earlier, the key to finding a successful program to help “ShopBotters” will be the willingness of us to take advantage of the (5% + -) people that work to help all in the group. I am willing to pitch in and help. Just let me know where to step in. Happy Holidays to ALL!

[mikejohn]

I would like to add a thought to one part of the Project wizard concept.
Most of us operating ShopBots create unique cutting files on a daily basis.
Somewhere in this forum is an idea I had for making boxes which turned out to be almost exactly the same as Bills.
If I, and I guess most others, see the concept of an idea, it is normally not a huge task to go away and recreate and adapt it for our use.
Games software companies invariably return unopened unsolicited game ideas. The reason is, in the past they have been accused of plagarism when something from such an unsolicited game appears in one of their games.
In fact there is a limited number of ideas, in the same way as there is a limited number of ways to create a box joint.
Trying to control a particular file is possible with a dongle, but the concepts are not protectable.
I am isolated geographically from most other ShopBot users. It is unlikely anything I make is going into the market place of 99% of all you other botters. But looking at the pins on Geralds map, I guess it isnt impossible to find 3 or 4 botters selling to the same community, so project sharing becomes a problem if you share your ideas with your immediate neighbours.
Going back to my original post in the "Chinese" thread, my intention was really to get us all looking closely at the market we are in, and then adjusting our thinking if need be to profit by it.
In most of these recent posts there is more than a hint of protectionism and cartel thinking.
Remember this however, you are not just competing with other Shopbottters, but all those other CNC owners.
It's expansion of thinking that is needed, open source plans and projects, and a sharing of marketing, production and design ideas.
Again Geralds Hot Bot site is a great source of ideas, as long as people post there alterations and improvements, don't simply read those other postings.
(and before you ask where mine is, I have a very standard bot apart from the router mounting bracket).
We have great strengths as a user group. Look back at the huge 3 part thread for constructing a table. A huge amount of input.
Look at the free cabinet/doors programs available.
As I said above, I would love to hear everyones marketing experiences, an area Im sure we all want to do better.
Gerald and I have no interest in your buying co-operative, we are too far away for it to make economical sense. If there was a suggestion for obtaining materials/tools etc which are easily availably in USA and shipping them over, I would love it.
If someone popped across the road for a couple of stick-on speakers, and popped them in the post, I would happily pay the $19 + $10 postage.

Then I could have a shot at a prize at the jamboree


...............Mike

[gerald_d]

Ted, when you mentioned dongles, security and encryption, I saw alarm bells about a situation similar to the E-Cabinets/Thermwood "clique". My concern is that a lot of recent comments give me the impression that folk want to develop a clique around being a "ShopBotter". I think that will discourage free-thinking, entrepreneurship and development.

[gerald_d]

My last was cross-posted with Mike - we seem to have the same breakfast session times.

[rhfurniture]

Bill and Ted,
Personally, I am not interested in learning VB or C+, but I do play with sbp files to make them work for me, and could do with a little help.
Is there any chance of an up to date list of system variables and recent commands (I am currently working with the 2003 doc). Also, as I have asked on another topic, the interpretation for the UX_dxf.ini file? I am trying to set it up to run automatically as a call out of Autocad.

ralph.

[bill.young]

Hey Ralph.

A current command reference and the current list of system variables are installed with the Windows software as PDF files in the Help folder..."C:\Program Files\ShopBot\ShopBot 3\Help" in a default install. There's also a listing of the math functions that you can use in a part file and a bunch of other useful documents.

An email to tech support should get an answer to your ini question...I think that's one of Gordon's projects.

Bill

[rhfurniture]

Thanks Bill.
I was still using 3.1.14, which has very scant docs.
Mind you the programmming handbook with the current software STILL shows cutter dia sysvar as #20 (very very confusing). I assume it has not been updated. Is there anything else that I should know about? (besides all the other new sysvars).
Also could you put the sysvars on the website and a current prog HB? (I have checked the www regularly for updates).
Thanks,

Ralph.

[bill.young]

Hey Ralph,

Let's move over to the Developers thread...

[marshawk]

Gerald, I think that this forum is open to anyone who comes across it already. Notice that you don't have to be a registered user to access the information contained herein.

Having said that, if you look right below the title at the top of this page, it says: "A forum for ShopBot® owners to exchange ideas and information"

I'm sure that there are forums for other machines users that are more specific to their machines.

Chip

[jhicks]

Going back to the China Thread and reflecting on this threads comments, I thought this site might provide some food for thought on a tool Chinese manufacturers utilize. Its known that Chinese have some learning to do on marketing and penetration of the USA to establish distribution but they definately have formed a common communication hub to funnel opportunities to/through across a diverse range of companies and products.

http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/HOMEPAGES/GSOL/GSHOME.jsp

Their statement under the corporate home page "alliance" section states...
We form powerful alliances to create more trade opportunities for our communities:

Agentrics Global Sources serves as Agentrics unique alliance partner in Asia and provides direct access to all Agentrics members to expand their sourcing activities in the region. We bring an unparalleled opportunity both to our supplier community and to Agentrics members to meet in the Global Sources platform and carry out commerce activities.

Agentrics LLC, formerly the WWRE, is the trusted solution and service provider for the global retail industry. Its solutions help retailers, manufacturers, and their trading partners reduce costs and improve efficiency by streamlining and automating sourcing, product design, and supply chain processes. With a secure hosted solution, comprehensive customer support, and extensive retail experience, Agentrics manages and simplifies the implementation process – realizing the value of technology investments.

Nothing terribly new here, just a vision, organization, and implementation.

Gerald, On the Clique note. I guess you could call any group a clique but there must be a common denominator(s) or its pointless to begin with. In this case its ShopBot and the potential for improving the lives and businesses of the owners in a productive organized manner. As Chip says it is an exchange for and about shop bot but If the other CNC manufacturers are tuning in, they too may see it as a viable idea for their community of users.
It is said that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

Merry Christmas

[gerald_d]

Let's consider who are likely to be the customers of this organized group, and then consider if they attach any significance to the group consisting entirely of ShopBotters. I believe that our potential customers are mostly looking for a CNC wood routing capability rather than someone that specifically owns a ShopBot.

Come to think of it, we already have the bare-bones of a co-op working here in Cape Town. When folk approach us for cutting plastic, we send them to a guy with a Multicam 3 miles away. He refers MDF and Plywood jobs to us. I do some of the g-coding for a guy with a Biesse - he has a great finishing/painting department and gives us a special price on that. Our neighbour (http://www.todwil.com/) has some huge SMC machines that are far too busy for small jobs, so we run some prototypes for them - in exchange they give us occasional use of their parking. And we talk to each other and tend to use similar cutting bits from the same supplier who realises that he is supplying a collective pool. Maybe not a a true "co-op", but it is practical, and the brand-name of our equipment is irrelevant.

[bobstand]

Gerald the customer is really more interested in who can do their job at the quality and price they are willing to pay. Are you suggesting that it is wrong for ShopBotters to band together in an (association or co-op or group) whatever it is called to establish a united effort to build brand recognition?

[gerald_d]

No, it is certainly not wrong for ShopBotters to build a brand. But, it will do very little in giving us immediate selling power. I am not trying to shoot down the idea, just wanting us to have realistic expectations. I think that right now we could do more for selling power if we focus on a more general CNC wood routing co-op rather than a specific ShopBot co-op. Building a ShopBotter brand will take a lot time, and I suggest it is built parallel to, and on the back of, a more general co-op that immediately makes sense to a customer for our services.

[mikejohn]

I don't really understand this.
Once a customer is holding in his hand an item made with a CNC machine, can anyone tell what machine it was made on?
Surely recognisable brands are built on the product or services themselves, not the machines on which they are made?
Or is the idea that a group that has already come together on this forum, promote their products together, irrespective of whether they are made on the ShopBot or whatever?
Such a brand promotion would presumably be offering the customer something in the way of quality or pricing, design or uniqueness.
How would you be able to control this?
Even a simple co-operative website might have items of the highest quality side-by-side with poorly made, mundane items which would not help a brand.
Or would the co-operative be selective, refusing entry to those who's products did not meet certain standards?
Who would decide this?
I still feel pooling of our ideas and projects, similar to many threads in this forum, is a more practical way to go.


..........................Mike

[jhicks]

What a wide world of ideas out there. Fantastic.
At its core, every "group" bands together for the common good or cause. Regardless weather they are the local charity, or a sophisticated global buying/marketing group. Such groups recognize they have more power to achieve their goals as a unit than as individuals. Generally anyone willing to contribute to the group goal and abide by the rules is welcome. When/if successful they continue to evolve, try new things,add, delete, or modify their methods or membership in persuit of their goal(s).

Shop Bot and this forum just happen to be the common denominator for such a group already. But Shop Bots goal is to sell and support machines and their users. And on that front, the FORUM does a Fantastic job! The question is; "Are there other/new methods that can be organized and agreed upon to further the OTHER GOALS of the users/members.

Not every scenario would be appropriate but at the top of the food chain would certainly be increasing sales and marketing awareness of what we each do no matter if it is on the Bot or other complimentary materials and methods.

I find that when I show folks products they gravitate towards the uniqueness of a "routed sign" as Gerald says or a added feature to a simple door casing trim piece. Perhaps a nicely routed personalized cutting board with their name on it, a hand crafted rocking horse, or a fireplace mantle are all essentially one of a kind pieces vs a production commodity available at Home depot.
Once they find us, the pitch is really focused on "what they want" as a custom piece not necessarily how its made or what its made with although often wood and CNC are key factors in their search. The WOW factor of photos and samples plus the personal meeting with the artist is an important part of the custom fabricators appeal and selling/buying experience. That in itself creates more value.

This piece was "made expressly for you" is a key part of the attraction for "non commodity/Custom" goods among folks who have the desire and $ to pay for it. Meeting the "artist who made it" is also part of the pieces story and attraction. And YES they are fascinated to learn its done on a CNC machine but really don't care who makes the machine. I don't refer people to the Shop Bot web site to see what it/we can do because thats not the right vehicle to help me sell them something. I would love to be on a site showing Mike's rocking horse and have someone ask "Can you make me one of those?" Because I know I could drop Mike a note and get help with plans, prices, or buy the plans to make one here in the US via the forum.

If I had to state the one goal of the type of group I envision it would be ... Leverage the WOW factor
"To increase sales through customer awareness of the unique capabilities and locations of the member shopbotters". Could other NON Bot folks join? Sure, why not: but the Bot and this forum is the "glue that binds us together"

With the vast amount of Talent within the shop Bot community, I can't help but wonder what would happen IF a group was established and posted a request for proposal in the forum business section to quote a web site and maintainence contract for a commercial site that would incorporate multiple companies/members products, photos, locations, capabilities, and contact details with quarterly updates and top listing on search engines.
Sure the forum already does that but its pointed at Bot Buyers, not buyers of what we make.
Not sure what the "key words or relevant content" criteria would be but that's what the web wizards figure out.

Of course once they find you you need some unique things to sell but as Mike says the collaboration and pooling of projects, plans and ideas would also be a natural extension and IS what the forum helps accomplish.
Anyone can buy tooling, learn how to use it and make things. The entry barrier to CNC is fairly low today so the key is to get buyers to find you and buy from you.
ShopBot and this forum is a "unique Community" among CNC equipment sellers and users. There is a vast difference between what a company buys a Thermwood machine for and what a Botter buys one for. Accordingly we serve vastly different markets with occasional overlaps but that $150,000.00 machine probably isn't stopping to run a sign, rocking horse, or cutting board for Grandma.
Have a Great day! Now I have to go try to find some customers and finish those personalized Christmas presents.

[richards]

One of the dangers that I see in promoting "This beautiful piece of art/crafts/furniture was produced using a Shopbot CNC Router" is the fact that all of us have differing abilities to design quality products. Most of the parts I design are still greatly inferior to items designed by others. In fact, I really feel good when I wouldn't be ashamed to give the piece to the local Deseret Industries (a type of thrift store where we donate our worn out clothes and furniture). Because of all the years I've spent programming computers, making the Shopbot 'do' something is not too difficult; however, designing something that has beauty, strength, and functionality will still take a while to learn.

Since there is no 'union' or 'guild' or 'association of shopbotters' that enforce minimum standards on the things that we produce, stating that 'This piece was produced on a Shopbot' could either produce the 'Wow' that we all like to hear, or it could produce the 'What a piece of junk' that I usually hear from the hidden microphones that are used to get someone's true impression.

[den73160]

Mike

Agreed that there is no 'association of shopbotters', and I haven't heard the 'What a piece of junk' comment yet (all I hear is I can make that). But everytime I cut something I learn something new that I can do, agreed it may need more practice to get it right but that goes with learning. If this community were to share in the buying of materials and/or jobs. Then, we all might, I say again might just be the better for it.

My two cents.

[gene_marshall]

Hey, who hasn't heard... "do it nice, do it twice"

[jhicks]

Fabricating a quality product and satisfying a customer /contract is a business imperitive.
I like Dennis, learn something on every project or everytime I run a file, or everytime I read the forum. But, when it comes down to designing or delivering a satisfactory product the "Buck Stops Here"
Figuring out how to make it is a nice problem to have. One which I wish I had more of.

That never happens IF one does not get the opportunity to quote in the first place.
Plus the forum does a fantastic job of helping us with the "tricks and tips" to make it happen already.I would love to turn over or refer a job to another qualified Botter rather than turn it away.

On Mike Johns earlier note, I agree that a specific "Marketing Section" would be an appropriate and useful addition to the forum.
Maybe that would help isolate common Sales/marketing issues and potential positive solutions over time.

Also appreciate BTK's comment about such a web alliance. Maybe there is a qualified web developer that would wish to take on such a project or chime in.

Its fun to BOT around ideas but converting ideas into action is "where the rubber meets the road".
Merry Christmas to all.

[andrewm]

One of the biggest advantages that Shopboters have is this forum. It is also one of Shopbot's biggest advantages. As I said before, I am not sure if as a group we would have much buying power, but as a group of minds working together it gives us a lot of power. Knowing I had a source of knowledge, I was a lot more inclined to say "I can do that" with the Shopbot.

If you buy any other CNC machine, you are on your own or rely only on your sales rep. Because of this forum, we can post problems and find solutions that makes the Shopbot a lot more powerfull.

I also have to say that Shopbot's attitude toward encouraging thier users to tinker with their machines and add to them has made the Shopbot CNC a lot more powerfull system than other CNC systems. As a group we have all come up with some innovative ways of using the Shopbot to solve problems.

[gene]

Andrew,
So right you are .I purchased an epilog laser and the last time i heard from the sales rep. Scott Jackson was when the 26000.00 check cleared.
The forum and the support from Scott,Grant,Frank and the rest of the shopbot crew is one of the main reason i purchased the bot.

[gus]

Ref. Andrew and gene.

I second that!