Stair Stingers

[Gary Campbell]

Hey Guys..
We are working on an open beam staircase made of Red Oak. It was a real pleasure to cut the stringers on the Bot vs. the old template & rout method. Very accurate. Here is a pic of the upper section stringer pair as they came of the router. They are 3" thick, 11.8 inches deep and almost 8' long.
Gary

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[cmagro]

Gary,
Being a stairbuilder myself I definitely know what you mean by "real pleasure". Thought you might be interested in the method I now use for my curved staircases. I wrote a program (in Vbasic) that creates all of the shopbot files needed to make the components I use to assemble my staircases. The creation of the files and the cutting of all components is done in less than a day. Assembly is super easy and can be done in the shop or in the field. I did this one in the field in less than a day by myself. I can specify stringer sizes (the bot cuts dados and rabbets along the underside of the step and riser where the stringer slides in). I started using this method for many reasons but the main one being that my clients rarely know which wood species they want to use until they decide on the flooring (which is not usually in the framing stages). They also aren't sure if they want paint grade skirts and risers at that time. I also use the bot to customize the shape of the steps so I am able to make adjustments to the project right up until it's time to finish it...a real good service to provide. Some pics attached and don't hesitate to contact me if you ever want to talk shop. By the way...went to your site...excellent work you do.
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[myxpykalix]

Christian,
Beautiful work! Where are you located? I would be interested in knowing how you go about designing the curves into your stairs? It is obviously dictated by the curve of the wall to some degree i'm confused about how you calculate the formula or is this done in some type of spreadsheet configuration?

[Gary Campbell]

Christian..
Thank you, I would love to "talk shop" with a person as accomlished as yourself. I envy your being able to specialize in only stairs. Our work (and the checkbook) dictates very diverse projects. Our last staircase was in '04 for a S. FL client, but located in Western NC. This one was designed by the client from an old magazine picture with his page of markups.

I too, visited your site and you do very nice work. I would be interested in more information on your methodology and the vB xover to .sbp For these "straight & simple" stairs we use an Excel spreadsheet with a few input boxes and then the manual chore of entering the plot points into VCPro for toolpathing. Kepp up the good work!
Gary

[3imoh]

Nice work!

Might as well throw these in too...pretty simple in comparison...I just had to radius the ends and pocket out for the metal brackets. The wall and center pipe varied slightly, so each one was a little different. They were 4" thick doug fir...I did it with a 1/2" dia 6" oal bit...was a worried about the bit length, but it worked out fine.

Gary, how did you end up doing the 3 inch cut...are those stringers red oak as well?

-Howie



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[Gary Campbell]

Howie..
I used .5 CED, 4.5 CEL, 6 OAL bit for the cutout. The glue ups were .25" oversize with 1/2 X 1 plywood splines. Even tho I was only taking off 1/4" at 1/4" stepdown, climb mill with .010 final pass, each pair of stringers totally dulled the bit. I need to research..still havnt figured out if it was heat from the climb mill or just the acid in the Oak.
Gary

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[cmagro]

Jack / Gary,

I began writing this very long explanation on my methodology and decided that I will email you guys off the forum with your approval.

My methods are not normal and in keeping with the norm. I do not use any outside programs at all. I use my bot like a true workhorse and it's more like a "normal" tool for me. My type of work requires me to design and build my parts as if I were using a table saw, shaper etc.

Keep the following in mind when I send write you about my methodology. My background is architecture and I fell into software development when I found out I had a huge knack for it. I ended up as a registered AutoDesk developer developing really cool things for AutoDesk and many architects. When you see a drawing on the screen I see the linework in it's code state (kinda like Neo when he finally understands the Matrix).

The way I do things is actually VERY simple and quick but a sort of "don't try this at home" thing. I hope you can pull a lot of the information I send you out and make use of it for your future projects.

And Gary,
It looks like I only specialize in staircases but I do a lot of other things. I just got the go-ahead to do a full-blown custom library in a home (next door to the stair project I posted). I do a LOT of custom mouldings (mainly hardwood) for my stair clients and a lot of times end up doing custom built-ins for them. If there is a custom piece next to one of my staircases I most likely did it.

I'm a one-man show (not including my bot Murphy of course) and thankfully seem to have created a niche that keeps me over-booked all year.

Time to work...or play, depending on how we botters look at things.

I'll contact you over the weekend.

Oh yeah...Howie....that's a real beauty...love that character on the treads.

[myxpykalix]

email me for sure! thanks

[bill_l]

I'm always wanting to learn something new as well. I'll take an email as well.

[handh]

Christian,

Please include me in your email. I always want to learn new things.

Thanks

[wberminio]

Count me in also

Thanks

[evan]

me too, please

[cmagro]

Once I get some general stuff together I'll send some info on my methodology to everyone that sent me an email so if you did not please send a quick note to cmagro@customonly.net (mailto:cmagro@customonly.net) (much easier than getting into everyone's profile to pull out addresses)

Bill Young has requested that I put something up on the wiki regarding this stuff so I'll do that too in a more professional form.

Hang in there for the stuff though...I have to hunt down some pictures or make new ones and get some screen shots etc. so my info looks like I absolutely maybe kinda sorta know what I'm doing.

Christian

[pappybaynes]

me also please!!

[cmagro]

To all who emailed me about sharing methodology info for curved staircase work...I just got the go-ahead on this curved staircase with curved level rail. I've been gathering info from past projects to share but since I did not really expect to be organizing an instruction type manual my pictures are scattered and don't really describe things well.

I've decided to use this project to organize a well laid out wiki with lots of pictures and detailed information from start to finish.
It will take more time to complete (they are just about to break ground in construction) but when finished will be much more informative and shopbotters will be able to get more out of it long term.

Along the way I will send personal emails to those of you that sent me your email address just so you don't have to wait until the project is complete but hang in there for that too since project has just begun.

Bill Young....I may need some help with the wiki as far as organizing the information so I may need to contact you about that.

Thanks for all of your interest..I'm looking forward to this.

Christian


1718

[handh]

Christian,

Thanks, I can't wait to see what you get done. I went to your website and noticed that you and I are not that far away from each other. Your work looks great. I work close to your area (Waxhaw, Wedington and down toward Rock Hill) all of the time, we do custom cabinetry.

Jeff

[scottcox]

Thanks in advance for sharing Christian. I look forward to seeing your work.

[dubliner]

Scott, whats your mail, mines in the profile - Neville

[zeykr]

Sounds great!

[bill.young]

Hey Christian,

I'll be glad to...just let me know what I can do.

Bill

[evan]

Looks like a fun project. Can't wait to see more.

[cmagro]

This project finally got off the ground just recently. I thought it had died but the builder is just a good 'ol carolina boy that likes to move slow.

Here are some pictures of a curved staircase assembly using my method. The Shopbot plays a huge role in accuracy and speed. The construction of my curved staircases is extremely sturdy because of it and has a lot of other advantages.

Photo above shows a disconnected step unit made up of a tread base, riser base and three wings that will provide the base for the stringers.


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Next three images show the step unit connecting to the previous step unit. Unit slips into slot, blocks inserted and unit secured.


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Next photo shows stringer core glued and clamped in place. This step makes the constructed flight one unit and very strong.


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Note that I use 3/4" OSB for step units. The stringer core is also OSB but planed down depending on how tight the curve is.

Here is the staircase core.


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Excess material is routed away and you are left with a complete staircase core ready to apply face materials.


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From this point stringer and riser face material is applied and staircase is ready to bring in the field.


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Some info to those who work with staircases.

This method is obviously different than how curved staircases are usually done. Usually the curved wall(s) are duplicated in a drum (at the shop) and the staircase is built against it. The framing is then removed.

I've worked with companies that do it this way and see a lot of problems with it. The main problem being the inability to make material changes or changes to the starting steps. They usually put in the staircase during the framing stages and no changes can be done.

Since much of my work is custom and I hate to say "no I can't do that" my method works very well. I always leave the first two steps out until the entire project is further along and the homeowner can better visualize the space (and style).

I have the treads already made for this project but will not put them in until sheetrock is complete. Yet another advantage...I won't have mechanical, electrical, plumbing, insulation and sheetrock guys messing up my treads. No amount of covering has proved effective (especially at the tread returns).

For the shopbotters:

The cutting of the components to make the step units was done with a software I created. The short version is this...I enter in various information parameters like deck to deck height, radius etc. and the program instantly creates all of the shopbot files ready to go. Once the components are cut and the step units made the assembly of a full flight is about one hour. Everything I just posted was started on Friday and field installation was on Sunday. I must say that most of that time was spent with the gluing and clamping.

Another note....

For the curved wall and balcony in the field...I provided the framers with the templates for which to build their walls. The staircase fits like a glove.

And again for those that work with staircases....

Because I provided the templates for the balcony I can make perfect nosing without having to make field templates later.

That's it for now...

I will post more on this project in a couple of weeks.

Christian

[john_l]

Excellent Christian

[Gary Campbell]

Christian..
Very nice! I like having the framers follow your templates instead of visa versa. Good job!
Gary

[earrington]

Christian you truly are a wizard!!

[br928]

Christian,

Why are the centers of the riser and tread area of the staircase core cut out? Is this just to save weight or is there some other reason.

[cmagro]

Stan,

The centers are cut out for accessibility and as a relief for the treads (like the back of baseboard). When I install the finish treads I need to access the back of the riser to secure it to the back of the tread. I'm also perfecting my system and for the times I build the entire staircase in the shop it would be nice to secure the treads from the underside..the openings would help me do that using brackets of some sort.

I would be happy to send you pictures of the entire process or even post them if other botters would like.

Sheetrock has just started...then hardwood flooring and then I'll get in there so it will be a few weeks.

Christian

[nyleeloise]

I am a pattern makerand need 3 1/2" depth/hieght on most of my work.Are there any pattern makers out there?? If so please tell me of your success in making core boxes with this machine. I also make log manifolds for 4 cyl engines would like to save some time and be more precise at the sme tine Comments please.Nyle reed

[cnc_works]

Nyle, I've made molds for thermoforming plastic 5" high, 9" wide and 48" long. Cut from a dense foam. Roughed with a long 1/2" ball nose and finished with 1/4" ball nose. Sorry I can't answer your need for info regarding core boxes, but I and, more importantly, my customer, were completely satisfied with the results.

Donn

Donn

[btk]

Nyle,
Once you add a vacuum plenum , 3-1/2" for a core box might be a bit of a stretch with a standard machine.
You have approx 8" clearance, subtract for substrates and vacuum, which leaves +/- 6" and then you still need clearance for the bit to move above the pattern/mould.
Also, depending on the detail required, long/thin bits are very fragile unless working in foam or other soft materials.

Brian

[cmagro]

Here are some final pics of the project I was posting some assembly info on.

Framing templates, curved nosing, curved level rail and treads all done on bot. Final field assembly was very easy since framework was done on bot..happy builder and happy clients.


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[Gary Campbell]

Christian...
Very nice work! You should be proud of a job well done. Thanks for posting.
Gary

[myxpykalix]

Man oh man...I knew you were talented and smart but did you have to go and prove it? Can I come and hang out with you? Very nice job!!

[brendan]

HI CHRISTIAN,
I AM NEW MEMBER WITH SHOPBOT,AND AM BUILDING STAIRCASES FOR 25 YRS OR SO,AND AM FASINATED WITH THE WAY YOU BUILD YOUR BEAUTIFUL CURVED STAIRS IN THIS FORUM.I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW HOW YOU WORK OUT THE STRINGERS/THREADS/ETC ON CAD.
YOU SAID YOU MADE YOUR OWN SOFTWARE POROGRAM
FOR THIS,AND I FOR ONE WOULD LOVE TO BUY IT OF
YOU,IF IT WAS FOR SALE.I USE A PROGRAM CALLED ALPHASTAIR(ALPHACAM) FOR ALL MY STRAIGHT STAIRS,
BUT HAVE BEEN LOOOKING FOR A WHILE,FOR SOFTWARE
FOR CURVED STAIRS.
ANY REPLY WOULD BE MUCH APPRECIATED,REGARDS BRENDAN

[gene]

Ditto on what Brendan said. I have a customer that wants a curved staircase something like the one you did but not as fancy. The handrails, were they split and reglued to get the curves to match the floor? i have done alot of straight staircases but no true curved ones.
Great work

[cmagro]

Brendan,

Working out the stringers, treads etc. is done by just drawing it correctly with CAD. Once the radius and the field dimensions are known then it's just a matter of designing the staircase. My program doesn't do the design work..it does the toolpaths. It's not a distributable program..in other words only the programmer would really know how to use it correctly.

If this helps here is an image of the components.


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With the pictures above and these cutout drawings you should easily be able to understand how it all goes together.

Gene,

The way I do curved handrails is by using a moulder. I create the sides and then insert about 7-8 flat pieces in-between them until I get the desired width. Then I run it through the moulder again to do the top of the rail. The actual bending is done in the field.

Christian

[cmagro]

Gene,

Clarification...only the incline curved rail (the one on the staircase itself) is done using bending rail. The LEVEL curved rail (balcony rail) is done on the bot with side and top profile bits.

Christian

[brendan]

CHRISTIAN,
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THE QUICK REPLY,I ASSUME THE 3 "BRACKETS" AT THE BOTTOM OF PICTURE ABOVE ARE TAKEN FROM THE 3 RADIUS AND BENT ACORDINGLY?..IT IS A VERY INTERSTING WAY OF CURVING GEOMETRICAL STAIRCASES.JUST WOUNDERING
DID YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT IT WITH ANY STEEL WITHIN ,OR DID THE OUTSIDE LAMINATED OSB BOARD
DO THE TRICK BY IT SELF,REGARDS AGAIN BRENDAN

[gene]

Thanks, When you do a long piece on the bot does it just hang off one end and get repositioned or is it cut in sections and joined at the site? The pictures of the tread parts make it alot easier to understand, Thanks again for the help, as of now i have no job to use it on but i still like to learn new things, Absolutely beautiful staircase and balcolny railings

[cmagro]

Brendan,
The 3 brackets are just what you said...the outside laminating is EXTREMELY strong..you'd be very surprised. Add to that the layer of poplar (or whatever) that gets applied too.

Gene,

I'm assuming you mean a long piece of balcony rail. You cut a groove in a spoilboard about 1/4" deep. The blank (i.e. rail not shaped) get a 3/4" thick plywood attached to the bottom that fits in the groove (and is screwed to the bottom of the blank). When you place it in the groove the rail blank will be floating up in the air so the bit doesn't dig into the floor. You shape what you can and then slide the rail in the groove to do the next section.
Sometimes the curves and length of the balcony rail just doesn't fit on the bot...then I just make two pieces.

Christian

[rb99]

All capital letters = SHOUTING!

Cheers,

RIB

[cmagro]

Gene,

Here is a sample of a fitting but same thing applies to a level rail. Picture is worth more than words.

Christian

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[cmagro]

Brendan,

This is the reason why I do curved stairs this way.


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Owner wanted the first two steps to be custom bowed but was not sure on the size or exact shape. I was able to make various templates for her and hold them up so she could pick exactly what she wanted.

More importantly she also decided that she wanted for 3-7 steps to be bowed as well. You can see that added "bow" section that I secured to the front of the step. Being able to do that kind of custom work for the client is not possible when you build the staircase in a shop and drop it in.

Christian

[myxpykalix]

christian...you know how we can tell what a craftsman you are? By the chewed up spoilboard! Man that gets a lot of use!

re: your pic above with the railing- I can see how someone would make that on a router table but how do you program the toolpath to run that profile bit so as not to pull up at the end of the path or to go in a little further for a second pass?

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[wberminio]

I was impressed when I first saw this post a few years ago.

I think you have a great system that can be adapted to other uses.

Thanks for sharing

Erminio

[cmagro]

Jack,

I just extend the toolpaths in my drawing.

Grey line is the fitting
Blue line is the top bit
Yellow line is the side bit

The top bit starts up high and works its way down.
The side bit goes past the fitting and works its way inward (about eight passes)

Bit doesn't need to lift up during the cut.


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[khalid]

Christian Magro ...You are evil genius ;)... I am inspired by your work.. Please keep posting..
Regards

[cmagro]

When MacGyver gives you a compliment like that you know you've done something right!!

Wait until you see the posting I'm getting together for the pool cues I'm working on. While the industry is slow I've taken on a contract job with a custom pool cue company programming and running the CNC equipment. Using .0313 bits mostly for the custom inlay work...very cool. I'll post on a new thread in about a week.

Thanks

Christian

[brendan]

Christian,It is an excellent concept that i am
going to try on my next curved staircase,and as you say it certainly has a lot of advantages
over bending solid strings on a drum.
Can i ask you,what way did you scribe the wall string to risers/threads?....it must have been quite tricky,regards brendan

[cmagro]

Not sure what you mean by that Brendan? Please clarify.

[brendan]

Sorry christian,
i can see it now from picture no9,
what way you did the wall string.
I had too many late sleepless nights (children/nappies/milk bottles)of late,
regards brendan